The Carmania

Date: 01/27/2008 
On August 4, 1914, the magnificent British Luxury Liner Carmania was three days out of New York City with 800 passengers on her way to Liverpool, when she learned from another ship that England had declared war on Germany.
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Pastor Batchelor: Hello friends. This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? On August 4, 1914, the magnificent British Luxury Liner Carmania was three days out of New York City with 800 passengers on her way to Liverpool, when she learned from another ship that England had declared war on Germany. As soon as the Carmania arrived in Liverpool, the British admiralty assumed command. Within one week of entering port as a first class cruise liner, the Carmania was converted into a war ship in the service of the Royal Navy. The refrigerated food stores, originally intended for the cruise passengers, have been left on board so officers and crew ate very well.

On September 2nd, the Carmania was assigned to the West Indies with orders to scout the vicinity for enemy ships. Three days later, the lookout sighted a ship off the coast of Trinidad. At that point, the Carmania crew might have thought that they had entered the twilight zone. That ship, spied in the distance from the decks of the Carmania, was the Carmania or at least a ship that bore her name and looked exactly like her. The other vessel was in fact a German Luxury Liner called the Cap Trafalgar that had also been converted into a war ship and then disguised in every outward detail as the Carmania. Because of the short range guns which had been installed on the German ship, she could only be effective in battle if she could hit close enough to the enemy. So the Cap Trafalgar was designed as a British Liner Carmania and that was the German ship’s downfall. On September 14th, the disguised Cap Trafalgar was attacked and sunk by the real Carmania.

You see that incredible [???] encountered in the ocean by the Carmania was a (inaudible 01:57) just as the Cap Trafalgar was redesigned, even to the dismantling of one of its smoke stacks to look like the Carmania the Carmania was also redesigned and repainted so that it could get closer to the enemy. In the process, a dummy smoke stack was added to the British ship. That’s right. When the two vessels coincidentally meet at mid-Atlantic in September 14, 1914 each was masquerading as the other. With 7 seas to get lost in, they somehow both found their imposter. The Bible teaches in the last days, Satan will perform his masterpiece of impersonation.

Stay with us friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Batchelor: Welcome listening friends to a fresh serving of Bible answers live. And if you are joining us for the first time, this is a live international interactive Bible study. And we invite you to pick up your phones and give us a call. We have several lines open right now and this is a good time to call in if you like to get your Bible question on tonight’s broadcast. That toll free number is 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. And my name is Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening listening friends. Pastor Doug, before we open the phone lines and open the word, let’s start with a prayer.

Dear Father, once more we thank you this opportunity where we can study the Bible together. We ask your blessing upon the program. Be with those who are listening father. And give us wisdom here in the studio. For this we ask in Jesus name. Amen.

Pastor Batchelor: Amen.

Jean Ross: That opening fact that you shared at the beginning of the program remarkable. You can just imagine the (expression?) of the sailors in the ship who looked out across the ocean through the mist and they see the ship that looks like identical to theirs, a counterfeit.

Pastor Batchelor: That is quite a story in history. Not only had the German ship been redesigned to look like the British Liner that the British liner when it went to port was redesigned to look like the same German ship and neither knew the other was doing this. And then the encounter each other out in the middle of the ocean and then engaged in a battle. It must have been very surreal for both sides.

But you know the Bible tells us that Satan is a master of masquerade. And one of the things, of course, Jesus spend so much time talking about was counterfeit Christianity. But especially in the last days, we’re warned that Satan will seek to impersonate Christ. Of course, all through history there have been false Christ and false prophets. You can read about that in Jesus discourse about the Second Coming found in Matthew 24:24 but this is gonna be a unique occurrence when Satan really appears as Christ not just for a few people or to deceive a small group as some cult raider but probably his image is gonna be broadcast around the world and the nations are going to announce Christ has come. And he’ll speak some of the same words. He’ll probably look something like popular conceptions of what Jesus looks like and perform some miracles.

The devil does have some limited power to create illusions. And then he’ll do it to deceive and we just need to know that the Bible foretells this. That’s why Jesus said if they say “Lo, here is Christ, or there believe it not,” and not only can Satan impersonate Christ. I think the devil is setting up the world for this deception because they don’t know how he’s coming. You see when Jesus came the first time, the church, God’s people the Jews, they did not know how the messiah was coming. They had misinterpreted the scriptures regarding the messiah’s first coming. So they weren’t prepared to receive him when he came the first time. The devil is doing the same thing in the last days. The church at large is confused about how Jesus is coming back and some believed in the rapture, the secret rapture and a number of things that are very popular, the left behind scenario and there are a lot of things connected with that just are not biblical that are really new popular comic book scenarios of the Second Coming and people need to know that they can be deceived. And that’s why we have this very important offer tonight to help people know the truth about the subject of the return and this great deception.

Jean Ross: Absolutely. It’s called “The Secret Rapture.” It’s a booklet written by Joe Crews dealing with important subject of Christ Second Coming. How will Jesus come? To receive that free offer, call 1-800-835-6747 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the little booklet “The Secret Rapture.” And we’ll be happy to send that out to you.

Pastor Doug, we have some questions this evening that’s come in. The first, who are the 7 spirits of God mentioned in Revelation chapter 4 and elsewhere in the Book of Revelation.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, some have wondered when they read this, I think four times in Revelation, it speaks of the 7 spirits. And some have wondered is there one Holy Spirit? Are there 7 Holy Spirits? And I think the key to understanding that is found in Isaiah chapter 11 and you go to verse 2, speaking of the Messiah. As a matter of fact, in chapter 11 verse 1, it talks about that a stem shall come forth out of Jessie and a branch shall grow out of his roots. It’s talking about Jesus who is the offspring of David, the descendant of Jessie. And it says in verse 2, “The spirit of the Lord will rest upon him.” This is the Holy Spirit, when Christ was baptized, the Holy Spirit came down. And then it goes on to say that the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of council, the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the Lord. So including the first one, the spirit of the Lord, and those other six, that’s seven characteristics of the Holy Spirit. And James says, “If any man likes wisdom, let him ask of God.” Well it’s the spirit of God that gives wisdom. This is what Solomon asked for. He really prayed for the Holy Spirit when he asked for that gift of wisdom. So there are you know a number of facets that are gifts of the spirit that are divided. And seven is a perfect number. It represents the completeness of the spirit. So no, the Holy Spirit is not divided up in to seven different Holy Ghost, so to speak.

Jean Ross: Okay. Very good. Second question, this is an important one. Does a person need to be baptized in order to be saved?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you know in John chapter 3 when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, he says “Except you’re born of the water and the spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.” And I do believe there he is talking about water baptism and spirit baptism. We need both at the baptism of Jesus. He was washed in the water and then the Holy Spirit came down unless you’re born of the water and the spirit. But that water baptism is something that is our choice. The spirit baptism is God’s choice. If you read in Mark chapter 6:16, Jesus said “whoever believes him and is baptized, whoever believe not will be condemned.” Well, you noticed he doesn’t say whoever who is not baptized will be condemned. Baptism is something every Christian who is able to be baptized should be baptized. Obviously, there are some who maybe did not know the truth on this subject or maybe because of illness or they were imprisoned or like the thief on the cross, just couldn’t be baptized by immersion that’s not gonna be an obstacle to their salvation if in their hearts, they’re seeking to come to the Lord. Baptism is for a Christian with a wedding ceremony is for marriage. It doesn’t mean two people start loving each other because they get married. They get married because they love each other. They don’t start accepting each other when they get married. They get married because they have accepted each other. And so we can accept Jesus and if something goes wrong, we can’t be baptized. Well, it’s not an obstacle. But I don’t know why a Christian would not be baptized when it’s clearly commanded. It is so the last words of Jesus should be first priority for Christian, “go ye there and be baptized.” So it is very important. We have that booklet we can offer.

Jean Ross: We do. We have a study guide dealing with the subject of baptism called “Purity and Power.” And we’ll be happy to send it out to anyone who would call our resource number 1-800-835-6747. We’re gonna go to the phone lines and Alrich is calling from the town of Malaysia. Rich, welcome to the program. Rich, are you there?

Rich: Yeah.

Jean Ross: And your question tonight?

Rich: It’s (Lola Carlo?)

Jean Ross: Oh okay. Thank you.

Pastor Batchelor: And how can we help you?

Rich: I have a question about the prophecies in Daniel 12, the following the 12 (nights?) the 1335 day prophecy. What’s the beginning and the ending of that and what is the significance of it?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, for our friends that are listening there are 12—there are 3 prophecies in Daniel 12. And there are three primary prophecy. And I got to take a minute just to explain this, Rich. You’ve got one group of people that think all of these prophecies are they’re all past and they were all fulfilled all before Christ. And you’ve got your (inaudible 12:09) view. Now some people think that those things are all still in the future. That’s the futuristic view. And then you’ve got the historic view. And I fall in the camp of the historic view. There’s a lot of protestant reformers that were historic and in their interpretation of prophecy. And thinking of prophecy really covers a span of history. It’s not all for the end of time. You know we just talked during our opening amazing fact about this left behind scenario that so many people have caught up into. It takes so many of the prophecies in the Bible and it relegates all of them into the last days. Well, we believe these prophecies both in Daniel and Revelation cover the panorama of History. This is a prophecy—much of Daniel was dealing with a beast power. And this is a prophecy that was talking about the fall of the church that happened in Rome. It be receiving a deadly wound and then it going on and having a revival. And the first time period would be 508 AD. And then there was another time period 538 AD and you notice there’s a difference of 30 days.

Rich: Neither one of those end up with 1844.

Pastor Batchelor: No.

Rich: On the 1335 day.

Pastor Batchelor: That’s right. 4

Jean Ross: The 1335 will bring you to 1843 when the folks first began to proclaim based upon Daniel 8:14, the soon coming of Jesus so that was the beginning of the proclamation of the soon coming of Christ.

Rich: But I thought that was a mistake.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you mean the proclamation of Jesus coming?

Rich: Yeah, the 1843 date, I thought that was (inaudible 13:51).

Pastor Batchelor: Well, the 1843 and the 1844, the (Adventist?) believers that lived back then and I’m not talking about 7th day Adventist because they did not even exist at that time, they believed that Jesus was coming during htat time based on Daniel chapter 8. And of course, he didn’t come. But really happened during that time is there was a new birth to the church. God began cleansing the sanctuary in heaven and he began cleansing the sanctuary on earth. This is such a broad study.

Jean Ross: Deep Subject

Pastor Batchelor: It’s hard to fit 3 time prophecies in Daniel 12 in 3 minutes.

Jean Ross: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: We sort of try and budget for each question. We have a study guide and you may have seen this one, Rich and it’s called “God Sets a Date for the Judgment” and we’ll send out to you.

Jean Ross: It’s a great study dealing with… The number to call 1-800-835-6747 and you can ask for the study guide “God Sets the Time” or “God Set the Date” and we’ll be happy to send that out to you. Our next caller is Shawn listening on WXAN from Illinois. Shawn, welcome to the program.

Shawn: Thank you. I watch (Dr Jack MP?) a lot and they were talking about 2 weeks ago about animals in heaven and I just want to know if there are animals in heaven because wouldn’t you know cause we have a soul and the souls are in heaven. So would an animal have a soul if they were in heaven? It’s just something that I like you to clear for me.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, there’s no question that there are animals in heaven. You can read for instance in Isaiah 11 verse 6, “the wolf would dwell with the lamp and the leopard shall lie down with the kid,” kid not meaning little child but talking about the kids normally. Leopards and kids don’t snuggle up together. “And the cat and the young lion and the fatling together.” Normally in this world, they’re enemies. But in heaven they’re still children there. And little child will lead them. And you can also read about that again in verse 7, the cow and the bear will feed together. So there’s a lot of animals in the new earth. The question is people wanna know will our pets or animals from this world be resurrected and be in that next earth made new. Well, there's nothing in the Bible that teaches that. I’ve got some that have done studies, trying to get a case that you know there’s no reason God can’t do that. And I certainly don’t have a burden to burst anyone’s bubble that their loved pet may not be in the kingdom. But you’re right. Jesus did not die to redeem the souls of pets. He died to save us but then at the same time, the Lord says you know “hasn’t even entered into the heart of men the things that he has prepared for those that love him.” So I think we’re in for a lot of surprises. I can guarantee nobody when they get there will be disappointed because their pet either cat or dog isn’t there. Everyone’s just be very happy there. So does that help, Shawn?

Shawn: Yes, that helps a lot. Thank you very much.

Pastor Batchelor: All right. Thank you.

Jean Ross: Our next caller is Daryl calling from Canada. Daryl, welcome to the program.

Pastor Batchelor: Daryl, are you there?

Daryl: Oh, hi. How are you?

Pastor Batchelor: Good. You’re on.

Daryl: Thank you. My question is regarding Matthew 24:15.

Pastor Batchelor: Matthew 24:15.

Daryl: Yeah it says “Therefore when you see abomination of desolation,” speaking of Daniel the prophet “standing in the holy place, whoever reads, let him understand.” I don’t know what is they’re talking about, the person. And standing where?

Pastor Batchelor: All right. Good question. First of all, you’ll see reference in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 for the abomination of desolation. Jesus obviously read his bible and he’s referring back to those verses of the abomination of desolation. One of the keys to understanding this verse is if you read Matthew 24:15, when you see the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel the prophet “standing the holy place, let him who read to understand, let those which be in Judea flee to the mountains” but when you get to Luke in chapter 21, and you read that verse, it says “when you see Jerusalem” and that’s Luke 21 verse 20, “when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” So now I’ll ask you. What was the first desolation that Jesus is speaking of? Well, he says right here the desolation of Jerusalem when you see it’s surrounded by armies. First the Roman armies, when they came to the holy land and they surrounded Jerusalem, they ultimately invaded the temple. And it was desolated. That was the first fulfillment of Jesus prophecy. But the disciple have also asked Christ about the end of the world. God’s people are going to be hedge in again and the devil will seek to invade the holy place of our teaching in the last days. And then there will be another time of the last days where God’s people to head for the hills to flee. When the beast power says you can’t buy or sell unless you compromised your convictions, you’ll have to flee. So the first fulfillment of the abomination of desolation was the (Roman time?). You know I just realized we have a book on that. We’ve got the book by Gary Gibbs on the “Abomination of Desolation.” You wanna say something, Pastor Ross.

Jean Ross: Yeah, just on that same thing you know in Matthew 24 where Jesus said that he was on the mount of olives and the disciples have come to him and said “when will be the sign of your coming and so on and the end of the world?” and then Jesus looking at Jerusalem surrounding the city of Jerusalem, there was an area of land that was considered holy because the city was holy, the temple was holy. And Jesus looking down says when you see the abomination and desolation spoken about by Daniel the prophet standing the holy place, in other words surrounding the city. Of course you know in 70AD the Roman soldiers came and surrounded the city. So there’s always the visual that Jesus was looking at the scene, he can see what's gonna be happening just 40 years in the future.

Pastor Batchelor: And then later, he wept and told daughters of Jerusalem “don’t weep for me, weep for your sons,” because he saw what was coming.

Jean Ross: That’s right.

Pastor Batchelor: We’ll be happy to send you a book, Daryl. It’s called the “Abomination of Desolation.” Send it to you for free. Would you like that?

Daryl: All right. Thank you.

Pastor Batchelor: You’re welcome.

Jean Ross: All you need to do Daryl is call the resource number 1-800-835-6747. And we’ll be happy to send that out to you. Joe is listening on WMCA from Brooklyn, New York. Joe, welcome to the program.

Joe: Oh, thanks a lot. I enjoy listening. Modern science and then holds the big bang theory, all those that the universe had a beginning and that is billions of years old. This conforms extremely well with Genesis 1 and 2. I’m just wondering why so many Christians were (adverse?) to this idea, so well established.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, I think many Christians do believe that you can embrace Genesis 1 and 2. (Inaudible 20:48) when they first start a story, it often starts with a headline that covers the whole thing. And when God says when the Bible says “In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth,” it’s not talking about 6000 years ago. It’s saying back whenever the beginning was all of things that are created heaven and earth, were made by God. Then it goes on to explain the creation of the earth and it gives us detail. You find this pattern of writing all through Genesis where they’ll talk about you know what God made on certain days and then it will go back up and give more detail of those days. Now some believe that 6000 years ago, God made the universe and the cosmos all the galaxy and nebula, all 6000 years ago, I will respectfully disagree. As a matter of fact, when it tells us God came on this corner of the galaxy, the earth was void and without form. There was some mass here that was unformed and it was void and it was dark. So you know there was something here that he had made, he used to have and it was an empty lot, if you will. But just to expand your thinking a little bit, Joe. When the scientist say that they can pinpoint the date of the universe, all they can pinpoint is the date for the observable universe that we have with the Hubble telescope. That’s about the best telescope we’ve got and the radio frequencies. Space is so infinite. Just picture for a second, you’ve got the observable universe that we do know about that it’s just like one grain on a golf course. And as far as I can see and God is infinitely more that they haven’t dated yet. So we gotta be careful not to put limits on God and what he’s created out there.

Joe: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: You know we have a booklet that’s called “Wonders of Creation” where I think the author goes into the cosmos and its creation a little bit. I’ll be happy to send you a free copy if you like that, Joe.

Joe: That would be great.

Pastor Batchelor: All right. Just call the resource number.

Jean Ross: Give that number, Joe. It’s 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the book “The Wonders of Creation.” We’ll be happy to send that out to you. Our next caller is listening on WMCA Noel again from Brooklyn, New York. Noel, Welcome to the [program. Noel.

Pastor Batchelor: Noah.

Noel: Hello.

Pastor Batchelor: Hi.

Noel: I thought you said Noah.

Pastor Batchelor: Well I did finally cause I thought maybe that the studio had maybe later off-- [laughs]

Noel: Okay. Good morning. Good evening rather.

Pastor Batchelor: Evening.

Noel: I’d like to know something. Based on the part of the Bible, I don’t know what it says if your eyes sin, cut it out. When your hand sin, cut it off…

Pastor Batchelor: Right.

Noel: Explain that to me. I don’t feel it means literally to cut out your eye.

Pastor Batchelor: No, of course, Jesus is not recommending amputation and he says that if your right hand offends you, well I suppose you’re a kleptomaniac and you steal with your right hand and then you were to chop off your right hand.

Noel: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: But then, you’re just gonna steal with your left hand. So it’s a heart? Problem. It’s not a hand problem when you’re stealing or you’re doing something like that. what Jesus is talking about is if there is something that is very dear to you but it is a sin, even it is as close as at your right hand or it’s something you gaze at and you love every day, you know we long after things with our eyes. And we reach for things with our hands. The Lord is saying you’re better off cutting off your hand as close as your hand is, or plucking out your eyes as dear as your eyes is than to be lost and--you know just for the short time on earth--have that sin. So if there’s some sin separating us from God, it doesn’t matter how close it is. Sometimes, you don’t have friends that are very dear friends but that person draws them away from God, the Lord is saying “Look you might need to choose between me, as painful as it is, and this friends who’s a bad influence, cut ‘em off.” There might be something that a person you know back then there’s a lot of idolatry and they’re worshipping idols and icons and the Lord is saying “Look as much as you love looking at that, if it’s becoming a God for you, plucked it out.” And so he’s just making the priorities seeking first the kingdom.

Noel: (inaudible 25:01).

Pastor Batchelor: Sacrifice yeah as painful as the sacrifice might be, if it means following the Lord, be willing to make any sacrifice to follow the Lord.

Noel: And I guess that means to be humble to the Lord.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes, certainly it does. Submit to the Lord and humble ourselves before the Lord. And I think you’re on the right track there.

Jean Ross: Absolutely. Thanks for your call.

Pastor Batchelor: Oh, by the way, I think that Noel would appreciate the study guide on “Going All the Way for the Lord.” We have the last of the Amazing Facts study guide.

Jean Ross: Yes, that’s good on dealing with commitment. And we’re looking at

Pastor Batchelor: It’s got a no turning back.

Jean Ross: That’s what it is, “No Turning Back.” to get that, call the resource number 1-800-835-6747. We'd be happy to get that to you. Yong is listening on KPDQ from Portland, Oregon. Yong, welcome to the program.

Yong: Yes, hi. I thank Lord for your program.

Pastor Batchelor: Praise the Lord.

Yong: Okay. Last (later?), a woman called after you’ve got the Bible verses of (words?) that says Jesus is a God.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes.

Yong: I found out (where?) in Old Testament… I know why in New Testament.

Pastor Batchelor: Okay.

Yong: I just wondering if these would take too much of your time (inaudible 26:19) question.

Pastor Batchelor: What verse?

Yong: Okay. Old Testament is of course (inaudible 26:26) to one, Isiah chapter 9 verse 6

Pastor Batchelor: Yes.

Yong: “He would be called—“

Pastor Batchelor: Wonderful councilor, mighty God everlasting father, principe’s.

Yong: Yeah, the way the New Testament is also in Romans chapter 9 verse 5.

Pastor Batchelor: Romans 9:5.

Yong: Yeah, it says “Christ who is God of all, forever priest”

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you know that’s a good verse. We should have used that last week. I remember when the question came in.

Yong: Yeah.

Pastor Batchelor: That’s right. “Christ came who is overall God blessed forever.”

Yong: Yeah.

Pastor Batchelor: Yup, that’s right.

Yong: That’s a good one, right?

Pastor Batchelor: That is a good one.

Yong: Yeah.

Pastor Batchelor: I’m just wondering what translation were you’re reading from?

Yong: NIV.

Pastor Batchelor: NIV, okay, yeah. That’s a little different than the King James but it says the same thing essentially.

Yong: Okay.

Pastor Batchelor: Hey I appreciate that.

Yong: You’re welcome. Thank you.

Pastor Batchelor: That’s certainly the truth.

Yong: Okay. Bye.

Pastor Batchelor: What do you think, Pastor Ross? Do we have one more we can take before our first break?

Yong: We’ve got one minute.

Pastor Batchelor: Okay.

Jean Ross: We talk a little bit about some of the greater resources that we have to help folks in the Bible,

Pastor Batchelor: You know, one reason we do this program--and we only have one day a week when we record this live. God willing maybe someday we’ll do this 5 nights a week. My favorite part of the Amazing Facts work is just talking to people like this and answering their questions--But we use the program as a spring board to put the resources, the reading things in your hand. We can only give little bits of the answer. Many of these questions are very broad comprehensive answers and we just don’t have time. Whole sermons are written on these things. So we have the website and you will be surprised if you’ve never been there friends, when you get there, you’ll wonder what took you so long. Go to There you’ll see a free library. There’s videos you can watch free podcast and audio. You’ll find out about our TV programs and our other radio programs that we have. We started a new radio program that just called “Wonders from the Word” that you can listen to. The half an hour broadcast so there’s this is so many resources there and we’d like for you to find these things. Mostly we point people to the Bible. We want them to discover the word and developed that personal relationship with the Lord. And enroll the Amazing Facts Bible study course, you can do it online where we got some other important announcements. We’ll be right back.


Pastor Batchelor: Okay, I think we’re back friends. And if you’ve just joined us, this is Bible answers live. It is a live international interactive Bible study and we invite you to interact. We still have a couple of lines open. If you call in your Bible question for this broadcast, that is 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-8004637297. And I am Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: And I am Jean Ross. And, Pastor Doug, let’s go to the phone lines. We’d like to try and get as many calls in as we can on the second half of this program. Ray is listening on WMCA from New York, New York. Ray, welcome to the program.

Ray: Yeah, thank you. Good evening gentlemen. And thank you for taking my telephone call.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes and your question.

Ray: My question is would you say it’s possible for someone to receive a revelation from God that goes on contrary to what’s written in scripture.

Pastor Batchelor: No. That’s about the shortest answer I’ve ever given because Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes, he will bring to your remembrance whatsoever things I have said. And it will really be a contradiction for the spirit of God to say something in opposition to God himself because God is one. And there’s perfect unity between God the Father, Son and Spirit. So I don’t why the Holy Spirit would give a revelation that contradicts to the holy word.

Ray: Would you have a book chapter and verse that refers to that?

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, Pastor Ross, Jean—

Jean Ross: Yeah, we do have a number of verses in scripture. I’m just looking at here that we use text of a prophet or someone who claims a revelation from God. These are the biblical text that we have. First of all, you can look at Deuteronomy 18:21 and 22, “When they speak, their prophecy needs to be fulfilled, needs to come true.” Then a big one is Isaiah chapter 8 verse 22, “To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Someone who claims to have a revelation from God but what they have goes contrary to the Bible, the law and the prophets, the Bible says there’s no light in them.

Pastor Batchelor: The one verse I was mentioning for Ray is John 14:26, “but the comfort of the holy ghost, whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things and bring things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.” So the work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal and to bring to our remembrance what Jesus had said. Of course, that’s revealed in his work.

Ray: Thank you very much gentlemen.

Pastor Batchelor: All right. By the way, Ray, we do have a study guide. And don’t let the title fool you. The title says “Does God Inspire Psychics and Astrologers?” but it talks about the test of revelation there. And it’s the perfect study guide for your question, if you want a free copy.

Jean Ross: All you need to do is call our resource 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the study guide “Does God Inspire Psychics?” and we’ll be happy to send that out. By the way, the answer to that is, no.

Pastor Batchelor: [laughs] One word.

Jean Ross: We’ll go to our next caller. Janie is listening on 3ABN from Oklahoma. Janie, welcome to the program.

Janie: Yes, thank you. When Jesus was incarnate here on earth, was he both God and man at the same time? And could he have sinned?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, the Bible tells us that Jesus was tempted. And then of course it’s a great mystery that the theologians love to ponder who had he have sinned. Was the temptation very real? Did he feel it? Absolutely. But did the prophecy tells us that he would be victorious? Yes. And so you know because God knows the future, doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t have a choice at that time. Christ did have the choice to give in to temptation or to resist it. And so in that sense, could he have? Yes, because he had the freedom. But was it possible in the scope of salvation? No, because God has foretold what was gonna happen. Was Jesus God and man? Yes, you kind of asked two questions. It’s a mystery.

Janie: You see, being God, He could not have sinned ‘coz He was God, at the same time, He was man.

Pastor Batchelor: You know there’s a couple of mysteries, Janie, that the Lord talks about. One is the mystery of iniquity and that is really the mystery how Satan could even though he was made a perfect angel named Lucifer that the seed of sins would sprout and germinate just spontaneously on his heart. It’s a mystery where sin comes from. There’s really no excuse for it. And the other mystery is the mystery of godliness. The incarnation, how God can be a 100% man and 100% God is a mystery.

Jean Ross: You know, just to add to that, Pastor Doug, you look at the first temptation that the devil brought against Jesus there in the wilderness. Satan tempted Jesus to use his divinity in turning stones to bread. Of course, that wasn’t the Father’s will now. The devil would come to us for that kind of a temptation. We can’t do that but he knew that Christ could do that. And another reason why I think Jesus could have sinned is because the devil tempted him. If the devil knew there was no hope, he probably wouldn’t have tried.

Pastor Batchelor: Yup

Jean Ross: So there is this mysterious aspect about the incarnation with Christ being brought God and man but in taken upon himself humanity, he opened himself up to the temptations of the devil.

Pastor Batchelor: You know the book that we have “The Trinity, Is It Biblical?” I think Janie would—if she hasn’t read that already—we’d send her a copy if she likes it. And it talks about the humanity and divinity of Jesus.

Jean Ross: Janie, to get that, call the resource number 1-800-835-6747. And you can ask for the book of the Trinity. And we would send that out.

Pastor Batchelor: You know what? just as I was talking

Jean Ross: Found another one?

Pastor Batchelor: well they said classic book by Joe Crews “Christ Human Nature.” I don’t if we’ve offered that but that is a tremendous resource. “Christ Human Nature” by Joe Crews, the founder of Amazing Facts.

Jean Ross: And again the same number 1-800-835-6747. Lorie is listening KHLM from saint Joseph, Mississippi. Lorie, welcome to the program.

Lorie: Hi, it’s Missouri.

Jean Ross: Oh, it’s Missouri. Okay.

Lorie: My question is about the whole teaching about the 7 year tribulation. How long do you approximate the real tribulation will last?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, some people have speculated that, of course, some refer to the 7 years tribulation--there is no verse in the Bible 7 years of tribulation.

Lorie: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: They derived that from taken the last week of Daniel chapter 9’s prophecy and they sort of transport that and hover it at the end of time. Others have thought that it would be 3 and a half years. You know, I’d be more inclined to think that the small time of trouble might last 3 and a half years. We don’t know. It’s not real clear. But there’s no prophecy that says exactly how long the tribulation will be. Some had thought that great tribulation will last about 45 days and they get that from Daniel chapter 12. and I’m talking about when the 7 last plagues fall and when probation is closed because you find in Daniel 12 the difference between the 1290 and the 1335 days is 45 days. The trials that Job went through were about 45 days. The plagues that fell on ancient Egypt were about 45 days so some have thought you know it could be that when the 7 last plagues fall, the great great tribulation, that it’s gonna be very short cause Jesus said “Except those days be short and no flesh would be saved.” So you know there’s a big spectrum of belief out there.

Lorie: And do you have any booklet for that or—

Pastor Batchelor: We do. We have the book called “Anything but Secret” where it talks about the Second Coming and the tribulation and so we’ll send that to you. It’s called “Anything but Secret.”

Lorie: All right.

Pastor Batchelor: I don’t think it’s in that book there.

Jean Ross: All right. To receive that, Lorie, just go ahead and call the resource number 1-800-835-6747. And ask for that study guide “Anything but Secret.”

Pastor Batchelor: Actually, it’s a sermon book.

Jean Ross: It’s a sermon book.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes.

Jean Ross: We’d be happy to send that out. Saint Joseph, Missouri. I misread the letters there. I used to live in Saint Joseph, Missouri.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you think you know. Friends, remember, he’s from South Africa. [Ross laughs] and they just sort of speak English there.

Jean Ross: Actually MS is Mississippi. So that wasn’t my fault.

Pastor Batchelor: Can you say something in Africano for us?

Jean Ross: [Foreign language 39:10] That’s good evening.

Pastor Batchelor: I’m impress. [Ross laughs]

Jean Ross: Maybe there’s someone out there that recognizes what I just said. [Pastors laughs] All right. Moving on. Our next caller is Norland listening on the internet from Albany, Georgia. Norland, welcome to the program.

Norland: Good afternoon, gentlemen.

Pastor Batchelor: Evening.

Norland: Greatly enjoy listening to your sermons on the internet, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Batchelor: Praise the Lord.

Norland: Praise the Lord indeed. My question is Daniel chapter 8-9, the little horn and then where it goes on to explain it in Daniel 8 verse 23. Is the little horn and the king first countenance One and the same? And secondly, what do they represent?

Pastor Batchelor: Well Daniel 8:23 “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressions have come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentence, shall stand up and his power shall be mighty.” Well, I believe this king is of course, springing from the same evil power that is mentioned all through Daniel chapter 8. There were a variety of high points among those kings where it talks about some of the intrigue that actually takes place there in their kingdoms. Boy, if you haven’t gotten to Daniel 11 yet, because Daniel 11 talks about the same little horn power but it just covers a big panorama of the history springing all the way from Alexander the great up to the Second Coming. If actually Daniel 11 just –

Norland: Let me rephrase the question by the way. I’ve done the studies. I pretty much know what it represents. But there are some that say literally represents Satan the little horn.

Pastor Batchelor: The little horn represents Satan, in particular? No, I’ll tell you what the problem is with that is all of the other horns that you find there in Daniel, they represented specific powers that persecuted God’s people.

Norland: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: One of the horns of course was the medo-persian kingdom well it was 2 horns on the lamb.

Norland: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: Then you’ve got the goat that had the one horn alexander the great, that horn was broken. Four horns sprout, the four divisions of Alexander’s kingdom. They all represented real historical kingdoms powers on earth that persecuted God’s people.

Norland: Earthy power.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah and the little horn grows out of one of those horns the same way that pagan Rome grew out of the Greek divisions and then that transitions in to the people power.

Norland: People power.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, so you know to say that it just the devil, was the devil working behind the scenes in the battle medo-persia, Greece and Rome? Absolutely.

Norland: Right, that’s my conclusion also.

Pastor Batchelor: But they were historical real earthly kingdoms.

Norland: Earthly kingdoms.

Pastor Batchelor: You can find them in the books.

Norland: I greatly appreciate it gentlemen.

Pastor Batchelor: Thank you very much.

Norland: Keep up the good work.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, keep us in your prayers, Norland. God bless you.

Jean Ross: Steve is listening on the internet from Atlanta, Georgia. Steve, welcome to Bible Answers Live.

Steve: Good evening gentlemen, Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross. First I wanna say, Pastor Doug, I really enjoy a lot of your amazing facts programs you know (inaudible 42:22) for myself and my wife. But during one of the recordings there, you were talking about Ephesians 4 and 5, one Lord, one saint and one baptism.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes.

Steve: And I notice that some of your writings that you when it comes to baptism, you believe in baptizing the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And according to the entire Book of Acts, there was like 5 or 6 occasions when someone was baptized, they were always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, there’s certainly nothing wrong with that.

Steve: I’m saying that there’s no other inspiration nowhere in the Bible where it states somebody being baptized father son and holy ghosts. So why isn’t that everyone is baptized in the name of Jesus?

Pastor Batchelor: All right. Well, first of all the very fact that Jesus says very specifically, “Go ye therefore and baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” Now some will argue with that’s been altered and changed but as soon as you start saying that somebody tampered with the Bible, everybody gets to then pick what part they think that was tampered with and then the Bible starts to disintegrate. We need to embrace it as divine in its entirety. But I would agree with you Steve that it does say Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 8, Acts chapter 10 that they’d baptize in the name of Jesus. You’ve got to keep in mind that these are the apostles that are going out largely among Jews to begin with. They are emphasizing that it’s just not baptism of John the Baptist, but they’re baptizing specifically into the truths that Jesus thought. So they emphasized that fact. When they went out among the Gentiles, I’m assuming they baptized in the name of the father, son and the Holy Spirit because they were not caught up in all the divisions of Greek of rather Jewish denominations. Now one thing to keep in mind when you talk about what name to baptize in, look for instance in Acts 2:38, it says, “Baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.” When you go to Acts 8:16, it says, “Baptize in the name of the Lord,” Jesus said. It’s a little different. Then you go to Acts 10:48, it says “Baptize in the name of the Lord,” doesn’t’ say Jesus or Christ. So there’s 3 examples in Acts where they’re all a little different. So to say that and also keep in mind that when they were baptizing, they were sometimes during this speaking in the languages of the people that were listening there. And then that’s translated into the Greek scriptures and it’s like the sayings above the head of Christ in all four gospels. It’s a little different because it was in Hebrew, Greek and Latin. So for us to make too much of an issue of the exact utterance I think as long as you stick to any of these models in the Bible, you’re safe.

Steve: Well, you see one thing about Matthew 28:19, the apostles who had the revelation of who Jesus was because he asked Philip, “Do you know (inaudible 45:29) with? Do you not know who I am? You know I am the Father.” So they had the revelation of who he is. And I believe that’s why they went about baptizing because they knew, like I said there’s one lower so they knew He was the Father, and He was the Son. He was the Holy Ghost. So that’s why they’ve done that baptizing in His name because the name with the Father is not a name Son is not a name but titles.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, when it says name, it’s you know I just quoted here. It says to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ and then it says the name of the Lord. And then Jesus say she name of the father son and spirit. That name means absence of who they are. You know I think we’ve got to be careful. And by the way, we do have a study… Well, I’ve got an article I wrote called “The Name of God.” I don’t know if you’re able to get to the internet, Steve, but if you go to the internet at the Amazing Facts website, I wrote an article on this a couple of years ago. It still posted there because a lot of people asked about this. We need to put this into a sermon booklet and make it available, Pastor Ross. If two people are getting married, we don’t need to overemphasize. The important thing is to commitment they’re making with each other. Any pastor (inaudible 46:30) does not make a big issue on the pronunciation of their names at the wedding. Sometimes they might use their entire name. Sometimes they might use “do you bill take sally?” and those weddings are all legal. And so the big issue in baptism is does a person know who it is they’re making this commitment to and not the exact utterance of the pastor. He might speak South African, you don’t even understand them. [Pastors laugh] next question. Sorry about that.

Jean Ross: Tucker listening on radio 74 from Lakeview, Oregon. Tucker, welcome to the program.

Tucker: Hey.

Pastor Batchelor: Hi and your question tonight.

Tucker: I once read in a (auto?) magazine and saying that God can’t forgive blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I’m actually wondering what that was and how we can be saved?

Pastor Batchelor: Good question. You know Jesus says in the Bible that all manners of sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. Now, the word blasphemy means putting yourself in the place of God or to claim the prerogatives of God. And Jesus forgives all kinds of sin. There’s stories in the Bible of his forgiving thieves. He forgives murderers, and liars and all kinds of sin. A person can break any of the 10 commandments and if they repent genuinely, Jesus can forgive them. But, Tucker, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when a person little by little, resist the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to their soul and as Paul says in Ephesians that we are not to grieve the—what is that verse, Pastor Ross?--Grieved not the Holy Spirit where with you are sealed. I forget it what the exact verse is.

Jean Ross: Ephesians 4:30.

Pastor Batchelor: Ephesians 4:30 and so the Holy Spirit can be grieved away by our resisting of voice of the spirit so we’re not able to tell God we’re sorry. And that’s when we grieved away the Holy Spirit. We can’t be forgiven. We can’t repent anymore.

Jean Ross: The Bible says it’s the goodness of God that brings us to repentance. Say if we grieved away the Holy Spirit, we have no desire to repent.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, and that’s why when God speaks through us and that hurts, sometimes we’re convicted and when we’re sorry about what we’ve done wrong we need to listen to the voice of the spirit and repent and apologize to God right away.

Tucker: Okay.

Pastor Batchelor: All right. Hey, you know what if you call the number, we’re gonna give you here in a second, we have a book called “The Unpardonable Sin” that we’ll send you. And it talks about this.

Jean Ross: What you need to do, Tucker, is call 1-800-835-6747 and someone will answer.

Tucker: What’s the number again?

Jean Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747 and you just ask them to give you the book dealing with “the Unpardonable Sin.” And by the way, after we hang up, you can again speak to someone and they’ll be able to give you that information there, Tucker. Thanks for your call. Our next caller is listening on WMCA from Mount Vernon, New York. Nuvel, welcome to the program.

Nuvel: Yes, good afternoon, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Batchelor: Evening. And your question.

Nuvel: Yes, I’ve been reading the Bible. I’m a Christian and when we speak about—on one of your subjects on tonight but I just want to hear your breakdown when we speak about abortion, where do babies come from?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you’re not asking where do babies come from because you haven’t been to biology class. You mean babies come from God, you know that.

Nuvel: Yes, right. So what then? I am thinking that you know abortion begin from… It can be wrong but I thinking of abortion started from the seed.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, why don’t you summarize your question as well as you can there because you’re covering a big subject and I wanna make sure I answer what you’re asking.

Nuvel: Yes, you know we are against abortion which I am too but you never hear anybody speak of you know where that started.

Jean Ross: In other words, are you asking concerning birth control?

Nuvel: Yes.

Pastor Batchelor: Sorry you are wondering is there anything that the Bible says where any form of birth control even if it prevents conception.

Nuvel: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: --is that right or wrong.

Nuvel: Right. That’s what I wonder in to.

Pastor Batchelor: Okay. Well, I think I can try and help you with that. Obviously, when two people are engaged in marital intimacy that not every engagement results in procreation. so there are a lot of eggs and a lot of seeds that never fertilized and it you know just washes away. But at the same time, when those two get together and there is that miracle of the immerging of the two lives, the two become one in this new life and the genes from both parties the husband and the wife were joined together, that becomes the human life. And human life is sacred to God. So if people prevent in my opinion, if people prevent conception, that’s entirely different from abortion because… well I won’t go much deeper than that. It’s probably far enough. But you wanna comment on that Pastor Ross?

Jean Ross: I think—

Pastor Batchelor: I think God wants us to plan our families.

Jean Ross: Right. Right. He wants to be responsible with our--

Pastor Batchelor: There’s that scripture Jesus says if you build a tower and you can’t subsidize it… Yeah, hold ‘em up. So you know what? There are more kids than you can feed.

Jean Ross: But that’s not necessarily taking a life of a child or baby or something. That’s wrong.

Pastor Batchelor: No, it’s just preventing the coming together of the two, the seed and the egg which happens all the time.

Jean Ross: Okay. Our next caller is Michelle listening on WTLN from Orlando, Florida. Michelle, welcome to the program.

Michelle: Thank you. How are you this evening?

Pastor Batchelor: Good. And your question.

Michelle: Okay, Pastor Doug Batchelor, thank you. I was calling because I’m a fairly new Christian and I’m trying to get closer to the word and become more Christ like but I was reading in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 verses 34 and 35.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes.

Michelle: I’m sure you’re familiar with the passage, “Let your women keep silent in the churches cause they are not permitted to speak but they are to be submissive as the law also says and if they want to learn something let them ask their own husband at home for it is shameful for women to speak in church.” And I'm just I really need some clarification on this point because I was personally raised in a home with a dominant female who you know even though my father was a wonderful saved Christian man. He allowed my mother to be the very dominant person so it’s just naturally a curved you know if that’s the example that you raised with that’s what you tend to become at least until you’re realized that that’s not the biblical opinion of God. You know that’s not the way a home should be run. So of course you know, a woman not being permitted to speak in church create a bit of problems because that’s certainly not… I wasn’t raised (inaudible 54:29).

Pastor Batchelor: Well ,I wanted to try and answer question before our clock goes away. And we just a couple of minutes left. So are you wanting me to address those two verses.

Michelle: Yeah, mainly yes cause that’s I really wanna be clear on that because you know if all scriptures God (breathes?) you know it seems to me that’s to be taken literally.

Pastor Batchelor: All right . Keep in mind 1 Corinthians 14, and I do believe the roles of men and women are different. and you know you do have God speaking through women in churches in the Bible. And you do have God speaking through women prophets so I don’t think this is a mandate against God ever speaking through a woman in a holy place. I think it’s a mandate against confusion. If you read all of 1 Corinthians 14, most of the chapter is dealing with people speaking in tongues babbling with nobody to interpret and so there you’re dealing with the Corinthian church their services must have been--I like to have a video of what was happening in Corinth--because it must have been very chaotic. It seems like everybody was getting up, ranting and raving. Women were not allowed to sit with the men. It’s still is true in India and Mid-eastern cultures. And women are calling across the curtain, calling down from the balcony to her husband or explaining things to their husbands and embarrassing the husbands because the husbands should be the priest of the home and here the woman is explaining what Paul or one of the pastors was saying. And he said “Look, don’t interrupt your husband like this. Wait until you get home and then you guys can talk about this.” But you shouldn’t build a doctrine on one verse and because we have other examples of women speaking like Ana, who spoke when Christ was dedicated in the temple as a little baby, and you have women prophets. I think it’s more talk about confusion in the church and speaking out of turn. That’s why Paul says [background music playing] –I knew the sound was gonna get us—but “Except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known how it spoken?” So much of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, the first part give us the context Michelle of what he says later on in that same chapter. You know, we’re writing a book on that right now. So hopefully in a few weeks, we’ll have a book that deals with this. We get this question so often.

Listening friends, you can hear the background music is there signaling us that we’re just about out of time. We wanna close the program once again by thanking you for listening and we sometimes feel cheated because we have so many friedns out there, we have a one way relationship. We’d like to hear from you. Give us your suggestions, your comments. You can email your questions. Go to And while you’re there, if you’ve been blessed, you can even make an online donation to help us continue doing what we do. God bless you. Remember, Jesus is the truth that sets you free.

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