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A Piece of History

Date: 08/16/2009 
Michael Sparks was visiting the Music City Thrift Store in Nashville where he bought a candle holder, a set of salt and pepper shakers, and a yellow print of the Declaration of Independence.
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Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? After Stan Cathy and his wife Linda married, as part of the combining of households she urged him to clean out the garage and make some room. Stan, an admitted pack rat, was reluctant to part with a reprint of the Declaration of Independence he kept hanging in his shop. He had bought the yellow document about ten years earlier at a yard sale for a couple of dollars.

Linda won the debate so in March of 2006 she rolled up the old parchment and took it along with an antique table and a massaging shower head and a faucet to donate to the local thrift store. Fast forward one year. Michael Sparks was visiting the Music City Thrift Store in Nashville where he bought a candle holder, a set of salt and pepper shakers, and a yellow print of the Declaration of Independence. Sparks a music equipment technician also figured the document was a worthless modern reprint. So he paid the asking price of two dollars and forty-eight cents and headed home.

After looking over the document for a few days he wondered if it might be older than he thought. So he clicked around on the internet to do some research and soon realized based on a number of clues that he had purchased one of the only two hundred official copies of the Declaration of Independence. It was commissioned by John Quincy Adams in 1820 when he was Secretary of State and printed by William Stone in 1823. Of those two hundred early copies only thirty-five had been found intact. Michael now had number thirty-six. It took a year for Sparks to have the print authenticated and preserved and then he put it up for auction in Burlington, North Carolina.

The bidding opened at $125,000 and it climbed to the sale price of $477,650. Stan Cathy said he felt like the village idiot when he realized that he had been hanging onto the Declaration of Independence and didn’t know it. This is not the first time a precious National document has been misplaced or unrealized. Stay with us friends, were going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hello friends, welcome once again to Bible Answers Live, and if you just happen to be wandering past this frequency, you've found yourself to a live, international, interactive Bible study. And you are in invited to join us. Park right here and listen in as we explore the word of God together. If you have a Bible question, you can call the toll-free number and we'll do our best to get to it in our time. We still have a couple of lines open. That number one more time is 800-GOD-SAYS, that's 800-463-7297 and my name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor John Ross: My name is John Ross. Good evening listening friends and Pastor Doug. Let's begin with the word of prayer. Dear Father, once again, as we open this program, we ask for you to be with us. We ask for wisdom as we search the pages of Scripture for. Be with those who are listening. We pray that you bless each person, and for this we ask in Jesus' name. Amen.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amen.

Pastor John Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a rare and very precious treasure that had been lost for, you know, a certain period of time and then discovered. What were you referring to when he spoke about a rare treasure that had been lost in and found in the Bible? We read about in the Bible.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, there's an interesting story, I think most everybody knows, that Moses not only received the Ten Commandments from the Lord, he authored the first five books of the Bible. And especially the book Deuteronomy was called "the law" or "the repeating of the law." There was actually period of time -- it may have been a couple hundred years -- when the people of God had lost track of their national document. Really, the Torah, the books of Moses, was an outline of their national document and they still had, even hundreds of years after Moses had died, they still had the original copy in the temple, but it got somehow mixed up in a room full of junk in the temple -- this incredible document, a book written by the hand of Moses. It's almost inconceivable that it would get misplaced, but it does happen, as we found out here with the story of this Declaration of Independence.

But you can read about this in II Chronicles 34 verse 14 and 15. It says after they'd cleaned out the temple that -- when they brought the money out that was brought into the house of the Lord, Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law, of the Lord, given by Moses and Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, "I found the book of the law in the house of the Lord." You'd think -- why would you be surprised you'd find a Bible in the church? -- but this of course was the temple, the main temple that was built by Solomon and they had evidently transferred this to another room in the coming and going of different kings, as they redecorated within the temple. The actual word of God that misplaced.

And it makes me think, Pastor Ross -- I wonder how many families have a Bible somewhere on the shelf that -- it's a book written by God, but they don't realize what they've got. Like this man in Tennessee there, he had something worth half-a-million dollars, or nearly half-a-million dollars, and just hanging in the garage. Never even read it didn't know what it was. And finally somebody took a closer look and discovered treasure. In the Bible, we have a treasure. It's the key to unlock heaven, it's the key to eternal life, is in the words of God in the Scriptures, and maybe our friends would like to know more about this incredible resource, the Bible. We have a free offer tonight. We're not sending everyone Bible, we are hoping that they have one in their home, but we have something that we'll send them for free that will help them better understand the importance of the Bible.

Pastor John Ross: It is a book written by Pastor Doug Batchelor entitled The Ultimate Resource. It talks about the Bible and some of the wonderful ways in which the Bible can come alive to you as you study God's word. The number call for this free resource is 1-800-835-6747. That's 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the book The Ultimate Resource and we'll be happy to send that out. Now talk about Bibles, Pastor Doug, for those who are listening and would like to go to be Amazing Facts website. Amazing Facts has a study Bible. It's the new King James Version, but it's got some excellent resources and guides in the back of the Bible that can be very helpful when it comes to Bible study

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, one of the cornerstones of Bible study for about 35 years now has been the Amazing Facts Bible study course and they managed to get the entire Amazing Facts Bible study course in the back of this Bible with all those references, all those doctrinal aides. Many of the principles people hear us share on this program are in there, along with prophecy, charts, Bible numbers and what they mean and prophecy symbols concordance and maps and -- it's just an incredible Bible. They had been very popular. That's right, the Amazing Facts Prophecy Bible, you can find it Amazing Facts website, which is amazing facts.com or.org, and that'll take them there.

Pastor John Ross: Let's go to the phone lines. Our first caller this evening is Karen and she is calling from Aurora?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Nebraska

Pastor John Ross: Is that Nebraska? Karen, welcome to the program.

Karen: Thank you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Karen, you've got a remember Pastor Ross is from South Africa, so he doesn't know all the initials for the 50 states yet.

Pastor John Ross: I'm looking at the NE and I’m thinking "North Dak – no, can't be North Dakota, what is that?"

Karen: That's okay. My question is in Revelation 6, we have the 12 tribes of Israel, but how come Dan is not there and Manasseh is there in instead?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You're very perceptive, but I think you are talking about Revelation Chapter 7.

Karen: Oh excuse me, Revelations.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Revelation Chapter 7 where it talks about the 144,000 and it lists the 12 tribes. Two tribes are left out. You've got the tribe of Dan and the tribe of Ephraim. That's very observant because this is the only place in the Bible where the list of tribes appears the way that it appears. You know, usually it begins with Reuben and includes Dan, it leaves out Joseph, instead it's got Manasseh and Ephraim. Here, it lists Joseph as a tribe and it lists Manasseh as a tribe, but leaves out Dan and it leaves out Ephraim.

First of all, I don't wanna confuse everyone, but I've gotta give you little background on the 12 tribes. There were actually 12 sons of Jacob, including Joseph. Because Joseph had been exiled for so many years from the family, Jacob said, I'm going to count your two sons Ephraim and Manasseh as tribes in your place. Well when you take one tribe and kind of split it into two, it takes 12 and turns it into 13. So there were 13 tribes, but when they went to the wilderness, God said "Look Levi is going to be the priest for the whole nation. The Levites will be the priest for everybody." So that dropped the number back down to 12 that got an inheritance in the Promised Land. Even at the Last Supper, there were 13 in the room. There were the 12 apostles and Jesus, who was the high priest. In Revelation you still have 12, but it's left Joseph in along with his son Manasseh and it left out Ephraim and Dan. Dan -- the word Dan means "judging of the people." The 144,000 are beyond judgment because when they're caught up and when they're sealed, they're past judgment. And Ephraim, if you're reading the Old Testament, it says Ephraim was joined to idolatry and so God left Ephraim alone.

I have a whole study on this. I'll send you a free copy. It's the book on the 144,000. It deals with this chapter, we talk about the tribes and what they mean, and would be delighted to send it to you for free. All you gotta do is call the resource number and ask for the book on the 144,000.

Pastor John Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747 and the book is The 144,000 and we'll be happy to send that out.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you for your question, Karen.

Pastor John Ross: Our next caller is Hector calling from Chicago, Illinois. Hector, welcome to the program.

Hector: Okay, I have a question in regards to the Sabbath and exactly what is acceptable to do on the Sabbath. Does the Bible make any reference of it? The reason why I'm confused is because of course, in the Ten Commandments, it says keep the Sabbath and thou shall not do any work good, but then if you go down to John 5, where the man in at the Pool of Bethesda. They tell him tell him after Jesus heals him to take up their bed and walk. The Pharisees say it is unlawful to take up your bed on the Sabbath day. So I'm just a little confused about what's acceptable things we can do on the Sabbath.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well that's a good question. First of all, keep in mind when you are reading the New Testament, one of the constant battles of Jesus was separating the man-made laws of the Pharisees from the real law of God. They had a number of traditions that they were imposing on people that were really absurd, that were nowhere in the Bible commanded by God. One example would be that they actually said, if you're walking through the field on the Sabbath and you pluck and apple or you pick a piece of grain out of the field and try to blow, you know, rub it in your hands, eat it and blow away the chaff, that was called harvesting. Now this man who walked away with his bed in John chapter 5 -- a bed in Bible times was not a great big Posturepedic mattress, it was -- they used to have just a roll -- yeah, it was a little mat or a blanket that they would roll out and lay on -- and so it was really was like carrying a sleeping bag or less.

You'll find in the Bible that God told them, first of all, to abstain from their regular labor. Jesus was a carpenter. You never find Him in the carpenter shop on Sabbath, but He did heal people, He did teach people, He did feed people. And Christ said it's better to do good on the Sabbath than evil. And so there's nothing wrong if there somebody sick and they need healing, by all means heal them.Animals -- if you're a farmer you've gotta milk your cows and your goats seven days a week. You can't tell them, look, we're gonna take 48 hours off from milking you. It's painful for them and their milk dries up. So a lot of it is just practical comments sense. Getting all the work out of the way that can be done, so that you have basically quality time with God. Go ahead Pastor Ross with your thought.

Pastor John Ross: Just in reference to that experience with the man at the pool of Bethesda where the man was healed -- he probably didn't have a whole lot of possessions. He had been there for a long time and it wouldn't have made sense for him to stay there the whole Sabbath, until the sunset, to pick up his mat and go. It was just common sense, that's probably all he really had. Jesus said roll up your mat and go, there's no need for you to stay here any longer you're healed.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah and then the Pharisees tried to make a big deal out of it like he was bearing a burden. That was an exaggeration of what the law was talking about.

Hector: They were just being

Pastor John Ross: Yeah, the Pharisees had developed just hundreds of man-made laws about the Sabbath that really didn't have any basis in the Bible. They actually had a distance that you could walk on the Sabbath, where they'd roll out a piece of string, like a ball of yarn, and they'd say, you can walk the length of this yarn or not any further and, I mean, that'd be kind of silly. Suppose you get within 3 feet of where your dinner invitation was, you'd have to turn back and so you know. Jesus wants us to be practical.

One other the law I heard about was - the Pharisees said you can't bear a burden but if you carry a handkerchief, it's a burden. But if you sew your handkerchief to the sleeve of your clothes you can blow your nose in and that's okay because it's actually part of your clothes then. So that's when you get really hyper- legalistic and it's a principle of - you're not to do any secular or your regular work and it's a day of rest, getting everything out of the way you can get out of the way to worship and serve God.

Pastor John Ross: You know we have a study guide on the subject of the Sabbath that's called The Last Day of History and Hector, if you'd like to call our resource line, we'll be happy to send that to you -- anyone who's listening. 1-800-835-6747 and it talks about the Sabbath, The Last Day of History. Sally is calling from Georgia, Atlanta. Welcome to the program.

Sally: Hi, thank you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you. Your question?

Sally: I have a question on Matthew 5:32 where they're speaking of divorce and remarriage and where Christ says that "saving for the cause of fornication" and, you know, "that whosoever should put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery" and how it relates to the betrothal period. Does that directly -- was He speaking directly to the Jewish people at the time when they had because nowhere else in Mark, and Luke, in Romans -- there is no exception anywhere else.

Pastor John Ross: You mean you think there should be no exception, not even for violating the marriage fails?

Sally: Right.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, the fact that Jesus said this would indicate that a person has the right to get a divorce if a man is unfaithful in his vows to his wife or if a wife is unfaithful in her vows to her husband, they don't have to get divorced. As pastors, we would counsel them to do everything they can redeem the relationship, but it does provide the one caveat that Jesus offers, that if a person is forsaking their covenant, they've broken the covenant -- and some evidence of this would be probably in the way God deals with His church.

The Lord looks upon His church as His bride, but many times she plays the harlot and He's very faithful and He goes after her because He loves her and He's willing to forgive. But ultimately, He says, when it comes to Ephraim, Ephraim is joined to her idols -- let them go. That was 10 tribes of Israel. There is a limit even to God's patience and He continually talks about His church running after other lovers. So it's not only a New Testament teaching of Jesus, it's an Old Testament teaching. If a person persists in violating their vows, then the covenant can be revoked. But that doesn't mean because there's an argument between a husband and a wife or one of them runs up the credit card debt -- the only reason that Jesus gives is fornication, meaning they sleep with someone else.

Sally: Just found it interesting that it's just a mentioned in that one line and usually God, when He has a message, He seems to reveal the same thing in several different places throughout the Bible.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You also -- you know you do have it not only in Matthew 5, you got it in Matthew 19.

Sally: But again, it's in Matthew. I don't find it in any of the other books of the Bible anywhere.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, there's actually if you read in the Old Testament. In Genesis, God instructed -- and this is Genesis 21:14 -- God told Abraham to put away Hagar, because he had one wife too many. That would, of course, be another reason for -- supposed to have one wife -- we're seeing a lot of the news about that lately. But I'm not an advocate for divorce. I just need to tell you what the Bible says.

Sally: Yeah, it just caused some confusion where -- you know, He speaks of fornication, like -- and fornication, of course, is between unmarried people and adultery is between married people when He speaks in his word about the different sins and He's specified fornication and adultery, He talks of them as two separate things. But then, in Matthew, He refers to fornication being an excuse for divorce. That's when I recently studied about the Jewish betrothal period. Their betrothal pretty much was -- they made vows and they were considered as though they were married. So that's why, you know, He referred to it is fornication.

Pastor John Ross: Just to address the word of fornication, Mary, if you look at the original Greek, it also is including adultery, so it's not limited to just fornication, it's definitely broad and includes adultery.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That's true. So it's both. The person, married or unmarried -- any illicit intimacy is fornication, where you're married or not. I appreciate that. Sally. I hope that helps a little.

Pastor John Ross: Thomas: Let me go back to Cindy calling for Miami, Florida. Cindy are you there?

Cindy: Hello?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Can you hear us Cindy?

Cindy: Hello? Yes, hi, hello. I thought I lost you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It's all right. And your question?

Cindy: My question is did God give Lucifer, or Satan, a chance to -- was he giving him a time to repent right before Calvary, before. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well Satan probably had -- there's just minimal information in the Bible about the rebellion of Lucifer, but there is as you piece things together, adequate information. By the way, and you can bear witness Cindy, we didn't ask you to call in with this question, but Amazing Facts just finished a DVD called Cosmic Conflict that talks about the rebellion of Lucifer and the war in heaven that's mentioned in Revelation chapter 12, where he was cast out. And it explains why is their sin and why is there evil in the world. It's called Cosmic Conflict so if people go to the Amazing Facts website -- I think it's still popping up when they see that. You can do a search or, matter fact, just go to cosmicconflict.org website or cosmicconflict.com, either one. You can see the trailer.

But to answer your question, now that I got that little commercial in there -- on Lucifer's rebellion, Lucifer probably had gone past his probation of repentance before our world was created. Probably there was a time before he was cast out of heaven when God would have forgiven him, but he went too far it broke out into a war. I'm assuming by the time this war that you find Revelation 12 between Satan and the fallen Angels, and Christ and his angels -- by the time that war transpired, Lucifer had gone past the point of repentance -- committed the unpardonable sin.

Pastor John Ross: And especially if you look at the experience of Jesus. There in the Garden of Gethsemane, Satan is doing his very best he can to harass and to persecute and to put to death Jesus. That's a manifestation of the hatred that he had in his heart, there was no desire whatsoever to show respect or repent or. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And you look at what he's done through history, even up to that point, where he's having the baby boys thrown to the crocodiles in the Nile. He was totally a cold-blooded, unrepentant Satan. I hope nobody out there is feeling sorry for Lucifer, because he's gone past the point of repentance. Thanks for your question. By the way, we do have a study guide, Cindy, that talks about Did God Make a Devil and it goes into -- and it's free. We'll send you one -- it'll go into more detail on this subject.

Pastor John Ross: The number 1-800-835-6747 and the free resource is the study guide, Did God Create the Devil. We'll be happy to send that out. Annette is calling from Castle Rock, Washington. Annette, welcome to the program.

Annette: Hi. I have a question. I was reading in I Kings and I noticed a parallel but I didn't know the significance. I noticed. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I Kings where?

Annette: I Kings 6, It always says -- I always read 480 years after the exile, children of Israel left Egypt. Solomon started a temple, and I always wondered "why did they say that?" But it occurred to me, 487 years after the children left Egypt, the king of peace, the son of David, offered an intercessory prayer, a sacrifice, and the sacrificial system was changed from the tabernacle to the temple. Then I thought to Daniel 9 -- the children of Israel, flee Babylon, Persia, returned to the Promise Land 487 years later.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Now you're saying 487. In I Kings or II Kings it says 480.

Annette: He started it, but he finished it seven years. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh, I see, seven years in construction, correct.

Annette: So they leave Persia, or Babylon, go to the Promised Land 487 years later the son of David, the prince of peace, offers an intercessory prayer, offers a sacrifice, and the sacrificial system ends in the temple, and then continues in heaven. And the parallel seems striking, but I don't know the significance of it.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well. You've got me curious now because I like studying numbers in the Bible and I am not sure what the significance of that would be. That's interesting.

Annette: I only thought maybe some people think the Messiah, the Prince in Daniel 9, is maybe the Anti-Christ and I thought maybe if Solomon was a type of that, you know, that could kind of show. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, let me give you -- well one more thought is God is perfect with his numbers. 40 is a big number for the Lord. You agree with that?

Annette: Yeah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: 40 years will find many times. 12 is a big number. 480 is 40×12.

Annette: Oh.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Or 12x40. Either way. And so this is like a perfect number for God -- the temple is begun. I'm talking about the 480 now. The temple is begun 12×40 years after they came out of Egypt. So matter of fact you look at the history of the book of Judges, a lot of their history is divided into 20's and 40s. Different judges ranked 20 years they had peace 80 years, they had peace 40 years. It just seems like these generation numbers are very precise divisions of 40.

While you were talking, I just typed in 12 -- I divided 40 x 12 because I thought I had remembered that was an interesting comparison. I appreciate that and you would probably enjoy the study we've got on numbers in the Bible and I'm going to look more into what she was saying. If you go to prophecycode.com, prophecycode.com, we've got a special study that deals with Bible numbers and what their significance is and I'm gonna do a little more homework on that 487 and find out. . .

Pastor John Ross: Very interesting, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your call. Our next caller is Caroline, calling from Tennessee. Caroline, welcome to the program.

Caroline: [noise]

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Caroline, you're on the air.

Caroline: Yes, I've got a question about the book of Job, Chapter 12. In Verse 7 and 8 it says that we should talk to the animals, or let the animal speak to you. I'm trying

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Job is basically saying that if we doubt the reality of God, just look at nature. Look at the animals and you can see from looking at the birds and the different creatures and it says "they'll teach you." Even these animals seem to know unconsciously that God provides for them. For instance, Jesus said "the sparrow doesn't worry, but the heavenly father feeds them." How can this little sparrow get up and sing without a refrigerator? It doesn't know where his next meal is coming from, how can it sing? Doesn't have any money in the bank, how can it sing? It seems like the animals say, "God will take care of us."

This is what Job is also referring to is just look at the evidence of God in his creatures that you see and they'll teach you. That's what he's talking about. The animals are really talking To Us, but they teach us through -- I love watching these nature programs. There's so many incredible miracles in nature that would never evolve by accident and so in that respect, you consider the animals, and they're speaking to you.

Caroline: Okay, that makes sense. You made that clear to me. Thank you so much, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right. Thanks a lot and God bless, Caroline. By the way we do have a book that Caroline would enjoy. It's called The Wonders of Creation and it talks—Joe Crews wrote a wonderful book. We'll send her a free copy.

Pastor John Ross: 1-800-835-6747 and the book is The Wonders of Creation. Rosalind is calling from Bakersfield, California. Rosalind, welcome to the program.

Rosalind: Thank you, Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross. I began to feel and believe that we have been worshiping the wrong date. I asked several pastors and ministers in different churches I've attended, "why we worship on Sunday and not keeping the fourth commandment which is to remember this Sabbath and keep it holy?" And I was always told, well, the church -- changed that day, and nowhere in the Bible is the reference to that day being changed. So I am believing that we should be worshiping on the Sabbath. My question is specifically was how do you remember the Sabbath and how do you keep it holy and also wanted a reference a seventh day service I could attend here in Bakersfield?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay, several questions there and we're just thankful for your study into the subject. You're right, it's very clear from the Bible that the Ten Commandments are still intact, including the one of the Sabbath and we're not saved by keeping any of the Commandments, we're saved by grace. But if we are saved, why would we wanna break the law that says to kill, or to lie, or to steal, and right in the middle is that one law that says "remember the Sabbath" and yet so many churches say "well that's the one you're supposed to forget about." It doesn't make sense.

Rosalind: Exactly, but Christ said in Matthew 5:17 that he had come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, let me get to your question. We're gonna take a break in the minute and I don't wanna run out of time. Of course, keeping the Sabbath day holy, God gives a number of the specifics. He says "Get done what you can do in advance when it came to baking or boiling their food." They'd do as much of that as they could, even the wilderness, in advance. In the book of Nehemiah, it said they wouldn't do any commercial buying or selling. People would bring their offerings to the Lord on that day, but they didn't get involved in any commercial purchasing or shopping -- Sabbath keeping -- it's hard to keep the Sabbath when people are at the mall and trying to make a sale.

So it's a day, it's a holy day we focus our attention on God. It's to refresh our spirits. It's were recharge our spiritual batteries and a date that's intended to be a blessing. You said that you're in the Bakersfield area. I've got a number of friends there and I know there's a number a Sabbath-keeping churches there. I recommend you just type into the Internet browser there in Bakersfield -- Bakersfield SDA -- and you probably find several Sabbath-keeping churches in the area. Anyway, we're gonna take a break now, Rosalind. I hope that helps with your question a little bit.

Listening friends, we still have a couple of lines open. We're gonna be back in a few moments with more Bible Answers Live questions. Also want to remind you if you have not seen the trailer yet for the new release called Cosmic Conflict. Just click on the Internet for a moment type in cosmicconflict.org or dot-com and take a look at the trailers. There's a great presentation that explains: how can a loving God have sin in the world. If God is all-powerful, why did he allow the devil to come along? And we don't need to worry about that. Anyway, don't go away. We're coming right back.

[commercial break]

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Welcome back listening friends and if you just joined us, this is Bible Answers Live.It's a live interactive Bible study and you can call in with your questions. That number once again is 800-GOD-SAYS. 800-463-7297. Just before we go back to the phones, Pastor Ross, you and I were sort of looking at each other saying "Do we dare?" and we decided to dare. We have a new website -- very interesting website -- called Bible Prophecy Truth that is still in the development stages and we're giving out this address because we want your feedback. When you're developing a new website and sometimes you say, "I want people to look at it," and -- it's what they call a tester -- it's under construction -- but there's quite a bit there right now. It's gonna be a real -- what's the word for it? -- gonna be a real mountaintop website soon. An enormous amount of information on Bible prophecy and beautifully designed website. If you like take a look at that, BibleProphecytruth.com, and it's got -- let me just read some of the titles you can study there -- 666, Antichrist, Armageddon, seven last plagues, secret rapture, prophecy, mark of the beast, second coming, new world order, left behind, Israel in prophecy -- all of the hot subjects of prophecy are going to be at this website with an incredible wealth of resources.

Pastor John Ross: I'm looking at this website right now, Pastor I've got it open here on my computer. You click on one of those topics. For example, 666 -- what is the Bible has to say about that -- and it opens up not only some text that you can actually read and a Bible study that you can go through, but it opens up some video clips that you can watch dealing with the subject of, in this case, 666 or whatever you might be asking about. You've got audio, you've got visual, and you got some fantastic Bible study resources, all in one place.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Some people, they just want to say" I want to see the pictures and the arrows I want to see the DVD." Others are gonna say "I'm very cerebral and analytical I want to read information in the history." Others going to say "I'm very auditory, I want to listen to it," and they can do all three or any of the above here. But we want your feedback, so click on BibleProphecyTruth, and then I think there's a place on the beta version of the website where you can contact our webmaster -- yeah, there is -- with information and suggestions or observations or if you like it. Just let us know. Anyway, ready for the phones?

Pastor John Ross: All right, we're gonna go to Jasmina, who is calling from North Carolina. Jasmina, welcome to the program.

Jasmina: Hi, I have a question about where our tithes and offerings should be paid. Based on Matthew Chapter 15 Verses 3-6, should our tithes and offerings be paid to people in need instead of to God's storehouse? Is that okay?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, if you read in Malachi Chapter 3 -- I'm not trying to jump away from the verses you mentioned -- but if you read Malachi Chapter 3, God's pretty specific. He says "bring the tithe into the storehouse." Even -- all the way back to the book of Leviticus where that tithe was really -- the process for paying tithe as a nation, on the national level, was arranged. They brought it to central location where it was dispersed to the Levites that were ministering the temple. Now prior to Moses, when Abraham paid tithes, he paid tithes to a priest named a Melchizedek. When Jacob came back from his captivity and he paid tithes, we're not exactly sure how he did it. Some think that's when he gave gifts to Esau that was the tenth he promised to return to the Lord. So that was before they had a nation, but once they established a nation, it was given to a central location where it was judiciously dispersed among those who were preaching the word on a full-time basis or teaching the word.

Now, there is a second tithe it talks about in the book of Deuteronomy. When they would go to their national feasts, they could take of this tithe during the harvesting and give it to the poor in need. They could use some of that tithe to buy provisions on their way to the feast. There's a lot more liberal guidelines about how to use this second tithe of the feasts. Sometimes people have confused the two and they're really two distinct applications of the tithe.

Pastor John Ross: So in other words, Pastor, what you're saying is offering is something that could possibly be used for meeting the needs of not only the local church, but maybe people in need that you come across -- people you know. But tithe is really earmarked for the work of the ministry. It's there to provide for

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Mission work.

Pastor John Ross: And teachers and so on.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I'm glad you mentioned offering, Pastor Ross, because tithes and offerings are two separate things. He says further in Malachi chapter 3, "Bring your tithes and offerings." So an offering is something given of free will a tithe is a specified amount for specified purpose. And Pastor Ross is 100% right. Offerings -- you can give 90% offerings if you want. You can give them whatever you want. An offering is something that's done from the heart and hopefully that helps. We do have a study on by the way.

Pastor John Ross: We do. The study is called In God We Trust and it's part of our Amazing Facts Bible study guide. It's free if you'd call our resource line, 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide In God We Trust. Also, you can read online if you go to the Amazing Facts website or Bible Universe. You can also see that study guide there. Our next caller is Loretta and she's calling from Savannah, Tennessee. Loretta, welcome to the program.

Loretta: Yes, thank you, pastor, I appreciate this opportunity. Since I was on hold, I kind of narrowed down my question within Revelation 8 and my question involves Revelation 8:8, 9 &10. How would you interpret that please?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: All right, let me read this for our friends -- and I need to just issue a disclaimer here, Pastor Ross -- I do not know all the answers. One of the tough places you've just come to -- but let me read it for our friends, "And the second angel sounded, and it was a great mountain burning with fire that was cast into the sea and a third part of the sea became blood, and then a third of the creatures that were in the sea and had life, died, and a third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third Angels sounded and there fell a great star from heaven burning as it were a lamp and it fell upon the third part of the rivers and the third part of the fountains of waters. Now this is talking about when these angels are sounding their trumpets. There are two things that are happening here. In Revelation chapter 2 and 3 -- I've gotta backup and give you little bit of a broad view of Revelation -- you've got seven messages to the church, to seven churches. This covers the religious history of Revelation from the First Coming to the Second Coming.

Then you've got the visions of the seven seals of revelation. Each sort of covers the political history that impacts the church between the First Coming of Jesus and the Second Coming. Then you have the seven trumpets, which covers something of the military history that affected God's people. It's not all the military battles in the world, but especially the major military movements between the First Coming in the Second Coming. There also may be a future application here to the seven trumpets. Keep in mind, just before the seven trumpets sounded, the children of Israel were getting ready to cross over from the wilderness into the Promised Land, so for any Jew who reads Revelation, when he thinks of seven trumpets, he automatically thinks of Joshua and Jericho falling, right?

Loretta: Yes, of trumpets, yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And when Jericho fell -- Jericho was their beachhead of entering the Promised Land. The first city they conquered entering the Promised Land was Jericho. And so what it represents is -- we're entering, we're going from the wilderness, we're entering the Promised Land. So one thing you think of when you think of the seven trumpets is -- something that's gonna happen just before we enter Promised Land. Now there are some people who wonder if this burning mountain that goes in the ocean is an asteroid strike. I don't think that's what is talking about. I think that these mountains in the Bible, it tells us, are symbols of different things. In Revelation 17, it tells us the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. These mountains have a meaning.

Pastor John Ross: That's right. Often mountains are connected with kingdoms or political powers or entities. From a historical perspective, someone suggested that what's been described here in Verse 9 of Revelation Chapter 8 refers to the destructive forces of the vandals when they entered into Rome and turn the city upside down. We steal the word "vandal" from the vandals because the way they went about their battles. And some have identified that as the judgment that came upon Rome because of the part that Rome played in the crucifixion of Jesus.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And that's why it's one of the earlier trumpets that happen in history, sometime back.So it's hard to give you a study on the seven trumpets in kind of the three minutes that we budget for questions, but hope that helps a little bit, Loretta.

Loretta: Well, I'm still a little confused, but hopefully will become clearer to me in the future.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, I did a whole -- probably a ninety-minute sermon on the seven trumpets, way back in '93. I don't know if that's still online, but you might search Revelation seminar and see if my presentation on the seven trumpets is there, but we wouldn't be able to fit all that on this program. Pastor Ross has a good sermon on it too.

Loretta: Okay, thank you so much. Bye.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thanks a lot. God bless.

Pastor John Ross: Our next caller is Max, calling from Manhattan, New York. Max, you're on the air.

Max: Good evening, pastors

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening. And your question?

Max: My question comes from Genesis Chapter 2 Verse 1, 2 and 3 and also Mark Chapter 2:27. It's basic -- I just want to know do you believe that the Sabbath existed prior to Eden, meaning in heaven?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, there's no record. The first record you just pointed to, the first time of the Sabbath is a memorial of the seventh day of creation of our world and so whether God, in creating other worlds and other galaxies, had a cycle where it was a special holy time, that wouldn't surprise me. But for our world, the time that God established as a holy day was in the first week and it seems to be specific to our world. Here.

Max: Okay, because the reason I asked the question is because in Mark Chapter 2:27 it states that "the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath," which really excludes angels or any other entities that are not human.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, in one sense, angels sort of vicariously keep the Sabbath. God has, probably not all, but many angels to be ministering spirits for what's happening here in the world. We talk about Guardian Angels and the Bible seems to support that. I would think that those angels are also conscious of that holy time that God has set aside.

Max: Yeah, because that's what I believe is well. Maybe the principle always existed, but not exactly the Sabbath date, whereas there was a principal of a holy time in heaven, but when it came down to human beings and how we would communicate with God, He created seven days.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah and of course the foundation of this question is the truth that the Sabbath is all about a love relationship. I think everyone knows that a love relationship requires time, and not just any time, it's quality time. And so, God, knowing that he'd given man a work to do said look, but I've also reserved every seventh day to lay aside your work. Let us have our quality time and anytime you spend with God in a special way is holy because he is holy. God said look, I'm going to bless this period of time and be with you, and that's important to God, and we need it for our love relationship.

Pastor John Ross: Absolutely. You know, again we do have that study guide dealing with the Sabbath. It's called the Last Day of History and for anyone wanting to know more about this important subject, call our resource line 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the study guide The Last Day of History and we'll be happy to send it out. Morton is listening on KFIA from California, Antioch. Morton, welcome to the program.

Morton: Good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening. And your question tonight?

Morton: My question is -- Between me and my wife, we have been listening to program. We have been truly blessed and we thank God for your ministry.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Praise the Lord.

Morton: We are -- when we travel. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Go ahead and press number two again. I don't know what happened. Sorry, are you there? Start your question again.

Morton: Okay. My question is pertaining to Hebrew Chapter 8. I was listening to this program and the host was saying the church, the Spirit won't be in the church in the last days, and there's so many people that are listening. I don't believe that. I don't believe it, but there are so many people that are listening and need clarity because I'm a Christian and I truly believe in the Spirit and this person is talking about God. It's easy for us to be saved -- all of the church. This station plays so much good Christian songs and I can't understand why they're. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I know where you're going and, by the way, I agree. This station does play -- I listen to this station -- I know what you're talking about. He's teaching that we're not supposed to go to church anymore, that the churches are all fallen and you can't be saved in the church and that's really absurd because any very foundational Christian teaching is the church is the body of Christ. The church is not a building, and he's saying, well if you're part of any organized church, then you're in the wrong place.That's crazy too because the only alternative outside of an organized church is being part of a disorganized church and God is not the author of confusion. He says "all things should be done decently and in order." So, you know, this is kooky theology. I do regret when he comes on the air and starts telling people that because he's deceiving them.

Morton: What text can I use, you know, to correct others because there's so many people that are listening and believing?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you know, what I think is really strange is a lot of people that are listening to their radio station are finding the Lord in the organized churches. So how can they say that they haven't found the Lord? People, you know -- Pastor Ross pastors a church, I pastor a church -- we see people come into the Lord right and left and just absurd to be saying "Oh God can't save anybody through the church anymore." The church has problems, it always has, even back in the Old Testament, but God has committed the oracles of truth, his word to the you keep asking the question is, that's church and he saves people through his body.

Pastor John Ross: You know in Revelation we have a picture of two women, one in Revelation Chapter 12 and another in Revelation Chapter 17, and a woman in Bible prophecy represents the church and right there in Revelation chapter 12 brings right up to the point of the Second Coming of Christ and here is a church that is faithful. She's clothed in white she's standing up on the moon, a crown of 12 stars. She's the Bride of Christ. God's help the people on Earth that are faithful to him until the end.

Morton: What I'm saying is that, you know, there was a person from another church, from a church, trying to correct this version because they are just mixing up the truth. They're not speaking the truth for what it is.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: While you know, unfortunately, Morton it's not just this one radio station. There's a lot of false doctrines out there and you can just hear what they talk about. Paul said on the last days that "wolves would come in among the flock to draw away the disciples after themselves" and that's what's behind it frequently is they're drawing away disciples after themselves. And unfortunately you can follow the money. A lot of times you find they're ridiculing the organized church because they're trying to raise funds for their own radio program or whatever it happens to be. I don't know, maybe now is a good time for us to mention that Pastor Ross and I don't get anything financially for doing this program.We donate our time, most of the people here in our studio that are taking calls are donating their time, they're volunteers and you can just tell when people are doing something from the heart, or whether they're running down the church because they're trying to build up some other personal ministry.

Pastor John Ross: You know, we have a study guide dealing with the subject of the church and its role in the world. It's called The Bride of Christ and for anybody wanting to know more about the subject. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That's a good study.

Pastor John Ross: . . . great study. Call 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the study guide entitled The Bride of Christ. Danny is listening on KFIA from Sacramento, California. Danny, welcome to the program.

Danny: Yes, hi. I was calling wondering when Lucifer is -- that star -- is cast out of heaven in Revelation 12. I was just wondering when that occurs? Does it occur before Adam and Eve are created or does it occur during Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross? When does that occur?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, we don't really have a date that we can give. But as far as a sequence, I believe that there in that prophecy, in the middle of the book Revelation -- of course, Revelation's got that 22 chapters -- there in chapter 12, it seems that John is transported back in vision and he shown the foundation of the battle between good and evil and it began in heaven. And before Lucifer came to our Earth, I think that he'd had been evicted -- he and his Angels have been evicted -- from the actual city of God in heaven.

Pastor John Ross: You know, it does seem also that up until the point of Christ's crucifixion, Satan had limited access, you might say, to heaven. For instance, the story of Job, where Satan shows up as the representative of Earth and God says, "Have you considered my servant Job." But after the death of Christ, Jesus now becomes the prince of this world he now has earned or taken back ownership this planet. So, Satan no longer is the representative of the Earth, now Christ is our representative according to Hebrew. So the casting out of heaven happened before the creation of the Earth, but it seems as though the death nail took place at the death of Christ.

Danny: Okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah and Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." And so Christ was there when he fell and I think Satan, at the cross, was really limited -- defeated -- that's why Jesus said "He is finished." Thanks, Danny and by the way we'll send you that lesson on Did God Create a Devil? talks about Lucifer- where he came from and where he's going.

Pastor John Ross: 1-800-835-6747. Study guide is Did God Create a Devil? Mark is listening from Watertown, Massachusetts. Mark, welcome to the program.

Mark: Thank you very much for taking my call. I'm reading the Bible and I love it but there's something where God says "I will choose your delusions." I don't know where that's from but how do you reconcile that with Jeremiah 29:11?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Now what is it that you're saying? What's the statement?

Mark: I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the Old Testament. God got angry at the idolaters. It says "I will choose your delusions."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Pastor Ross?

Pastor John Ross: The verse I'm thinking of is -- it's in the New Testament.

Mark: New Testament?

Pastor John Ross: Well, there's a verse in II Thessalonians Chapter 2 and it's verse 11 -- says "because the people did not receive the love of the truth, God will send them strong delusions that they should believe a lie."

Mark: Okay, that's what I'm talking about. And how do you reconcile that with Jeremiah 29:11? I don't understand it.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well if we're searching for God sincerely and we love the truth -- Jeremiah 29, 11-13 -- in Verse 13 -- God is saying that "you'll search for me and you'll find me, when you search for me with all your heart." If we're searching to know God and to do his will, we'll know the truth. In II Thessalonians what God is saying is if we reject the truth, God is going to allow us to believe lie. There will be people who are very sincere. . .

Mark: Right, thank you, that clears up a whole lot. Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And there's one more verse in Hosea -- is that Chapter 4, Verse 6? -- where he says "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge because you've rejected knowledge." When God sends the truth and people reject it, then they can get to a place where they're very sincere about a lie. Jim Jones -- he had all those people down there in Guyana and many of them voluntarily took this cyanide-laced Kool-Aid because they believed this lie.

Pastor John Ross: The verse you referred to, Pastor Doug, is Hosea Chapter 4 Verse six, "My people are destroyed because they have a lack of knowledge."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you.

Pastor John Ross: Next caller is Kevin, calling from San Francisco. Kevin, welcome to the program.

Kevin: Good evening, gentlemen, how are you?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well. How can I help you?

Kevin: You know, I just wanted to say one thing really quick, before I get to my question. That ministry that you were alluding to a couple of callers back has some really fine Christian people that don't agree with the president of the ministry. Like you, Pastor Doug, he calls the shots for his church in his ministry, but not necessarily everyone -- and I'm talking about him now -- goes along with what he's saying and it's really unfortunate, but there's nothing this people can do. There's some very sincere, committed Christian people with that ministry over in Oakland, California and. . . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh, I believe that. I've listen to them for years and I can tell when listen to it that a lot of people there are kind of just have to grin and bear it , but they don't really agree with his position.

Kevin: You are exactly right because I've called and talked to their office and spoken to people there and basically, you know, their pleas and their whatever go nowhere with the big boss. Going to my question, Doug, I was listening to you and I don't want to quote you verbatim, but maybe you can fill in the blanks for me. I have questions about what the Bible says about jewelry, in particular. I happened to be listening to you on the air several weeks ago -- might have a been a couple months -- I was listening to your church service, and you made a direct reference to your new Facebook account and you were talking about people that had signed up to be your friend on Facebook and you said that you and your wife were looking at these people and you couldn't believe that some of these people called themselves members of your particular denomination and look the way that they looked. Would you explain this comment and, again, what does the Bible really say? I've heard you give a lot of Old Testament references to jewelry.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well not just jewelry, I think it's also an issue of tattoos, and I was surprised -- you know, Facebook was a new thing for me and I'm learning more about it -- but I was really surprised when all these people were in a Christian forum and they're flexing their muscles and showing off their tattoos and I'm going "Wait a second, don't you read the Bible? It says don't make any markings in your flesh." So I know there's a lot of Christians have tattoos -- maybe they were in the Marines, or who knows -- but I wouldn't take a picture of it and put it up and say, "Look, here's my tattoo."

Kevin: Well, that explains, Doug, that explains better and maybe I can't quote you verbatim, but what you said at the time came across to me as being extremely narrow in judgmental and I'm thinking maybe some of these people were studying through your ministry, maybe they weren't even members of the Adventist church and they were just signing up because they were a fan of your ministry. They listen to your sermons. They gain benefit from them. Like you said, they possibly could have had their tattoos, for example, prior to becoming Christian and maybe never had them removed.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It's more than that. I don't know if you heard everything I said. I was surprised that they're talking about -- these are people who specifically were supposed to be Christians and they were bragging about the parties and of the alcohol. I was shocked that these folks who had joined a specifically Christian forum had -- it seemed to me they just didn't have any shame. I wouldn't go on and say "Oh yeah, I'm part of a Christian forum and by the way, boy we really got drunk last night and what a party. I got this new girlfriend and I hope we go all the way." And I'm going "What the world? These people are part of a Christian forum. Don't they have any propriety of" -- I mean, I grew up in the world and I wouldn't do that. So that's the context of what was happening and if people didn't catch the whole statement or if it was edited then they don't know what the context of that was, but I'm still surprised.

Pastor John Ross: In other words, Pastor, what you're saying is there should be a distinct difference between the Christian and the non-Christian in the way they live, and the way they look, and the way they behave.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We want to let our light shine and talk about Jesus. We don't want to say "look at the tattoo of the Dragon I got." So I'm a little surprised sometimes by what I see. But hey, we need revival. Appreciate your question, Kevin, and by the way, I do have a book -- you asked specifically about jewelry -- and it's called Jewelry, How Much Is Too Much? It goes into what the Bible says about that subject. We'll send you a free copy of that if you'd like. 800-835-6747. Listening friends, please don't forget, we like to get your opinion on the new website called BibleProphecyTruth.com and tell us what you think of that. And don't forget we've just released the cosmicconflict.com DVD and so if you go to cosmicconflict.com, let us know what you think of that. God bless, Jesus the truth. Until next week, bye-bye.

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