Whirlwind to Heaven

Whirlwind to Heaven

Date: 06/27/2004 
The U.S. has some of the world's most brutal weather, with a typical year bringing several hurricanes, about 10,000 powerful thunderstorms and up to 1,000 of these violently rotating columns of air called tornadoes.
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Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. How about a few amazing facts about tornadoes? The U.S. has some of the world's most brutal weather, with a typical year bringing several hurricanes, about 10,000 powerful thunderstorms and up to 1,000 of these violently rotating columns of air called tornadoes.

In fact, each year in the U.S., there are more tornadoes than every other place on the planet combined, resulting in 80 deaths and more than 1,500 injuries. For example, in one 24-hour period in April 1974, a record 148 tornadoes tore through the Midwest killing 309 people and injuring 5,000.

Tornadoes can occur anywhere in the U.S. at any time of the year. The peak season in the southern states is March through May. The worse tornadoes, classified as F-5, are capable of tremendous destruction with wind speeds of 250 mph or more. Spring, 1999, Oklahoma, recorded one of its deadliest outbreaks ever.

Near Oklahoma City, a massive F-5 tornado stayed on the ground over four hours causing incredible damage. An estimated 2,000 homes were made uninhabitable; 10,000 vehicles were destroyed; 46 died in Oklahoma during the first week of May. Researchers clocked the wind at 318 mph, the fastest surface wind ever recorded on earth.

The awesome power of tornadoes has demonstrated some very strange things, like transporting a thousand-pound bale of hay over five miles; driving a piece of straw through a two-by-four; embedding a plastic music record halfway into a telephone pole; and leaving an 18-wheeler truck dangling from a tree.

On April 24th, 1990, a 100-yard wide tornado touched down in Barton County, Kansas, lifting 88 train cars off the track and stacking them three to four cars high. Tornadoes also do some bizarre things, like putting cows up in treetops.

An unusual incident occurred in 1957 in Thompsonville, Alabama. Thousands of small fish, frogs and crayfish fell from the sky. A tornado had pulled up lake water some miles away. As the wind lost strength, the little animals rained across the countryside.

Fables talk about Texas' Pecklesville riding the tornado, but did you know the Scriptures teach a Bible prophet did ride a tornado to heaven? Stay with us friends. We're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug: 1-800-GOD-SAYS friends. If you'd like to be part of a live, interactive Bible study program, we have lines open right now. So if you wanted to get on the air, Bible Answers Live, pick up your phone now. You have a good chance. The number again is 1-800-463-7297. We welcome your phone calls.

In addition to that, get a pencil handy. We'll be giving out a phone number for free resources and a spectrum of websites where you can download and study a variety of Bible topics. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: My name is Dick Devitt. Good evening Doug.

Pastor Doug: Good evening Dick. It's a beautiful, sunny day in Sacramento.

Pastor Dick: It sure is. It's a lovely day. Why don't we start with a word of prayer as we usually do?

Pastor Doug: Amen

Pastor Dick: Father in heaven, we thank You and we praise You for Your grace and Your love, for the beautiful weather, the nice day that You've given us today. Heavenly Father, we ask that Your Holy Spirit come into these studios and that You would be with us. Be with our listeners and our callers tonight as well. Pour out a blessing of Your understanding and wisdom, Lord, as we open God's Word and seek to hear from You. Clear Pastor Doug's mind as he seeks to answer questions. We praise You Lord. We thank You for Your grace. In Jesus' name, amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen!

Pastor Dick: Well Pastor Doug, a friend of mine is preparing to move down into Tornado Alley this week. I've done everything I can to convince him that he ought to stay in sunny California. But maybe he wants to go see some of those amazing facts about things raining from the air.

Pastor Doug: Chances are he could probably live in Tornado Alley for years and never be harmed by a tornado. But I actually heard of this one town in, I think it's Minnesota, where they only had two homes that were destroyed in 110 years by tornadoes, only two, and both homes were destroyed on the same lot.

Pastor Dick: Oh my.

Pastor Doug: It was destroyed and then rebuilt, and 110 years later, the same house was destroyed and that was it. So, I think if you're in God's hands, you're probably safe. I remember living in the Panhandle of Texas, Dickens, Texas. You would have the tornado warnings. It would pop up on the TV screen no matter what channel you were watching.

You'd go to the door and look out there, and you may or may not see any signs of anything coming, but it was certain conditions that they knew. And some people would say everything got very quiet; and then all of a sudden, it would sound like a train was going by, or hail might start falling as a harbinger of what was coming.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm, um-hmm

Pastor Doug: The reason I thought this would be interesting is, of course, the Bible tells us that Elijah the prophet went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Pastor Dick: Ohhh

Pastor Doug: It doesn't mean a tornado carried him off like Dorothy's house in Wizard of Oz, but it speaks about chariots and horses of fire. Somehow, God sent his armada to pick him up. But there is going to be a time when many people will be caught up into the air and not placed in a tree somewhere, but they're going to be taken back to the place God has prepared.

But there are many misunderstandings about how that's going to happen. Of course, it's not a tornado; and what is commonly called "the rapture," when the Lord catches people up into the air, is not a secret, as some have taught. It is going to be universally known. It'll be like when a tornado goes through your living room. Everyone is going to know about it.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm. Christians have great hope in this event, looking forward to it.

Pastor Doug: The blessed hope. The word "rapture," of course, isn't found in the Bible. It means simply to be carried away with power. Unfortunately, that's where you get the same word "rape."

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: It means to be carried away by force, or to be carried away by power. But the concept of the rapture being a secret, that is not biblical. Many people take the verse where Jesus says He will come as a thief; and they forget it says that when He comes as a thief, the heavens dissolve with a great noise and the elements melt.

The word "thief" doesn't mean quietly. It means it's a surprise.

Pastor Dick: Right, right.

Pastor Doug: So, we have something to help people who want to know more about this subject.

Pastor Dick: Well, we do know that there is lots of confusion in the Christian world about this subject, and so we have a book that Pastor Doug has written called, Anything But Secret. We'd like to make this available to all of our listeners tonight Pastor Doug. Anything But Secret will help to put some meat on the bones, if you will, or open up the window so that you can know the truth about what's going to happen in the rapture.

If you are confused about this, if you think, perhaps, that the teaching that you have learned isn't correct, you want to add this little book to your library. So please call our resource operators or go to the website at AmazingFacts.org. The book is called, Anything But Secret, and if you call and ask for it today, we'll send it to you immediately.

That number is 1-800-835-6747; and ask for Anything But Secret. Pastor Doug, we'll go to the Internet and take a couple of questions before we go to the phones. The first question comes from Jessica, who has a question about Revelation chapter 6, verse 9; and simply, she wants to know who are the souls under the altar as it talks about the fifth seal?

Pastor Doug: Let me read this, Revelation 6, verse 9. "He opened the fifth seal, and I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Then the Lord tells them, "... rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellowservants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, is completed." Some are wondering are there souls that are moaning under an altar in heaven. This is, obviously, some of the symbolic language that you find in Revelation.

It's similar to when the Lord said to Cain, "The blood of your brother, Abel, cries to Me from the ground." Justice is crying out; and so these souls under the altar represent those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, or have been martyred, and they are calling out for a day of justice. And God says, "Be patient, it's coming."

Pastor Dick: Um-Hmm

Pastor Doug: But it doesn't mean that there are a bunch of miserable souls under an altar somewhere moaning in heaven. It's a symbol for justice calling out.

Pastor Dick: Alright, very good. Second question, then, comes from Arlene. She would like to know, "What are the Jewish names for the apostles and why did we rename them? How were the names selected?"

Pastor Doug: Well, some of the confusion comes from the time when Jesus lived. It was a very cosmopolitan city in Jerusalem. You had the language of Latin spoken by the Romans; the language of Greek was the language of education from the influence of Hellenization and Alexander the Great; and then, of course, the native languages of Hebrew and Aramaic.

We know Simon, of course, is a Jewish name you find in the Old Testament. Simeon, that was Peter's name. He's also called "Peter" and "Cephas", - -

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: - - which, I believe, Cephas is the Greek word for "stone."

Pastor Dick: Right

Pastor Doug: You've got Matthew. He's called Matthew Levi. Levi could have been the family that he's from. There are different names that are given for some of the disciples. One list that you find in Luke calls one of them Judas; where, in another Gospel, he's identified by a Greek name, and it's not Judas Iscariot. It's a second Judas. "Judas" was a very common name - -

Pastor Dick: Common name, yes, uh-huh.

Pastor Doug: - - because it's from the tribe of Judah. "Judas" is sort of the Greek form of "Judah." So some of them are given; but if you are looking for 12 Hebrew names, you may not find a list. If you look, for instance, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, the three Hebrew worthies, those were their Babylonian names.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm, um-hmm

Pastor Doug: The Hebrew names are given separately in a list: Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. So you won't find the names of the apostles divided that easily in the New Testament.

Pastor Dick: Okay. We want to go to the phones; and we want to remind our listeners that there are several lines still open, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297 is the number. If you have a Bible-related question for Pastor Doug, it would be a good time right now to call because we have about four or five lines open, and you stand an excellent chance of getting your question into Pastor Doug.

So call now, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. We'll take our first caller in just one minute Doug, but first I want to welcome four new radio stations.

Pastor Doug: Amen!

Pastor Dick: This always gets us excited whenever we hear of new stations being added. These are affiliates of the Three Angels Broadcasting Network: KMEI in Kamiah, Idaho. I hope I pronounced that right, Kamiah. WPJI in Hopkinsville, Kentucky; KBWR FM in Burns, Oregon; and KLBG in Glide, Oregon.

All four of these stations, 3ABN affiliates, are joining the network. We welcome you, and if you are listening to one of these four stations in Kamiah, Idaho; Hopkinsville, Kentucky; Burns or Glide, Oregon, call us and let us know that you're listening. We'd love to hear from you this evening.

So let's go to the phones. We'll take our first caller for this evening. We want to go to Poplar Bluff, Missouri first of all, and talk with Paul who's listening on KLKS. Paul, welcome.

Paul: Hello!

Pastor Doug: Hi Paul

Paul: Hi, how are you doing tonight?

Pastor Doug: Good. Your question?

Paul: Well, my question is I found a couple places in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as "Prince."

Pastor Doug: Okay

Paul: I have looked in the concordance to find out what the Greek definition for that would be; and it looks like it's something like "Archegos" or "Arch." What I'm wondering is does that mean that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

Pastor Doug: No. It's good that you've asked that question because there's a lot of confusion. The word "arch" is not the same as the word "angelos." "Arch" meant "highest. For instance, you know an arch, the top keystone in an arch was the highest, or chief, stone. "Archegos" is speaking of the highest.

It can be translated "Prince" evidently.

Paul: Yes

Pastor Doug: Now, I've got my Hebrew/Greek open here and it's "Archegos: a chief leader, author, captain, prince." It's not an angel.

Paul: Oh okay

Pastor Doug: "Archangel" means "chief messenger."

Paul: Okay

Pastor Doug: So there is a similarity.

Paul: Yeah

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Paul: Okay, very good. Thank you Doug.

Pastor Doug: Thanks, good question.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call. Let's go next to Brooklyn, New York. Gary is listening on WMCA. Hello Gary.

Gary: Hello, good night gentlemen.

Pastor Doug: Good evening

Gary: Yes, I have a question about 2nd Kings. Whenever I read the biography of these kings, I notice that sometimes it ends by saying, "Behold, these things are written in the book of the chronicles." Like, for instance, in 2nd Kings 15:11, it says, "And the rest of the acts of Zachariah, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel." But other places like 2nd Kings 21, verse 17, it would say, "Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh, and all that he did, and his sin that he sinned, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?" I was wondering how come sometimes it's a statement, but other times it's a question?

Pastor Doug: Well, it's interesting. I've never had that question before. Quite honestly, I've never thought it. They had palace scribes that would record these various historical events; and he's asking the question simply in a rhetorical way.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: In other words, "There are more details to the life of Manasseh, but aren't they already written in the chronicles of the king? So I don't need to go into detail."

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: And so he's simply asking. Sometimes it's a statement. Sometimes it's a rhetorical question; but they're saying the same thing. It's already recorded is what they're saying.

Gary: Oh okay. I thought there was some more profound reason for that.

Pastor Dick: I don't think so. There was an abundance of material written so they're just saying, "In addition to everything else that is written, isn't this written also?"

Gary: Oh okay

Pastor Doug: Yeah. I think that's a good answer. Hope that helps a little bit. I'll have to think about it. There may be something more to it, but I've never noticed that before.

Gary: Alright, thanks.

Pastor Doug: Thank you

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Gary. To Orlando, Florida. Calvin is listening at 950 AM. Welcome Calvin.

Calvin: Hi, how are you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good

Calvin: I think my question comes from, I believe it's 1st John chapter 5, verse 16 or 17, or something like that.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Calvin: It speaks about a sin leading to death, as well as a sin leading not unto death. That kind of threw me off when I saw the word "sin"--okay, "sin not leading unto death"? It's like, okay; because I was under the assumption that if you practice sin, you have to reap what you sow--you have to reap. It leads to death you know. The wages of sin is death. So when it said "not leading unto death," it just kind of, like, threw me off a little bit. I'm like, what does that really mean?

Pastor Doug: Well, let's read it for you, 1st John 5:16. "If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and he will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death: and I do not say he should pray about that."

Well for one thing, just right on the surface, when a person sins and they are judged by God by being executed--there's a number of cases--for instance, Ananias and Sapphira; they sinned and they dropped dead. No sense praying for them anymore.

Calvin: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: Once you've died, the Bible says, "...after this, the judgment." Now there are churches that teach you can pray for people after they die and it'll make some difference in how long they suffer in purgatory, or maybe you could be baptized in their behalf. But I think that's heresy.

Calvin: Is that biblical? That's not biblical.

Pastor Doug: No. No, it's heresy. Once a person dies, their fate is sealed.

Calvin: Yes

Pastor Doug: Even Solomon says, "A living dog is better than a dead lion."

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: And so where there's life, there's hope.

Calvin: Yes

Pastor Doug: But John is saying if someone has sinned a sin unto death--and that could also be a reference to the unpardonable sin--once someone has grieved away the Holy Spirit and they have sinned unto death, the Bible says when King Saul committed the unpardonable sin, the priests would not answer him. So they would not intercede for him; neither would the prophets - -

Calvin: Okay

Pastor Doug: - - because he had sinned a sin unto death. Okay? One of the things that Saul did he killed a whole village of priests and they weren't about to intercede for him.

Calvin: So that was an example of, I guess, sin leading unto death?

Pastor Doug: Well, you know, God could even forgive that I believe. Manasseh killed the prophet Isaiah we're told in history and he was forgiven. But Saul had grieved away the Holy Spirit. He was possessed by demons and, evidently, they knew it. It's like when Judas finally rejected. The last time Christ cleansed his feet, he could have repented. He hardened his heart and the Bible says, "Satan entered him; and he went out and it was night."

There was no more intercession after that, see what I'm saying?

Calvin: Yes, do you believe - -

Pastor Doug: So John is saying that if a person has driven away the Holy Spirit, I'm not promising that your prayer in their behalf will have any value.

Calvin: -- If you grieve or quench the Holy Spirit?

Pastor Doug: Yeah

Calvin: Okay, alright.

Pastor Doug: Now I believe that we've got a book on the unpardonable sin, Pastor Dick. I'm trying to remember what the title is right now. Matter of fact, I'll bet that if Calvin calls the resource number and says, "I'd like to find out about getting the sermon book on the unpardonable sin," they'll know what that is.

Pastor Dick: I think they will, yeah. Calvin, if you'll call our resource operators and just ask for the book on the unpardonable sin, they'll send it to you tonight. It's 1-800-835-6747, and thanks for the call. Let's go next to Fallon, Nevada. Theresa is on a cell phone and a first-time caller. Welcome Theresa.

Theresa: Hi. My question is I would like to know will the wicked be slain with the brightness of Christ's coming, or only the lawless one? Or will the wicked continue to live after Christ's coming?

Pastor Doug: Well it sounded to me like you're actually quoting from Thessalonians. It, of course, does say that, "Then that wicked one will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming." Now "that wicked one" is speaking of the devil; because he's called that.

Theresa: The devil is destroyed at Christ's coming?

Pastor Doug: Well, I should say the anti-Christ power. If they're destroyed, if the leaders are destroyed, the people are destroyed with them. The Bible says the Lord will come and He is a consuming fire. And again, it speaks of the day of the Lord as "flee from the wrath to come." Is it--where is it? Isaiah 66, Pastor Dick, where it says, "For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many" in that day.

Many of the Scriptures in the Bible talk about the slain of the Lord covering the earth from one end to the other; and that's Jeremiah 25:33. So we believe that the only way you can interpret those Scriptures is that the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. You there?

Theresa: Okay. Yeah I'm here. I'm thinking; somebody was telling me that the wicked go on living after His coming, and so I was needing some Scripture references.

Pastor Doug: Well, of course, you've got 2nd Thessalonians 2:8, "Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming." That other one was Isaiah 66:16, about by fire and his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh.

But, yeah, I think the Scriptures are very clear that life does not go on. Let me give you one more Scripture that will be helpful, 2nd Peter chapter 3, and if you start with verse 10 it'll say, "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens pass away with a great noise, and the elements melt with fervent heat." So when the Lord comes as a thief, what's happening to the elements?

Theresa: They're melting.

Pastor Doug: So, is anyone alive? I mean, "elements" mean the rocks and everything is melting.

Theresa: Yeah

Pastor Doug: So the earth goes molten when Jesus comes. Life isn't going on.

Theresa: Okay

Pastor Doug: Does that make sense?

Theresa: Yes

Pastor Doug: You would enjoy - -

Theresa: And I was thinking there was one in Revelation that was similar to that too.

Pastor Doug: Well I'm looking here right now; there probably is. Yeah, it says, "...she shall be utterly burned with fire," Revelation 18:8, speaking of Babylon and her children, which is a symbolic term for the lost.

Theresa: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: The book we're offering for free tonight actually covers the bases of what you are asking about.

Theresa: Oh okay

Pastor Doug: It talks about both the second coming and the tribulation.

Theresa: Okay

Pastor Doug: So just ask for, Anything But Secret, and we'll send it to you free.

Theresa: Okay

Pastor Doug: Matter of fact, we'll cut that price 50% [chuckles]

Theresa and Pastor Dick: [Laughs]

Theresa: Great!

Pastor Dick: Theresa, call the resource number, 1-800-835-6747.

Theresa: Okay, thank you

Pastor Dick: Alright, thanks for the call. Ask for Anything But Secret and we'll send it right out to you. Let's go to, I think it's Yakima, Washington, if I'm reading this correctly. Tony are you in Yakima?

Tony: Yeah

Pastor Dick: Welcome to the program.

Tony: Hi. Pastor Doug, I would like to ask you about the--I was reading in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, and I've seen here, it says, "I beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him."

Pastor Doug: Okay

Tony: Then it goes down here in verse three, it says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there coming a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed...." Well, I was wondering what in the world causes the people of the Lord to fall away, and can the people of the Lord, indeed, fall away?

Pastor Doug: Well, there are, obviously, many who will profess to know the Lord that fall away; because that's why Jesus says to a great multitude, they're calling Him, "Lord, Lord." He says, "I don't know you. Depart from me, ye who work lawlessness." So there are a lot of people who are going to reject the truth of God, and they fall away.

Of course, the falling away here isn't talking about the world. The world fell way back in Adam's day. It's talking about a falling away in the church. Actually, there was a major falling away in the church that came, even before Paul died; who was it that said, "The mystery of iniquity doth already work"?

Tony: Yeah

Pastor Doug: Matter of fact, there it is, 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, right under my nose. It's in the same chapter.

Tony: Yeah. The impression I got when I looked at this in verse 3, was it sort of comes across to me as though to say that the great falling away, as though it's going to happen sort of suddenly, and in a short, brief period of time; like it's something that's going to get a lot of people to fall away all at once, in a short period of time, like a major, deceiving of some kind.

Pastor Doug: Well, you know, there are revivals that have come through history. That's where people turn to the Lord; and there have been backslidings, and that's where great numbers fall away. The golden calf experience was a great backsliding for God's people. There will be a major falling away just before the second coming.

That's why Jesus said, "If it were possible, even the very elect will be deceived." So a lot of professed Christians are going to give up their faith at that time because of the compelling, convincing deceptions of the beast power. Does that make sense?

Tony: Yeah. So, in your opinion, do you think this could be referring to the rapture period, or the rapture time?

Pastor Doug: Well, the, eh--what do you call it--the left behind scenario has confused a lot of people about the chronology of Jesus' coming. I think there are going to be many people very disappointed when they're not caught away and they see trouble is coming.

Pastor Dick: Amen, uh-hmm

Pastor Doug: Oh Tony, I apologize. We take a break and the clock has caught up with us. This is just a break, as I said friends; and it's a good chance for you to get a drink of water, get your pencil, write down our website, and explore.

They've got a place back east Pastor Dick called, Endless Caverns. They claim they've never found the end, but our website sometimes looks like that. It just has link after link of study material I think you'll really enjoy. Go to AmazingFacts.com; and there are also free resources we give away during this program.

You might jot that down, 1-800-835-6747, for any of the sermon books that we are offering and that would, hopefully, be a blessing to you. We're going to be back. We pick up more momentum the second half with more Bible questions so pick up and call in, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, and we'll return in a moment.


Pastor Doug: Welcome back. For those of you who have joined us along the way, this is Bible Answers Live, a live, interactive, international Bible study. If you would like to participate

with a phone call in North America, it's a toll-free number. That number is 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: My name is Dick Devitt. We want to take our first caller for this part of the program Pastor Doug. From Sacramento, California, Blake is on a cell phone listening to KFIA. Hi Blake.

Blake: How are you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good. How can we help you?

Blake: You have in the Old Testament the Ten Commandments. God says, "There shall be no other gods before Me"; and He also says later, "I am a jealous God."

Pastor Doug: Uh-huh

Blake: But since jealousy is sin and by saying, "I am a jealous God," wouldn't therefore God be sinning?

[Cross talk, unintelligible]

Pastor Doug: No. Well first of all, God doesn't sin.

Blake: Right, I know, exactly.

Pastor Doug: Right, and I'm sure you understand that; but there are words that you find in the Ten Commandments that you have to look at the surrounding context. For instance, the Bible says, "Thou shalt not covet." Coveting is not a sin. "Covet" means to desire. Paul says in the New Testament, "Covet earnestly the best gifts," meaning spiritual gifts. Coveting is not a sin.

Coveting your neighbor's house, wife, and it goes on through your servants, so forth; coveting something that you have no right to is a sin. So in the same way jealousy is not wrong, what husband is not jealous for his wife? For instance, 2nd Corinthians 11:2, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy."

When you are jealous of somebody else' success or their property, that is inappropriate, you know what I'm saying?

Blake: Okay

Pastor Doug: And, of course, there are even people who are obsessed with jealousy that have no grounds for it and it ruins their marriage.

Blake: But wouldn't God--I mean, us as servants to God--be, kind of, property to Him? You see where I'm going with this?

Pastor Doug: Well, we are. That's what Paul is saying. He says, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy"; godly jealousy, meaning when you love somebody and they give that love that you have a right to to somebody else, it hurts. It's a natural emotion; and you are jealous to have that love exclusively. When you're married, you want to have that romantic love exclusively; and you have a right to.

Blake: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: God is saying, "I made you. I redeemed you. When you give your love and affection to the enemy, it hurts Me." And He's jealous for us with a godly jealousy. See what I'm saying?

Blake: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: So, in that sense, the word is a general term that can be used in a good or bad sense. For instance, Jesus became incensed; He was jealous for the holiness of God's house. When they were buying and selling cattle in the temple of the Lord and turned it into a flea market, Jesus was jealous for the reverence for His Father; and it drove Him to drive all the moneychangers out of the temple.

Blake: Right

Pastor Doug: That's a godly jealousy.

Blake: Hmm

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Blake: Okay, thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Hopefully that helps a little bit. Thank you Blake.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Blake. To Fairfield, California, Pat on a cell phone listening to KFIA. Hi Pat.

Pat: Hi

Pastor Dick: And your question please?

Pat: Yes. My question is I have a situation where a young lady, who's now older and married and has children and everything, but accepted Christ at an early age, and then even at, maybe age 13, sincerely gave her heart to the Lord and lived for the Lord. Right prior to getting married though at [tape skips] age, had an abortion out of anger; and then also had had some history of molestation and things like that. Later she admitted to the fact that she had feelings of possible homosexuality; - -

Pastor Doug: Oh my

Pat: - - never indulged in it, never did it, but had those thoughts. And so my question is, was she saved, is the question?

Pastor Doug: Well now, you're delving into the mysteries of a soul, and whether her conversion was genuine when she first came to the Lord, only God knows that. The Bible says man looks on the outside and God looks on the heart; and I can't judge what may have been in that person's heart.

But then again, Jesus said you'll them by their fruits. So, "Not everyone that says, 'Lord, Lord'...but he that does the will of my Father in heaven." If someone is professing a love for Jesus but they're not walking with the Lord, do they love Him?

Pastor Dick: Um-hm

Pat: Okay

Pastor Doug: Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Pat: Right

Pastor Doug: So if you are going to judge by the evidence of the fruit, it doesn't look good. But just because a person is tempted, you said this individual was tempted with inappropriate thoughts, everybody's tempted that way.

Pat: Right

Pastor Doug: And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a sin. Even Jesus was tempted in His thinking.

Pat: Right

Pastor Doug: Acting out or fulfilling those things is a different situation.

Pat: Right. This person has sense, though, you know; because those things happened earlier in her life when she had sinned, repented and now knows some of the damage that was--especially in the abortion clinic, --

Pastor Doug: Yeah

Pat: -- you know, that's a horrible thing; and so the affects of what really took place has hit her and she knows. She has come to repentance in that area, and in the other area. So her question would be, or was to me, you know, at the time that those things happened, "I thought I was saved," or "Was I saved? So, yeah.

Pastor Doug: Right. Well, you shouldn't spend all of your time second guessing what the relationship used to be. The most important thing is, are you saved now?

Pat: Right

Pastor Doug: And will you make that decision, or renew that decision, to surrender your life to the Lord? I would pray that that would be what they're after. Alright?

Pat: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug: Alright, God bless.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Pat. Let's go to Milford, Connecticut. Walter is listening on WMCA. Walter, welcome, and what's your question tonight?

Walter: Good evening Pastor Doug

Pastor Doug: Good evening

Walter: I'd like to know about Revelation, it has to do with the rapture; not the rapture, the great tribulation, excuse me.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Walter: Okay. How would we know when the first seal happens, the very first seal? Some people are saying in the churches that it has started already. I'm not too sure of that; like some people think the great tribulation started with 9/11, for instance.

Pastor Doug: Right

Walter: How can we be sure when it starts?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, there's no question 9/11 was a great tribulation. Some people think that AIDS is one of the plagues of the noisome sore; and I don't believe either of those things to be true. Nine-eleven, of course, was a devastating tragedy, but if you ask people in Japan, Hiroshima was much worse. There's a difference between 3,000, which is tragic, and 100,000.

Walter: Yes

Pastor Doug: So there have been all kinds of tragedies. When the great tribulation comes, there are going to be global plagues. You asked a question about the seven seals and I'd like to go back to that, Walter. There are two views that are prominent among Christians on how to interpret the seals.

I'm going to try and make this simple. One is called the historic interpretation. The other is called futurism.

Walter: Right, right.

Pastor Doug: The futuristic interpretation takes all of the seven seals and it puts them at the end of time. I don't agree with that. I go along with many of the Protestant Reformers and people like, Spurgeon, and Wesley.

Walter: Spurgeon, right.

Pastor Doug: They believed in the historic interpretation of those prophecies. In other words, let me give you something very simple. In Revelation, you've got a series of visions, and they all have to do with seven. You've got seven churches; seven seals; seven trumpets; seven plagues, there's a lot of sevens.

Walter: That's right

Pastor Doug: The seven churches cover the religious history of the church from the first coming to the second coming of Jesus. That's the historic view. The seven seals, sometimes known as the four horses of the apocalypse, - -

Walter: Yes

Pastor Doug: - - because you know the first four of those seven seals are horses. The seven seals are the political history of the church from the first to the second coming.

Walter: Oh right, right

Pastor Doug: And the first seal is past. Matter of fact, we're getting near the seventh seal now.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: The seven trumpets give a military history. It talks about the war between the Muslims and the Christians, and crusades and all that's in there, from the first to the second coming. So there is a broad, sweeping panorama in these visions that covers a lot more than just the last few years of earth's history.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Walter: Right, right

Pastor Doug: The futurists believe that once you get to Revelation 4, it's only talking about the end of time. Well, that would make Revelation a useless book for the first 1,900 years of the church's history.

Walter: Oh I see.

Pastor Doug: You know what I'm saying?

Walter: Yes

Pastor Doug: But there is information in there that has been a benefit that has outlined prophecy from the first coming to the second coming. That's why John says "the time is at hand."

Walter: Yes, but what's the first sign of the great tribulation when it starts, maybe I should say?

Pastor Doug: Well, I'll tell you what the first sign would be. First of all, the Bible says, "When they say, 'Peace and safety;' then sudden destruction comes."

Walter: Yes

Pastor Doug: When they begin to make political laws that require you to break the law of God, the same way that it happened for Daniel when he was told to pray to the king, the way it happened for, - -

Walter: Idolatry, right.

Pastor Doug: - - yeah. They told Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to bow to the image or they would be killed. They told Mordecai the whole Jewish nation was going to be killed because he wouldn't bow to Haman. And in the last days, there will be laws that will begin to compel God's people to break God's Commandments and they have to choose: "Do I obey God or man," like Peter said.

And so that will be a sign that the tribulation is coming, when those issues bubble to the surface. What do you think Pastor Dick? Did that make sense?

Pastor Dick: Yup. That makes sense.

Walter: One quick thing. So it would be a literal seven years of great tribulation now?

Pastor Doug: My personal opinion, and now it's my opinion, is that the tribulation may be three and a half years. You do not find anywhere in the Bible where you find the phrase "seven years of tribulation."

Walter: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug: But we have an advanced lesson study that deals with prophecy. Why don't you do me a favor? Can you get on the Internet Walter?

Walter: No.

Pastor Doug: No?

Walter: I'm with people that don't have a computer.

Pastor Doug: You're one of those people. If you mail us, we will send you the advanced Bible study set and it has these prophecies you're asking about, the tribulation. Oh our book tonight that we're offering, the second half of the book, Anything But Secret. Just call the phone number. We'll send it to you free. It's a toll-free call.

Walter: Thank you very much.

Pastor Dick: Alright Walter.

Walter: God bless and have a good evening.

Pastor Doug: You too.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call, 1-800-835-6747. Call and ask for Anything But Secret, 1-800-835-6747. Pastor Doug, let's go to Sacramento, California. Michelle is on KFIA. Welcome Michelle.

Michelle: Hi, how are you?

Pastor Doug: Very good, how are you?

Michelle: I'm doing great. I just have a quick question. If you could give me any Scriptures dealing with free will verses our steps being ordered? I get a little confused on where I should stand with that.

Pastor Doug: Well join the club!

Michelle: [Laughs]

Pastor Dick: [Chuckles]

Pastor Doug: This is one of the issues that has been very divisive and confusing for the Christian church for, oh, the last 500 years. Let me tell you what I believe the Bible teaches. God knows all things.

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: And God desires everyone to be saved. The Bible says, "God, who would have all men to be saved..."; but that doesn't mean that we have no choice. If we have no choice, then you may as well throw your hands in the air and say, "Let's eat and drink. Tomorrow, we die, and if God saves us, He saves us."

But obviously, we do have a choice. That's why Moses said, "Choose ye." That's why Joshua said, "Choose ye." That's why Jesus said, "Whosoever will." That means you can make a choice with your will.

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: So even in John 3:16, "Whosoever believes in Him," we can choose to believe. It is the Spirit of God that works on our hearts; and in His providence, He, sometimes, in His wisdom, will work a little harder to get some people's attention than others.

Pastor Dick: Amen

Pastor Doug: I mean, you know, look what He did for Paul on the road to Damascus.

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: And that's a mystery I don't understand.

Michelle: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: But I do know the Bible says, "He is not willing that any should perish."

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: Correct? Peter tells us that. So, and then, of course, let me see, where are we, 2nd Timothy 2, verses 20 and 21. "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth; some of honor, some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself of these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared for every good work."

So we can choose to be a vessel of honor.

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: That's the good news of the Gospel, is the Lord calls everyone. "Many of called, few are chosen." And what that means is many are called, few choose to respond to that call. God has predetermined He wants everyone saved, but not everyone makes that decision.

Michelle: But does He know who, I mean, in His big book of life and His, - -

[Cross talk]

Pastor Doug: Yes He does.

Michelle: - - does He already know that, "Okay Michelle, when she turns 29, she's going to believe in Me," or is He sitting back going, "I hope that she believes in Me. I hope that she accepts Jesus into her heart at some time"?

Pastor Doug: God knows. See, because God is omniscient, He knows all things.

Michelle: Even though we don't [laughs]

Pastor Doug: Yeah. Let me see if I could explain it in a simple illustration. You've got a traffic helicopter and he's hovering above a busy highway. He sees a car pass as it goes into a tunnel on top of a hill; - -

Michelle: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: - - and on the other side, the pilot can see that two semi's have just decided to pass on that same two lanes. The pilot knows there's going to be a collision in the tunnel.

Michelle: Right

Pastor Doug: He's not making it happen. The choices of the drivers are making it happen, but he has advanced knowledge. God, by virtue of His position, He can see ahead, but He's not making it happen. We do have a choice.

Michelle: Right. That's a good illustration.

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Michelle: Um-hmm. Thank you very much for your ministry.

Pastor Doug: Thank you. God bless you.

Pastor Dick: Thank you for the call. Let's go next to Orlando, Florida. Solomon is listening on 950 AM. Solomon, welcome to the program.

Solomon: Yes, good night.

Pastor Doug: Hi. You have to get real close. I can barely hear you.

Solomon: Yes, hello?

Pastor Dick: Yes sir

Solomon: Yes, my question is about Jesus Christ and His heritage, and His language. From reading, I understand that the Bible was originally written in Aramaic. Is that correct?

Pastor Doug: Much of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic and Hebrew.

Solomon: Yes, and Jesus Christ spoke the language of Aramaic?

Pastor Doug: Probably, yes.

Solomon: Well, the Jews, the current-day Jews that live in Israel, what language do they speak?

Pastor Doug: They speak a modernized version of Hebrew. Now I've been there twice and I've talked to people about this. They speak a combination of Aramaic, Yiddish and Hebrew.

Solomon: Yes

Pastor Doug: Language is constantly evolved, Solomon. English, today, is different from English in the days of Lincoln, which was different from the English in the days of Jefferson.

Solomon: Yes

Pastor Doug: But one reason Hebrew has not evolved that much is because they still have ancient manuscripts that helps them sort of keep some of the old words.

Solomon: Yes. So in Ethiopia--which people speak Aramaic, right? They consider themselves Jews. What I don't understand is if Hebrew is a mixture of Aramaic and other languages and the original tongue was Aramaic - -

Pastor Doug: Where did you hear that the Ethiopians speak Aramaic?

Solomon: Oh, from reading history books.

Pastor Doug: There may be Coptic Ethiopians that do read Aramaic.

Solomon: Yes

Pastor Doug. My next door neighbor is Ethiopian and I believe they speak an Ethiopian tongue, a native tongue; and there may be similarities between Aramaic, but I haven't heard that.

Solomon: What I'm saying is these people are claiming to be Jews and they speak the language of Aramaic, which Christ spoke. So if Christ spoke the language of Aramaic and He's a Jew, that means He comes from these people, the Hebrew people.

Pastor Doug: No. I don't know where you're getting this information, but I believe that you are misinformed Solomon. Are you wondering if Jesus came from Ethiopia?

Solomon: No I'm not wondering. I have read, and I've understood, that He spoke the language of Aramaic.

Pastor Doug: Well, but the question is, did He get the language from them, or did some of the Ethiopians get the language from the Ethiopian treasurer in Acts chapter 8, that went from Israel to Ethiopia and brought some of the religion? That's probably where the Scriptures and the language came from.

Solomon: Okay. So in Psalms 87 where it talks about, "His foundation is in the holy mountains. The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah. I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah."

Pastor Doug: What is your question?

Solomon: I'm saying who would this man be in Psalms 87 from the land of Ethiopia?

Pastor Doug: Well now see, you misread. I thought you might be doing that. You're trying to make that Psalm say that the man who is born there is from Ethiopia. It's saying all of these pagan nations are going to say, "This man was born in the holy mountains of God," speaking back of Israel again. It's not saying that they're born in Rahab and these other countries.

They're talking about the Gentiles flowing to Zion. We need to move along Solomon. We're talking in circles and there are people waiting. Sorry.

Pastor Dick: Let's go to Staten, New York. John is listening on WMCA. John, welcome to the program.

John: Good evening Pastor Dick Devitt and Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: Good evening John, and your question please?

John: My question is about the church age, the tribulation. Now the church period we're in is 1,900 years, is that correct?

Pastor Doug: Well you mean from the time of Christ?

John: Yes

Pastor Doug: If we date it from about Pentecost, or the resurrection, it would be a little more than 1,900 years. What do you want to know?

John: I've heard you before because I listen to my other station, and I know you don't agree with the fellow, but I do listen to him; and, of course, I ask God to give me discernment because I'm blind. I can't read the Bible anymore. I'm only blind six years.

Pastor Doug: Are you talking about the teaching that says the church age is over?

John: Yes. He did send me the book; and I do believe because the Holy Spirit isn't in the church anymore. People go to church today, it's like, um, how do I say, um, they don't go, uh--it's like a show today.

Pastor Doug: Well you know what? You need to come and visit our church, John,- -

Pastor Dick: It's not a show.

Pastor Doug: - - because I'll tell you, the Holy Spirit was there, and we are reading the Word, and people are finding Christ, and I would have to respectfully disagree with this teaching that is promulgated on another Christian radio station that the age of the church is gone; because the Bible tells us that Jesus' body is the church.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: And He says the gates of hell will not prevail against it and the church is going to be there when the Lord comes back. We do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. So there's so much evidence on that. It's really a bizarre teaching. The same person, John, who says the age of the church is done, also said Jesus was coming in 1996, so just take that and put it in the hopper. Who's next Pastor Dick? Do we have time?

Pastor Dick: Uh yes, I think so. We want to talk with Richard in Yakima, Washington, KSOH is the station. Welcome Richard.

Richard: Hello

Pastor Doug: Hi

Pastor Dick: Yes sir

Richard: Hi, thank you for letting me in. I have another Revelation question for you.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Richard: I've been reading periodically off and on for the last couple of years about people overseas, like in Europe and stuff, testing out computer chips - -

Pastor Doug: Yes

Richard: - - for either identification purposes or for purchasing cash goods, and that type of thing.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Richard: I'm curious to know what your opinion is, if you think that is in reference to Revelation 13, when they're talking about the mark?

Pastor Doug: Indirectly. Please let me explain. The mark of the beast is not a credit card, or a bar code, or a computer chip, but there's no question in my mind that the beast power will utilize modern technology to track those who are adherents and those who buy or sell. You know, even when you go to the market now, you check yourself out with your card.

The day may come where you have a wristband that has a chip in it. Most Americans are too independent to let anybody embed a chip in them. That's going to be a hard sell, but that technology may be used Richard. But the mark of the beast, itself, is not a computer chip. In other words, God is not going to say, "Whatever you do, don't get that chip and I'll save you. If you get the chip, you're lost."

God deals with moral issues, not with computers. It's a question of who you worship and not whether or not you've got someone who held you down and tattooed or put a chip under your skin, you know what I'm saying?

Richard: Okay

Pastor Doug: We have a book we'll send you for free. Call our resource number. It's called, The Mark of the Beast. We'd love to send it to you okay?

Richard: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thank you.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Richard. To San Diego, Mara is listening on KPRZ. Mara, we have about two minutes. Can we answer your question quickly?

Mara: Thank you. Yes. It's similar to one of the first callers you had, but we'd like to know if you can give any verses to further substantiate where Paul said, "I'm willing to be absent from the body but present with the Lord."

Pastor Doug: Well, what Paul is talking about is there are two ways that a believer is conscious. One is, of course, in our bodies alive; the next one is after the resurrection when we're caught up to meet the Lord. Those are the only two choices.

Mara: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: But that doesn't mean as soon as a person dies the resurrection takes place because Jesus is clear: the resurrection is the last day. And you can look at John chapter 8; and, of course, 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, "The Lord will descend from heaven. The dead in Christ will rise and be caught up to meet Him in the air." That's 1st Thessalonians 4, verse 13 through 16.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Mara: Well, does the spirit go up, or is that talking about the body [cross talk]?

Pastor Doug: God is going to give us new bodies in a twinkling of an eye.

Mara: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: What confuses people is they have the idea that once you die, that your spirit is conscious somewhere until the second coming. We live in a dimension of time that God

doesn't live in, Mara. God is eternal. If you're a Christian and you should die, your next conscious thought is the second coming, and you're caught up to meet the Lord.

Your spirit isn't floating around in limbo or purgatory or anything.

Mara: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: There's a lot of fairy tales out there; but you just have no consciousness until the second coming takes place.

Mara: Okay, great.

Pastor Doug: We'll send you a study guide on that for free.

Mara: Great!

Pastor Doug: And it's called, "Are the Dead Really Dead?"

Mara: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug: Hopefully that will help.

Pastor Dick: Mara, call our resource number that I've been giving this evening, 1-800-835-6747, and ask - -

Pastor Doug: You know Pastor Dick, there's another book that she could ask for, Spirits of the Dead, by Joe Crews.

Pastor Dick: Spirits of the Dead or "Are the Dead Really Dead?" Either one, or both, and we'll send them to you tonight. Thanks for the call, bye bye. Pastor Doug, there's the music.

Pastor Doug: Ouch! Oh friends, we're sorry if we didn't get to your call tonight. We pray by the grace of the Lord you'll give us another opportunity. Next week, God willing, we'll be coming your way again. Keep in mind that we attempt to stay on your station where you're hearing this; and there's somebody who is listening in your neighborhood, or your radio footprint, who believes in this, and they're helping to sponsor it.

We'd love to have you help us stay on the air in that area. If you're being edified or encouraged by the program, then stand with us and send us a note of encouragement. We'd love to hear from you. You can contact us on the Internet. You can log on and even donate. It's so simple on the Internet, and we'd be grateful for you to do that.

We give away things as you can hear all through the program. We give them away online because we live by faith. Until next week, we want you to remember, it's really all about Jesus, the Truth that will set you free.




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