Date: 06/14/2009 
How about an amazing fact? In 1963, a man in Cappadocia, near Anatolia, Turkey was digging at a stone wall in his basement and he made an astonishing discovery. Behind the wall was a mysterious room he had never seen. This strange room took him to another one.
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Pastor Doug: Hello friends. This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In 1963, a man in Cappadocia, near Anatolia, Turkey was digging at a stone wall in his basement and he made an astonishing discovery. Behind the wall was a mysterious room he had never seen. This strange room took him to another one. Then, this led to another musty room, then another one by chance. He had stumbled upon the ancient underground city of Derinkuyu as the archaeologist began to study this fascinating underground labyrinth. They realized this was only the tip of the iceberg. They had discovered the complex had a total of 11 floors reaching over 300 ft. below the surface.

Though many sections may not been excavated, it's believed the first levels were dug in a soft stone by the Hittites about 1400 BC, later being expanded by Christians escaping Muslim persecution. The underground galleries had all the conveniences of a town, (inaudible 01:17) for wine and oil, stables for animals, storage rooms, a school with a vaulted ceiling, chapels and kitchens that are still blacken by the stood of cooking fires. The chambers are connected by hundreds of corridors, many 10 ft. wide and 6 and a half ft. high. It appears that the first builders of these high rooms were exceptionally tall at that time. Three strategically important doorways could be sealed by rolling huge 1000 pounds stones in to position that could be locked from the inside preventing the entrance of their enemies. The city was irrigated by an underground river that's supplied numerous water wells.

Fresh air was provided by 1500 ventilation shafts in a magnificent exhaust fan that still astonishes the present day engineers. It's believed the massive honeycomb of rooms was big enough to hold a population of between 20 to 30 thousand yet the city was completely invisible from above ground. Amazingly, the subterranean city was connected with other underground cities in Cappadocia through miles of long tunnels. It’s hard to imagine so many Christians willing to live in this dim underworld especially when they are called to be the light of the world.

Stay with us friends, we're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug: Welcome once again listening friends to a fresh installment of Bible Answers live. If this is your first time tuning in, this is, as the title suggests, a live international interactive Bible study and we'd love to have you participate. We do have lines open. If you pick up your phone right now and give us a call, it's a toll free phone call. That number is 800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor and Pastor Jean Ross is getting the night off. It's his birthday today. And we'd like to wish him a happy birthday. He's spending some time with this family and so with the help of our studio crew and the Lord, we're gonna dive in tonight’s broadcast and praying that God will teach us all in the process. As always, we're gonna begin with a word of prayer.

Father in heaven, we wanna thank you for this opportunity, privilege, even the technology that makes it possible for us to have this friendly Bible study with people participating from all over the world. We ask that your spirit will take control right now, Lord that the questions that come in, the answers that are given will all be in perfect harmony with what is truth as communicated by Your word. And it’s in the name of the living word Jesus that we pray. Amen.

Well, friends, I was really interested when I heard this story about these underground cities in Turkey. I understand that there's over 200 of them but this 1 city there in Derinkuyu is the largest. And it's just phenomenal that so many of these Christians that could live underground. They have little mixing crannies on the wall for their little lambs but still it would be dimmed by today's standards. And you think about the city of Christian's living in the dark below the surface. When Jesus said in his word, and you can read about this in Matthew chapter 5 verse 14, "You are the light of the world." A city that is set on hill cannot be hid. What a shame to have the Christians living underground.

You know the Bible tells us that there is a truth. And God is committed His truth to His people. But how can we know what truth is. There are so many different religions and even among the Christians, there are so many different denominations. What is the truth? Friends if you like to know more about what the Bible says, and the Bible is our answer for what is the truth. We have a free study guide we'll send tonight to anybody that asks that deals with the bride of Christ, God's church and how she is the light of the world. There are clues that are given in prophecy. As a matter of fact, there's a whole prophecy in Revelation 12 that helps us identify God's people on the last days that all these groups are being called into, that illuminating “Bride of Christ.” If you'd like a free copy of this beautifully illustrated, very attractive study guide and all you gotta do is call the resource number. It's 1-800-835-6747.

That’s 1-800-835-6747. And we'll send you a free copy of tonight's offer called the bride of Christ. If you have been looking around for a church or wondering, does it make a difference if I belong to an organized church? This lesson will help answer those questions. Once again, toll free phone and this is for the resources tonight, 1-800-835-6747. And I also want to remind you that a good way to stay plugged in with the literature and the material of Amazing Facts is to go to our website which is simply Well, with that I'm ready to go to the phones. And so we're gonna kick off tonight's programs with our first call and we're gonna be talking to Ishmael who's calling from Victorville, California.

Welcome to the program, Ishmael.

Ishmael: Hello, Pastor Doug. How you doing?

Pastor Doug: I'm doing well. Praise God and how are you doing?

Ishmael: I'm okay. I'm actually calling a set of question on Zechariah chapter 8.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Ishmael: Zechariah chapter 8, I was going through the whole chapter then it says, "Thus saith the Lord of hosts" but the one verse that caught my attention was the 23rd verse where it says, "Thus saith the Lord of host In those days, ten men from every language of every nation shall grab the sleeve of Jewish men saying ‘let us go with you for we have heard that God is with you.’”

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Ishmael: I wanted to understand it if that's speaking in the future or those that carry the law or...

Pastor Doug: Well, Zechariah, of course, is in the Old Testament and you can find a time in the New Testament where Jewish men--it wasn't a 10 per say--on the day of Pentecost, the Apostles, Peter was preaching he had 10 besides him. Judas had hung himself. They were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoken other languages, all of them were Jews. And the Gentiles, not only did the Jews at Pentecost accept Christ, because of the influence of the apostles, the Gentiles began to take the gospel to every nation. Now keep in mind that by Acts chapter 12, right when the gospel was going to the Gentiles, James, the brother of John, was killed by King Herod. And so at that time there is about 10 of the original apostles left. And for the first three and a half years after Christ died, the apostles primarily preached to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It wasn’t until after the stoning of Stephen in Acts chapter 10, you noticed they start taking the gospel to the other nations and to the Gentiles.

Ishmael: Right.

Pastor Doug: So this is I believe a prophecy of how the gospel then really went from the Jews. The apostles became the bridge to the Gentiles. And then that number 10, you remember Jesus healed 10 lepers, you'll find the number 10 used many times in the Bible to talk about the word of God, 10 Commandments. So it's symbolic of that as well. But I believe that prophecy has been fulfilled. It may meet another fulfillment with the church just before Jesus comes when he pours out his spirit the second time, in what they call the (inaudible 9:55) and spiritualist where God churches were filled and the world says you know, “We've heard God is with you. How do we find the Lord?”

Ishmael: Right.

Pastor Doug: But the first fulfillment and the primary fulfillment was I believe God utilizing those 10 surviving apostles given the gift of tongues to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

Ishmael: Okay.

Pastor Doug: All right. Hey, I appreciate it. And by the way, I do have a book that I'll send you a free copy if you like it. It's called “Understanding Tongues." It talks a little bit about this in that book and we'll send you a free copy. If you just call us at 1-800-835-6747, we'll send that to you, Ishmael. Appreciate your call. Going next to talk with Markus. And Markus is calling us from Charlotte, North Carolina, listening on the internet. Welcome Markus, you're on the air.

Markus: Hi, how are you?

Pastor Doug: Very well. And your question tonight.

Markus: Okay. I have a question about 2 Samuel chapter 21 I think it’s verse 6.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Markus: About the Gibeonites when King David allowed for seven of the young men to be given over to them.

Pastor Doug: Yes, seven descendants of King Saul.

Markus: Yes, I had a question about that in regards to Deuteronomy 24 I think it was verse 16 about the sins of the father resting on the children and vice versa.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, and the other verse was Deuteronomy chapter 24:16. Okay.

Markus: Yes.

Pastor Doug: All right. So it seems inconsistent to you that the children of Saul would be punished for their father's sin sort of to atone for what he had done to the Gibeonites.

Markus: Exactly.

Pastor Doug: Alright. And by the way that verse in Deuteronomy 24:16, it says “The Father shall not be put to death for the children neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sins.” You know when scholars have look at this and just to give our friends a background, King Saul had broken a covenant that Joshua had made with the Gibeonites to allow them to peacefully live among the Israelites. They were actually given the job of serving in the temple. They're later, I mean they stayed with the Israelites for many generations. They even came back from the Babylonian captivity with the Israelites. And they would carry water and wood for the temple that was their assignment.

King Saul was just like a pit bull. He went after the Gibeonites and attack them as well even though God had said they made a covenant with them. It's believed by scholars that his sons, that were offered by David to help appease the famine, that they had been involved in their father's plan to attack the Gibeonites. That they had probably encouraged him to it. Saul had 3 sons by his primary wife but it’s believed that he had a concubine and she had several children. And Saul reigned for like 39 to 40 years. His children were old enough when he got involved in this battle to be accessories to his attacking of the Gibeonites. And so they understand King David handed them over because they were also accomplices. That meaning that they were not paying for the sins of the fathers but they participated or encouraged their father in attacking the Gibeonites. Did that make sense? I don’t hear or hang on a second, Markus. I'm not sure what happened but are you there Markus?

Markus: Yes, I’m here. Can you hear me?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I hear you now. Sorry we just... I didn't do it honestly. Phone just...

Markus: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Haunted.

Markus: Sure, I understand. So scholars believed that because King David gave them over to the Gibeonites so they believed that they were involved because of what King David, because he agreed to what the Gibeonites requested.

Pastor Doug: Yeah and you know it not only says that in Deuteronomy chapter 24 but in Ezekiel 18, it says the father will not bear the inequity of the son and the son will not bear the inequity of the father. So we have to believe that when these sons were executed that there's more to the story that we might not have in the Bible that they probably were accomplices in Saul attacking the Gibeonites that they encourage it and they participated.

Markus: Okay. All right.

Pastor Doug: You also have to keep in mind that the Gibeonites were satisfied with that. So they must have known something about it, too.

Markus: Right. Okay.

Pastor Doug: Hope that helps a little bit.

Markus: Yes, it does. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: I appreciate your question.

Markus: All right.

Pastor Doug: Okay. Talking next to Tony calling from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Tony, you're on the air.

Tony: Hey Pastor Doug. Praise God for it's always a blessing to speak with you. How you doing tonight?

Pastor Doug: Doing very well. And your question.

Tony: My question is I’m just confused with this timeline issue a thousand year reign of place on earth, well, I mean the thousand year reign with Christ. I, you know, I listen to I always listen to you on Amazing Facts but there's other programs I listen to also. And they seem to be preaching that this thousand years was Christ is gonna be here on earth. And I know you preach that once we're caught up, the thousand year reign is in heaven and then the earth is desolate for a thousand years. So why are they preaching that this thousand year reign with Christ is here on earth. I'm confused and I know you always take everything from the Bible. I'm sure they do too I just can’t remember the Scripture that for instance, (inaudible 15:48), he’s always preaching that this thousand years is gonna be here on earth.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Tony: Why do you preach that the thousand years is away from earth?

Pastor Doug: All right. First of all, Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you, right?

Tony: Right.

Pastor Doug: He's up with the father now. The Bible says he's in the temple of heaven at the right hand of the Father.

Tony: Right.

Pastor Doug: He said "I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am, you might be." So if when Christ comes, we are caught up to meet him. And if the Millennium begins with the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked being slain, then we're not on the earth when it begins. Now, I give you some other Scriptures that I think are even more convincing. There’s several prophesies in the Bible that described a period of time when the earth has completely vacated. One would be if you look in Jeremiah chapter 4 for instance verse 23--I'll read this to you real quick--it says, "I beheld the earth and lo it was without form and void." That sounds like you know creation, right? But you keep reading, "The heaven's had no light. I beheld and lo the mountains tremble and all the hills move lightly. I beheld and lo there was no man and all the birds of the heaven were fled," meaning they had been there but they're gone. "I beheld the fruitful place was a wilderness,” and listen, “all the cities are broken down at the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger for thus says the Lord, ‘the whole land shall be desolate.’"

Here it is the whole earth. No man, whole land desolate, "Yet I will not make a full end.” So and then you've got in Isaiah where he says, “The land is the whole earth is covered with the slain and there is nobody to mourn or lament men.” Isaiah says, "I will make the earth utterly empty and there's no man there.” So there's so many verses that describe a time when the earth is vacated. Now the Jews had a law: For six years, they would farm their land for one year, they would leave it desolate. They weren't doing anything to it. When the children of Israel carried away captive to Babylon, their land was empty. And the Bible says, the land kept Sabbath for 70 years while they were gone. It was empty. During the 1000 years, the earth is desolated. And we live and reign with Christ in glory. Now according to the left-behind view--and by the way, what I teach is I wish I could say it was original but it's not. I’m teaching actually what all the old church fathers taught.

They taught that we live and reign with Christ in heaven during the 1000 years--But the popular left-behind view, it's kind of have spread and people who aren't really studying the Bible just embrace it because that's what they're hearing a lot of the televangelist say, not to be critical of televangelist. I'm one. But you know sometimes people don’t read for themselves, they just take what they're hearing. But you've got 6000 years for Christ sowing in the gospel seed here in the world. If you add up the dates in the Bible, man's history on earth is about 6,000 years. One thousand years of like a thousand years of Sabbath rest where we live and reign with him, the earth is desolate during that time. You know I have a lesson on this. You or anybody that would like this, Tony, I’ll be happy to send it to you. And it talks about “The Thousand Years of Peace.” It's about the Millennium. As a matter of fact, we’ve got two books. There’s another one that's got even more resources. I'll send you a copy of this as well. It's called "Satan in Chains." Boy, it’s got a good cover on it. It's very captivating. "Satan in Chains" cause during the 1,000 years, Satan is bound, right?

Tony: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Now, think about this one more thought. This is a subject I really enjoy. Who would want to reign on the earth over the wicked? The way that the (inaudible 19:43) left-behind the scenario of the Millennium--You know, I have tremendous respect for these people. I'm not trying to be critical but I just think that they're all wrong on this--If Christ comes down to earth, and the wicked are still alive on earth and the righteous are here reigning for a thousand years and they've got glorified bodies. They live forever but the wicked are still carnal and they're dying every 70 to 80 or 90 years. And the righteous are reigning over the wicked. What kind of zany scenario is that?

Tony: Right.

Pastor Doug: I mean it just doesn't make any sense at all but if as the church fathers taught, when Christ comes, the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming. The righteous live and reign in heaven for a thousand years. At the end of the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem comes down. The wicked are raised. This is called the Second Resurrection. They are judge and then they're cast in the lake of fire. This all fits together with all the Scriptures, not just some of them. So that's why I embraced that scenario.

Tony: So the two witnesses and all like they’re actual before....

Pastor Doug: Now we're getting... Yes, it is. We're getting in to a different study. And I don’t wanna mix up those two questions.

Tony: Right. I got it.

Pastor Doug: But we do have a book on the two witnesses as well. It's called the "Glorious Mount." And you can request that as well. Hey, I probably ought to be--

Tony: So the thousand years, was it a thousand years in the Bible literally mean a thousand years like 365 days per year, is that...

Pastor Doug: You know, we think it is a literal thousand years and here's one reason: God told Adam, “In the day you eat of it, you will surely die,” speaking of, if you eat the forbidden fruit, right?

Tony: Right.

Pastor Doug: Did Adam die the exact 24 hour day that he eats the fruit? No.

Tony: No.

Pastor Doug: Spiritually he died, yes, but if as Peter says, "If a day with the Lord is like a thousand years,” no man even Methuselah--he lived 969 years, that whole first generation of patriarkhs, some of them lived hundreds of years-- none of them made it to a thousand, did they? They all died in that first millennial day. So I believe that the 1000 years at the end is a literal 1000 years.

Tony: Okay. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

Pastor Doug: Oh, hey I appreciate your question, Tony.

Tony: Yeah, thank you so much. You have a great night.

Pastor Doug: You too.

Tony: Ba-bye.

Pastor Doug: All right, we're gonna talk with Priscilla who is calling on line 5. Priscilla, you're on the air with Bible Answers Live.

Priscilla: Hi Pastor.

Pastor Doug: Calling from where Shelby, North Carolina.

Priscilla: I'm very excited to talk to you. I've been listening to all your sermons daily like three of them and...

Pastor Doug: Oh, bless your heart.

Priscilla: One of them, it was called (inaudible 22:31) (and?) the children and It was on everlasting gospel.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Priscilla: And I have some (inaudible 22:39) to tell. I recently had a miscarriage. And (inaudible 22:44) sermon you had said you know that personally you didn’t think that all children that were miscarriage go to heaven because if that would be the case and all the children of the (saved?) would be there (inaudible 22:57). It would be like they never existed to (inaudible 22:59) and punish them for doing something wrong. And I guess I (inaudible 23:06) has been asking several people on if my baby will be in heaven and all I get is from Psalm 139. And I just you know, it’s been very hard for me. And I just wanted to ask you what do you think about that. What happens to a baby, my baby (can he be saved?)?

Pastor Doug: Well you know I think that there is a great hope that Christian parents that have lost children anywhere along the way--You see I believe life begins at conception--that they'll be reunited with those children. What I was saying and I if I remember correctly in the sermons, I gave a very careful caveat that I said “I don’t know but I’m suspicious that not every baby conceived is going to be in the resurrection” because if you do the math on that, we would be swimming in children, the saved. You know what I'm saying? But in the case where there's parents, there is that verse in 1 Corinthians 7 where it says that children of Christian parents are sanctified by their believing parents. Now that doesn't mean… I'm not saying that you know all these babies that have been conceived, stillborn or crib death or anything, that any of them are gonna be lost in the lake of fire. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe they've reach in the age of accountability. I know there are some Christian churches that think you know unless you know someone is baptized that even babies are gonna burn in hell. And I think that's a terrible belief. but...

Priscilla: Oh my God.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I will. That’s what they believe in. Anyway but to be honest there you know there is this one verse in Job 3:16, where he says you know may I... I wish I could have been as in hidden or untimely birth like an infant that never saw the light. And Job seems to be implying there as though I had not been. And then so like I said, I say it's not by commandment but by permission. Some of these children that maybe were unborn of unbelieving parents, I'm not sure that every conception, you know, baby is going to be resurrected.

Priscilla: Oh, ‘cause my question was, I mean to God, my question was always like why did God allowed them to be conceived. And it's sad because if one Christian woman that you know they sometimes I fall too but this made me think like is God you know (inaudible 25:37) punish but is this happening to me because you know it's not meant to be? Or, you know, why do miscarriages happen? And I know we live in a simple world but I really wished that I can see that baby in heaven.

Pastor Doug: I think that if you stay faithful to the Lord, and I promise you, you won’t be disappointed. If you're faithful to the Lord, I promise you won’t be disappointed. You know when I think about when Hannah went to the temple and she wept before the Lord because she wanted a child. And God answered her prayer. I think that when you get in to the kingdom that the Lord is gonna satisfy you beyond what you can imagine. So don’t you worry about that and don’t keep second guessing if God causes miscarriage because maybe you did something wrong. You know there's a lot of sickness and disease in the world and you gotta be careful not to blame yourself for that. I've got a brother that was born with a terminal disease and I wasn't, same parents. You know what I mean? There's sickness in the world. There’s disease. One time the disciples ask Jesus why was this man born blind, was it because of his sin or his parents' sin. And he said neither but that the glory of God might be manifest. By the way, that's in John chapter 9. You might want to read that.

Priscilla: And I think that I’m wrong.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, he said it wasn't because the man didn’t anything wrong. It wasn’t because his parents did anything wrong but for the glory of God. And so just trust that God will glorified through all this. Okay?

Priscilla: Okay. And I thank you so much. Your sermons have been helping me a lot.

Pastor Doug: Well, bless your heart and we'll be keeping you in our prayers, Priscilla.

Priscilla: Thank you Pastor. Have a blessed night.

Pastor Doug: You too and God bless. Well, let me see. Do I have time for one more? What do I've got left? I'm checking, one minute. You know that's not enough time to take another question before our break friends so I'm gonna take this opportunity instead and remind you that we have a lot of web resources that you can utilize so that between Bible Answers Live broadcast, you can continue studying. You can listen to arkhives of this program. Simply go to And at the Amazing Facts website, you'll see the link where it talks about our media. It will have our television programs or radio programs and arkhives of Bible Answers Live. We've got a number of the most popular questions. And we're pretty free and generous with the truth here friends. If you go to Bible Answers Live, you'll also find out at the Amazing Facts website that a lot of their free books and resources that we give away during the broadcasts, you can read them online. And you can download them. You can forward them to your friends. These studies for instance, we've been sharing tonight on the ‘144 thousand,’ on the ‘Two Witnesses,’ on the ‘Millennium,’ you can read all those online. All you've gotta do is go to, a number of other websites as well. We get a lot of questions about how can I study the Bible. We'll be right back.

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Announcer: Welcome back to Bible Answers Live with Pastor Doug Batchelor. This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible-related question, you can call us from 7 to 8PM Pacific Standard time on Sundays and receive clear and honest answers directly from Scripture. Call 1-800-GOD-SAYS that's 1-800-463-7297. Now, please join us as we looked to God’s word for more Bible Answers Live with author and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Doug: We're back listening friends and for those that may have joined us somewhere in route, this is Bible Answers Live. We are live taking your Bible questions. And if you want to call in a Bible question, we've got a couple of lines still open and go ahead and dial 800, toll free number 1-800-GOD-SAYS that’s an acronym for 463-7297 and I'm gonna see if I can get a few extra phone calls in this second half. Pastor Jean Ross is off for the night. And you can all wish a happy birthday next week. And we're gonna go next to Loretta, who's calling from Savannah, Tennessee. Loretta, you are on the air with Bible Answers Live.

Loretta: Yes. Thank you Pastor Doug and happy birthday to Pastor Jean.

Pastor Doug: I'll pass that on to him.

Loretta: I've just got a couple of questions related to the plagues in Egypt.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Loretta: Okay. All the plagues didn’t affect the Israelites like they did with the Egyptians.

Pastor Doug: Correct.

Loretta: Okay, now, could the Egyptians have gone over to the Israelites side to avoid the plagues?

Pastor Doug: Well, you would think so. I mean there was a certain amount of mixing between the Israelites and the Egyptians.

Loretta: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And you had the, you know, there was some commerce that took place between them. Keep in mind when they went up out of Egypt, out of slavery, you can read in Exodus 12:38, “and a mix multitude also went up with them," flocks and herds and very much cattle. So not only where the Israelites escaping, there were maybe some Egyptians that joined them and maybe even some slaves from other races or nations that joined them because they saw God was with them.

Loretta: Okay.

Pastor Doug: So theoretically when the Israelites had light in their dwelling but it was dark in the capital of Egypt. Some of the Egyptians probably saw the glowing light and say "Look, I'm going over there in Goshen."

Loretta: So like the plagues for the hail. It's told them to get their cattle, I guess, and stuff together and I guess maybe that was because the hail was coming. Where they talking to the Egyptians or the Israelites or to all of them?

Pastor Doug: Well I think God warned... I think the Israelites was spared from the plagues. I mean you've probably seen Hail--

Loretta: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: That is falling on one side of the road and not the other.

Loretta: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: I have. And as a matter of fact, I saw it two weeks ago.

Loretta: Well, I guess it has to stop somewhere, huh?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, exactly. So you know it would have been no problem for the Lord to you know have it hail in Egypt and not in Goshen. And but I do think God was warning the Egyptians also "Get your cattle under protection if you believe me" ‘cause he didn’t want to destroy the animals. He didn't you know he was just giving everyone an opportunity. He even told the Egyptians, "If you put the blood over the door, your first born will not die."

Loretta: Oh really.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, and anyone could have done that. If they'd believe in the Lord, God would have accepted them but you know, they didn't believe. They worshipped other Gods and most of their first born died.

Loretta: Now in the plague like the frog, Moses created the frogs-well with the Lord’s help. And then the Egyptians magicians came behind him and made more frogs. To show their power, why didn't they take the frogs away?

Pastor Doug: Well that's they create illusions the Egyptian magicians, they were... Of course, you know the devil doesn't have the power to create a frog.

Loretta: Yes.

Pastor Doug: (Inaudible 34:11) create a man but what the devil can do, you know like a magician, he can create an illusion.

Loretta: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: That fooled the King. And so for the first 2 to 3 plagues, the Egyptian magicians counterfeited those but when it came to the lice, that’s when they said, "Look, we can’t do this. This is the finger of God." At first, they thought Moses was just a really good magician and then they realize when the four plagues in a row came they said, "Hey, this is the hand of God." They even told the Pharaoh, "We can’t do this."

Loretta: Okay, thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: All right. Hey, I appreciate your questions, Loretta. You have a good evening.

Loretta: Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Ba-bye.

Loretta: Bye.

Pastor Doug: Going next to talk with Donna, who's calling from --give me a second here to manage my phones--line 8, okay. Donna, calling from Arkansas. Is that right? KOKS. Donna, you're on the air. Donna, Bible Answers Live, are you with us? Donna’s been waiting patiently and she may have stepped away from the phone. Donna, you're on the air. I hear someone, are you there?

Donna: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi. Your question.

Donna: Is this for Donna?

Pastor Doug: This is for Donna.

Donna: Okay. I wanted to know about where in the Bible does it say Fire that the center that the ones that are lost and don’t accept God, will be bound with the unquenchable fire and also their soul would be eternally separated from God.

Pastor Doug: Well, you're asking two questions here. One is about the unquenchable and you can find-- let me see here. A couple of examples of that--One is Matthew chapter 3, it say, "that he will burn up the shaft with unquenchable fire" and I believe that that's repeated pretty well in Luke 3:17. It says he'll gather the wheat in to his barn and Christ in the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat represents the saved. The tares or the weeds, the shaft, it's burned with unquenchable fire. Now the word unquenchable does not mean that it burns forever. People often misunderstand that. The word ‘quench’ means to extinguish. The fire that destroys the wicked cannot be extinguished by a fireman or a fire extinguisher, and so it's unquenchable fire. It burns until it's done its work.

Now the second part of your question was?

Donna: Eternal separation from God, our soul.

Pastor Doug: There is no phrase in the Bible that I know of that says eternal separation of our souls. The Bible does talk about the wicked being lost eternally but that's different. It says they'll be cast out of the presence of the lord and I’m sure you can interpret that as separation but you know there's a lot of misunderstandings about hell and the lake of fire. And if you like, we have a book (inaudible 37:18) that we'll send you that answers those questions, for free. It's called "Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?" Would you like a free copy of that?

Donna: Yeah, you can send me that.

Pastor Doug: All right. Well I tell you what? All you gotta do is make one more toll free phone call that number is 1-800-835-6747 and any of our friends out there. If you've got questions along with, Donna, regarding what happens to the lost? Then send for this resource "Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?" And it gives you a lot of Bible Scripture that explains that. That number one more time 1-800-835-6747. The lesson "Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?" thank you Donna for your question. And we're gonna talk now to George. He's calling from Bronx, New York, listening on WMCA. Welcome George, you're on the air with Bible Answers Live.

George: (inaudible 38:13) can you hear me?

Pastor Doug: Very well, loud and clear.

George: Are you a pastor? I have a question about can you really dissect that the definition between a backslider and an apostasy? And so can you make any biblical examples on that?

Pastor Doug: All right. First I'll say I believe there is a difference. Backsliding even by nature of the word is you can slide with your knees lock without moving your hips. If you're standing on slippery ground, you can slide whereas apostasy means standing away from the truth. So even by the definition of the words, backsliding, some people backslide unintentionally. You know what often happen is gradually, they stop feeding their soul and their personal devotion. They stop praying and reading the word, then they say "Well, I miss church one week and you know it's not that big of a deal.” And then pretty soon the next month, they miss it two weeks. They’re not trying to be lost. They're not saying I don’t believe anymore. They're just becoming sloppy about their commitment to the Lord and their personal devotions. They are sliding away. Whereas apostasy is a person who says "You know I don’t believe this is true anymore and I'm gonna stand away from it." So you know they're coming from... Apostasy comes from I believe it's a Greek word ‘apostasia' and it means to stand aside from something. So there is a difference between the two.

George: So you can say Judas, he aposta-- What do you call that?

Pastor Doug: He apostatized. Well, Judas may have even a third category. I don’t think Judas stopped believing the truth. He just became greedy. He didn't slide either. Judas really just... It was... Yeah, I guess you could say he was an apostate. He betrayed the Lord and he just took a stand away from the truth, whereas Peter--

George: (inaudible 40:23).

Pastor Doug: Here's what happened with Peter. The difference between Peter, Peter denied the Lord. He didn't mean to. He just sort of started to hang around with the enemies of the Lord when they started making fun of Jesus. He little by little was intimidated until he said "I don’t know who he is." You know what I mean?

George: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: So there's a probably good case study right there between Peter and Judas. One was backsliding and the other was in apostasy. Hey, I hope that helps a little bit, George. Good question. I appreciate that. And with that we're gonna take Mark’s phone call, calling from Knoxville, Tennessee, listening on WIVK. Welcome, Mark, you're on the air.

Mark: Yeah, I noticed in several passages in the Bible that talks about God is slow to anger, merciful and long suffering.

Pastor Doug: Uhuh.

Mark: That being the case, why did he bring such quick judgment on Uzzah for touching the ark to try to keep it from falling, and then on Ananias and Sapphira?

Pastor Doug: Well where much is given, much is required. And we'll take them one at a time. With Uzzah, he was a priest of the Lord. Uzzah knew that the priest were not supposed to touch the ark when they carry the ark. They never even to lay hands on it. They slid these poles through rings at the four corners and they lifted it up on their shoulders. Once the ark was completed and the 10 commandments were put inside, no man, not even a high priest was supposed to touch it.

Mark: What if it was about to fall?

Pastor Doug: Well, that's part of the problem. They were not supposed to carry it on an ox cart. They knew that also. God and Moses had given very clear instructions. As a matter of fact, after this experience, the next time David moved the ark, he did it the way God prescribed the priest and carry it on his shoulders. The first time, he's carrying the ark the way the Philistines carried it. They put it on ox cart and it was bouncing around. Now you and I don’t know what else is going on in Uzzah’s life. You know what I'm saying? This may have been the straw that broke the camel's back for Uzzah. Not only did he touch the ark, which was forbidden but he may have been presumptuous in his life about other things in serving.

Mark: Prior to that.

Pastor Doug: So, you know. For us the second guess God's decision to judge him, we really don’t know what else was happening in his heart at that time. Now with Ananias and Sapphira, God was very severe on them but keep in mind, the Holy Spirit has just been poured out. God was working incredible miracles. And inspite of the presence of the spirit, they resisted the voice of the spirit and decided to lie to the apostles so they could get credit for being much more generous than they really were. And I believe that they were just really lying in the face of the glory of God, God's spirit.

Mark: (Inaudible 43:10) has given half of their possessions was upfront and honest about it, they probably wouldn’t got into trouble.

Pastor Doug: No, that's what Peter said. Peter said "Wasn’t this money yours? You could have done with it whatever you wanted so what provoke you to lie and concoct the story that you're giving a hundred percent when you're only giving half?" And you know i think the Lord is sending a message to us in that also that it's very dangerous for Christians to act like they've given all of their hearts when really they're only doing a partial sacrifice.

Mark: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: We need to really make a total sacrifice.

Mark: Was Uzzah was a priest?

Pastor Doug: Yes, Uzzah was a priest, yes.

Mark: There's more about Uzzah's life than in 2 Samuel 6.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, you can find more about Uzzah. I'm gonna give you some of the references: 2 Samuel chapter6 and you find in 1 Chronicles 6:29, it talks about him. He was one of the priests. And I think he's mentioned in the Chronicle of the Levites.

Mark: So this wasn't a case where like a piece of church (furniture?), let's say some foreman are carrying a pulpit. God only allows four people to carry it but a fifth person sees that the other four need help to keep it straight, that's not what...

Pastor Doug: Yeah and you notice that it doesn’t say the ark was gonna tip over, what it says the oxen stumbled. So he may have been looking for an excuse to touch it and feel important.

Mark: Oh, okay.

Pastor Doug: It doesn't say it was ready to fall off the cart. It says the oxen stumbled and he reached up. And I know it sounds a little severe or even King David was very discouraged about what had happened. It says that David was afraid of the Lord that day. And it kind of shook everybody up and it shook up the early church when Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Hey, I hope that helps a little bit, Mark, and we're gonna talk next to Keith who's calling from--where is he calling from?--Sitka, Alaska. They've been waiting patiently. Keith, you're on the air with Bible Answers Live.

Keith: Yeah, Sitka, Alaska.

Pastor Doug: Sitka, I've been there but I ought to be able to say it.

Keith: [laughs] Hey man, I’m just tickled to death to get through man. I mean the internet. I live in an Island out in the middle of nowhere and I’m talking to you guys live so that's awesome. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Are you bouncing off a satellite?

Keith: I believe so, yeah.

Pastor Doug: Satellite connection, that's really incredible technology, isn't it? And your question tonight.

Keith: My question... Yeah, well, I just kind of want to get your opinion more than anything. It's our church. We have a beautiful church. I helped rebuild it. And you know we have our service on weekend, Sabbath service. What I like to do is we have a great projection system there and I had an idea of getting classes in the middle of the week. You know computer classes showing how to make movies, how to do this kind of thing. And I talked to the board and there's some people, blessed their hearts, to feel like we shouldn’t do anything in the church. You know it's been set aside for the Sabbath service. I want to get your opinion on that. And I’m not trying to downgrade them or rank them or whatever. You know I respect their thoughts in that but you know does God... I understand that God's spirit is there. That’s its holy. It's a precious time during that time but what about the other hours? I mean I'm looking at it as a building but it's God's spirit that makes it holy.

Pastor Doug: And especially when--

Keith: Just use it for Sabbath service then or can we use it for other things? To me, sometimes church is built inside gyms, you know, but...

Pastor Doug: Yeah that is a very good question. And you know we grapple with that here in Sacramento. Pastor Ross and I... Pastor Ross runs the church where the sanctuary is use as a sanctuary one day of the week. Its use as a gym or a place for fellowship means the other day. And it's just the only room they've got for their events. And I do believe that if a building is set aside for sacred use, you don’t want it then, you don’t want to be doing bingo or doing unsacred things in the sanctuary.

Keith: Right.

Pastor Doug: But I think if there are practical things that can be done that are still upholding and expanding the mission of Christ, that you know a building should be utilize in practical ways. So you know I don’t wanna make it sound like I'm talking to both sides of my mouth but really the Old Testament sanctuary served a different function than the meeting house is where we have church today. In the Old Testament the building was built to hold national symbol of God, its presence, the ark of the testimony. And it showed kind of the glory of God was there. And it was you know they kept a holy fire burning there, 24 hours a day. And it was a very sacred place where sacrifices were offered. The churches that we have today are really places where the word is ministered and proclaimed. So if the Church gathers there at the weekend and they have their worship service, there's nothing wrong with them having a prayer meeting there during the week or if there's some kind of practical instructions that's expanding the ministry of Christ, that's the idea. You know you want to designate a church for sacred use. At our church for instance, not that we're the perfect example, and for anyone listening as Job says wisdom will not die with me. I don’t have all the answers. But in our church, we rent out some of the rooms in our church to schools during the week for special testing but we don’t do it in the sanctuary because we have other options. You see what I'm saying?

Keith: Well, yeah, so probably a big church then.

Pastor Doug: It is, yeah, and so you know it varies. You just need to pray that God will help you to have wisdom, to be respectful of that space and to dedicate it for sacred purpose but at the same time, be practical.

Keith: So that the space that's dedicated to sacred service is God's spirit. I guess my question is...

Pastor Doug: That doesn't mean it should only be use once a week.

Keith: Right.

Pastor Doug: For preaching.

Keith: So it is a gym that is dedicated, you know, I can understand that but I do want to respect other people. my thought is you know if I can get them to come to the doors of the week, it's a lot... it's not such a big wall to come in on and check out this new place on the weekend you know so...

Pastor Doug: Well you know and then there's another Bible principle we need to bring in here, Steve. It says "Don’t do anything that would offend your brother" and that would not only mean in the world, that means in the church and so you wanna go with the council of your church family there. If they're all uncomfortable, then you know in the multitude of the council--

Keith: Yes, I would respect that. Yes, we respect that.

Pastor Doug: They're safety and you know but it's a good idea to discuss these things because you can even find in the Bible that they have some disagreements and they've to talk to it.

Keith: Yeah, and I understand that once the council makes a decision as if I understand is that God made that decision you know. And I know respect that.

Pastor Doug: Yeah you want to respect it.

Keith: I just trying to grow, I guess. [Laughs]

Pastor Doug: Well, you know what that's good that you want to reach people in the community. And I think that's a wonderful thing for you to continue working on. Hey, thanks for your patience, Keith, and Sitka, Alaska. That’s right. I've been there.

Let me see who's next in line. We're gonna talk to Gill calling from Queens, New York on WMCA. Gill, you're on the air.

Gill: Hi, Doug. It's a pleasure and treasure to speak to you again. And I know that in Proverbs 18:22 says that when a man finds a wife, find what is good and receives favor from the Lord. And I know that also in Matthew 22 verse 30 says that the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Supposedly two people that are married and have a wonderful marriage and they’re very closer--probably closer than a lot of couples you know, they have just a wonderful relationship--will they be divorced in heaven or separated cause I know that you got a question about that.

Pastor Doug: Right. Yeah that's a good question. Now since Jesus says that those who are worthy to participate in the resurrection will be like the angels who either marry or are given in marriage. Does that mean that in the case where you got a wholesome married couple in this life, they just had each other that when they get to heaven, God hands them divorce papers? And the answer would be no. I believe that Christ wasn’t talking about divorcing Adam and Eve when they get to heaven. I think Jesus was saying there will be no new marriage unions. It says they either marry. It's the verb, the act of marrying in the kingdom. The earth is gonna be repopulated with the redeemed. And so but at the same time in the cases where someone has been divorce and remarried multiple times in this life and they went through their life in love with each other, God is not gonna force them apart in the new earth. That’s a good question, Gill, I appreciate that.

Talking next with Wayne who's calling from Moses Lake, Washington. Wayne, welcome. You're on the air.

Wayne: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi, Wayne, you're on the air with Bible Answers Live.

Wayne: Yeah, I got a question on Matthew 5:32. It says that a spouse divorces another spouse without cause and they marry another and they committed adultery. Now so if you have a husband or a spouse that's abusive, you divorce that person, are they free for marriage without the other person committing adultery?

Pastor Doug: Well, if someone is married to an abusive spouse, why get divorce? Why not separate?

Wayne: Well...

Pastor Doug: The only reason people technically get divorced is so that they can remarry.

Wayne: Correct but so if the person that remarry them, are they committing adultery in the sense of that Scripture?

Pastor Doug: Well the Bible says that there’s you know the only grounds biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage is violating the marriage vows of intimacy. And you know you gotta be very careful with the abuse argument because--I'm a pastor. I do much more counseling than I want to do--And some people will say well you know i left my wife because she verbally abuses me. And everyone's got different ideas on what that means. And you know there are terrible things that happened and a lot of difficult stress in relationships. And I hear things that just you know I think I'd find it hard to live with but if you want me to go by the Bible, the words of Jesus are that there's only two grounds for biblical divorce. One is in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 if an unbelieving spouse abandons the wife or the husband because they say "I don’t wanna be a Christian" and they abandoned them. Then the way that many interpret 1 Corinthians 7 is they have grounds for remarriage. The other is where Christ said saving for the cause of fornication meaning adultery or they've violated those marriage vows of intimacy. So you know I hope that helps a little bit, Wayne. We do have a lesson that we can send you that have more information on that dealing with "The Keys to a Happy Marriage." and anybody who would like a free copy of that lesson, you simply call the toll free number 1-800-835-6747. We’ll send you a copy of that.

I'm wondering if I’ve got time for one more here. Tell you what? We’re gonna talk to Robert, line 4, been waiting from Palm Springs. Robert, would you do a quick question?

Robert: Yes, I'm gonna make it quick. a friend of mine ask me a question I didn't quite know how to answer and I said, "Well, I'll talk to Doug about it if he knows." Basically, he was saying that if somebody, some Christian tells another Christian about the truth, for instance the Sabbath, and that other Christian hears him out and after understanding that truth, continues to ignore the truth that's been given to him. Is God looked that up as pretty serious as far as you know salvation and then continue (make?) breaking, making a sin?

Pastor Doug: Well, whatever the truth is if God presented the truth if it’s understood and it's rejected, that's very dangerous, that doesn’t mean that person is never gonna have an opportunity to hear and understand it later. Because in my years of evangelism, I’ve seen a lot of people who heard different points of truth and they threw their hands up and they say, "I don’t believe it. I don’t want it" but years later they were convicted and they accepted it but it is very dangerous to forestall or postpone obeying the truth. We’ve got a number of examples in the Bible of various kings that rejected the Lord, they may be raised by godly parents but they rejected the Lord and later came back. And so it is a dangerous thing to reject or turn your back on truth because you know we're living on very dangerous ground. A person could enter eternity unprepared because of that. Oh, Robert, I apologize. I was afraid that might happen to us but if I didn’t get the whole answer and give me another chance next week.

Listening friends, this is the fastest hour of the week we should enjoy our time together. I can’t believe the program's over. It seems we just started. Hey, we'd love to get to know you better. And this one hour is not enough time so why don’t you drop us a line. I’d love to hear from you. We read our emails, just go to Amazing Facts. and there's a place there where you can contact us. If you would like to put something in and you can even drop us a donation online to help us stay on the station that you're listening to. Only reason we're on is because people like you keep us on by faith. And the reason we're doing what we do is because that Jesus and knowing him brings eternal life. He is the truth that will set you free. God bless friends.

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