Caller:  My question is from Revelation 17 verse 11.  A friend and I have been studying through this and we've had trouble with this verse talking about 'the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is one of the seven, goeth into perdition.'  I'm just wondering what the 8th beast is.
Pastor Doug:  All right.  Let me back up and go to verse 9.  For our listeners, we're in Revelation 17 verse 9 we're talking about that woman that sits on the beast.  She's sitting on a beast with seven heads and ten horns.  And it tells us in verse 9: 'Here is the mind that has wisdom.  The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.'  Now not only is Rome called the City of Seven Hills but mountains in the Bible are also symbolic for kingdoms.
Jerusalem is called Mount Zion all through the Bible.  It's called Mount Zion in a number of places anyway.  And it goes on to say in verse 10:  'Now there are seven kings, five are fallen, one is, the other is not yet come, and when he comes, he must continue a short space, and he's also the eighth.'
Caller:  And it goes on to say the beast that was and is, even he is the eighth.
Pastor Doug:  There are seven kings.  Five are fallen.  Now these kingdoms are the powers that persecuted God's people.  Just for the record let me say for everybody, the prophecies in the Bible do not deal with all the kingdoms of the planet.  They deal with the kingdoms that directly affect God's people.
In other words, China was a great empire during the time of Israel, but they're not dealt with in this Bible account because they had no direct affect.  Furthermore it says India was a great power.  It tells us there were some great empires in North and South America, but they had no direct bearing on God's people Israel.
But the kingdoms that persecuted and oppressed God's people, they're the ones we want to take account of.  Now follow me.  Five are fallen.  The five empires that had fallen during the period of Revelation - they were in the past - were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece.  Those five powers had all occupied and persecuted God's people in a prominent way.
Pastor Doug:  They carried them away captive.  Assyria conquered the 10 northern kingdoms.  Egypt enslaved them - we know about that.  Babylon carried away the southern kingdoms.  Greece occupied Palestine and Medo-Persia as well.  So there are five that were fallen.  He goes on to say one is.  The one who is in power when John had this vision, you go to the end of the chapter, it says that woman is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth, that was Rome.  It says he is also of the seventh, and he comes back again.  Now that's because Rome ruled by the Caesars is number six it dies, or it goes through a transformation.  It becomes Rome ruled by a church, which receives a deadly wound and comes back and that's why it's also the eighth.  Now did that make sense?
Caller:  Kind of.
Pastor Doug:  Well let me try it one more time here.
Caller:  What I don't understand is in the beginning of verse 11, it says 'and the beast that was' and if you're saying that's the beast that was - if that's the head that was killed and had the deadly wound and came back, then he should have been referred to in the future. But in the beginning of verse 11 it says 'and the beast that was, and is not.'
Pastor Doug:  Well the reason he's saying 'was' is because he goes all the way to the end and then he looks back so that's why he can use the past tense.  We even do that in our English.  And so the beast that was, and is not, he is also the eighth - that's because Papal Rome, ruled by the church, received a deadly wound in 1798.  It went off the scene it comes back again.
Pastor Doug:  Ok let me state them for you one more time because I'm afraid I confuse people.  There are a total of eight.  Five are fallen.  The five powers that ruled and persecuted God's people were:  Egypt, Assyria,
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece.  Five.  One is:  Rome.  He's also the seventh, and that's when it goes from being Pagan Rome into Papal Rome.  It went through a big transformation where it's now ruled by a church, receives a deadly wound but the deadly wound is healed.  He comes back and goes into power again, it's the eighth.  And those are the two beasts in Revelation 13.