The Lemba Tribe

Date: 03/14/2010 
For as long as anyone can remember, the Lemba Tribe in Zimbabwe, South Africa has claimed to descend from Hebrew ancestors. The Lemba people look like regular Africans but they have some very Jewish customs.
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Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor, how about an amazing fact? For as long as anyone can remember, the Lemba Tribe in Zimbabwe, South Africa has claimed to descend from Hebrew ancestors. The Lemba people look like regular Africans but they have some very Jewish customs. For example, they abstain from eating pork and other unclean foods. They’re monotheistic and they keep the Sabbath and shun idolatry. They were --[inaudible]--. They conduct religious animal sacrifices and mark their gravestones with the Star of David.

They even circumcise their male children, which is uncommon in Zimbabwe. For years people have laughed at the Lemba claims of their Jewish heritage. But now according to a recent BBC report, the legend has been backed up by science. British scientists have succeeded in proving the 80,000 member tribe in Zimbabwe, descended from Jewish ancestors. The scientists conducted DNA tests on a large sample of the Lemba people which confirms semitic origins dating back more than 2600 years. In fact, members of the priestly clan of the Lemba were discovered to have a unique genetic element only found among the Jewish priestly line known as Kohen. The reports says the Lemba have a sacred prayer language that combines Hebrew and Arabic.

So how did their Jewish ancestors get there? The tribe’s oral tradition says that centuries ago a small group of men fled the holy land, making a 3,000 mile journey from Israel to Southern Africa. They carried with them a replica of the ark and took African wives along the way. This story does coincide with when the real ark went missing around 586 BC, just before Nebuchadnezzar’s destruction of the Jewish temple. Despite their Jewish roots, many of the Lemba tribe are now Christian.

One pastor explains “Christianity is my religion and Judaism is my culture”. In reality, did you know that the Bible teaches that every Christian has Jewish roots? Stay with us friends. We’re going to learn more as amazing facts brings you this edition of “Bible Answers Live”.


Pastor Doug: Welcome listening friends to a new edition of Bible Answers Live. And if you have a Bible question, we invite you to give us a call right now. We do have some lines open so it’s a good time to pick up your phone and call in with your Bible question. The number 1-800-GODSAYS, we’ll be searching the blessed book together. That’s 1-800-463-7297 and my name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening friends and Pastor Doug, let’s begin our program this evening with a prayer. Dear Father once again we ask that you’d be with us as we take time to search the scriptures. Wanting to discover your truth we pray for wisdom and guidance, be with those who are listening wherever they might be Lord. We pray that you’d be with us in the studios, in Jesus name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug that was a fascinating fact, concerning this tribe down in Zimbabwe. I’ve actually spend some time in Zimbabwe, in Central Zimbabwe. And the last place that you would think to find a group of people that have a tie back to Jewish roots, would be right there in Zimbabwe. But sure enough that it’s been proven that this group, this tribe does have a connection back with this Israel.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I guess that the fingerprints, the DNA fingerprints were pretty significant, where they published it and said “sure enough, you know, none of the surrounding tribes have that signature and this folks have Sinitic origins”. And it also matches historically as you know in the Bible when Nebuchadnezzar surrounded the Israel, he did it actually twice. And he had also conquered Egypt, which was also regular refuge, frequently the Hebrews went to Egypt but he then invaded Egypt and the only place left for them to go was south, because Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon owned everything around Mesopotamia and that territory around Israel. So it’s a very plausible story but it’s fun to look at how this history is being confirmed years later. But I like what this Pastor said, even though their ancestors are Jewish he said, “I’m a Christian by religion”. My heritage is Jewish, and you know, I tell people that. My mother and grandparents were all Jewish but I’m a Christian, but I don’t have to sacrifice being a Jew, and I love telling all my Jewish friends that “I’m still a Jew but I believe in the Messiah”.

So it’s really being a complete Jew. And then I like telling my Christian or Gentile friends, “If you are a Christian, you have to be a Jew because every believer is a spiritual Israelite”, and you know, of course Paul says this in the New Testament, Galatians 3, verse 29, “And if ye be Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heir according to the promise”. And so every believer is in a sense a spiritual Jew. Matter a fact, anyone who believes we’re saved by the New Testament or the new covenant. What the New Covenant says is “I will make a new covenant after those days, says the Lord with the house of Israel”. So the whole New Testament or New Covenant is made with the house of Israel. But then the New Testament writers explained, “This is the spiritual house of Israel, or spiritual Jew is every believer is adopted in, or graphed into the stock of Israel”. And we have a special book, if you’d like to know more about your Jewish roots. We have a book that we’ll send you for free tonight. Pastor Ross?

Pastor Jëan Ross: The Book is entitled, “Spiritual Israel”, and it’s free if you’d call our resource line, 1-800-835-6747. Again, that number is 1-800-835-6747 and the book is entitled, “Spiritual Israel”. Give us a call, we’ll be happy to send that out to you. Well pastor Doug let’s go to the phone lines. Our 1st caller this evening is John, calling from Largo Florida. John, you’re on the program.

John: Good evening gentlemen.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

John: I have a quick question about females in the position of elder. My wife and I belong to a Sabbath keeping denomination, been to church about 7 years and I was recently ordained as an elder several month ago, and we just moved to a new state, and are visiting a new church and for the 1st time in our 7 years, we are finding this church has a large number of female elders and I don’t want to get too caught up on the details but I also can’t find any biblical example of that like I can for a deaconess or a prophetess. And I’m just wondering what the Bible might say about the role of females in the elder position.

Pastor Doug: Okay, 1st thing John, just in case I forget or we don’t get to it. I did, we got a lot of questions on this so I wrote the book, it’s a booklet, it’s probably more accurate on this subject of women in ministry and what the distinctions are made in the Bible. And a quick summary of what I believe, and then I’ll give some scripture, would be that God calls women to, you know, almost numberless areas of ministry.

John: Absolutely.

Pastor Doug: And women can teach, they can preach, they can do mission work doctors, all kinds of things. But when it comes to ordination in the capacity of a pastor, elder, apostle, and you know, I don’t know who the apostles are today, but Jesus ordained apostles. There is no biblical president for women ever being ordained into these roles that really were patriarchal, like the father of a household, these roles were patriarchal in nature, and I don’t think you have biblical support for that. Now even Paul, now Paul’s the one who says in Galatians, that once we’re in Christ, there is nether male nor female Jew or Gentile, Greek or slave, or slave or free. But he wasn’t saying, “there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile” because then he later says, “The gospel goes to the Jew 1st and then to the Gentile”, he makes a distinction right after he says that. But salvation is equally available to everybody regardless of their gender, but that’s different from the roles of men and women in the family and in the church. Husbands should be the servant leaders in the family they should be the priests of the family. Every example of every patriarch in the Bible, Abraham, Job, Isaac, Jacob, you can go on down the line, it was always the men who served in the capacity of priest. Never in the Bible do you see a woman being asked to offer sacrifice. And one of the roles of a pastor or even an elder is to execute the communion, the baptism, so forth. These were sacred right that were to be performed by the priest in the family and the church, and that would be men. Here you’ve got Titus 1:5, Paul says, “For this cause I left you and Crete, that you should set things in order and ordain elders in every city”. It says, “If there be any that are blameless, the husband of one wife”. Well it’d be hard for a woman to be the husband of a wife.

John: Yeah, I was researching that scripture before you took my call and I’m pretty much on the same page. (Laughing)

Pastor Doug: And then you have, where, you know, Peter says… and some people say “Well that’s the tradition of the day”, but the Paul says in Timothy that, you know “God made the man 1st and then He made the woman, and the woman was deceived”, and he goes back and he uses this biblical reference for his position. So it’s not like he was following just a tradition, you know, did Jesus ordain 12 men as apostles because He was caving in to popular tradition? I mean, He actually gave the 1st message of His resurrection to a woman. So there’s nothing wrong with women bearing to good news. But He still, after Judas hung himself, the apostles said, “We need to pick from 2 men, pick one of those men to replace Judas”. And so there was never in the Bible, any question that men were to hold the role of elder or pastor, and you know, we don’t call them, priest today. So, you know, it’s unfortunate, and that doesn’t mean that God is not working through, you know, there may be some ladies serving in the capacity of elder or pastor and God is doing things through them. He may be winking at their biblical ignorance in this area. You know what I’m saying?

John: I do, I just, and my wife and I are struggling here, do we want to transfer our membership here and it seems to me like it would be somewhat of a compromise for us but I also don’t want to become legalistic in my attitude.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, well I’m going to have to ask you, the Lord, and the Holy Spirit to work that one out. So

John: Alright, yeah I understand that

Pastor Doug: So, and biblically, and we’ll send you.

John: I spoke with the pastor and he just, he just simply said that… he didn’t get me an answer, he just said that, “There is no scripture that says, that they can’t be elders”, and he said, “He’s had elders in all of his churches that are women”.

Pastor Doug: Well I do think there are scriptures. I tell you what, we’ll send you a copy of the book because I have a lot of references in the book, it’s “Women in Ministry”, just came out and… well it actually has been a few months. We’ll be happy to send you a copy John, and maybe that will help a little bit, we hope.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Again the number to call, 1-800-835-6747, and the book, “Women in Ministry”, and we’ll be happy to send that out. Our next caller is David and he is calling from Davis California. David, welcome to the program.

David: How are you guys? Can you hear me Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross? Can you hear me?

Pastor Doug: Loud and clear David. How can we help you tonight?

David: I was wondering, when Jesus and they were angels had a plague, what kind of plague was it?

Pastor Doug: That’s a good question, you know, I doubt that they used m16s or some of the pod nun chucks or something. I doubt they used the weapons that we think of. If you read in Ezekiel 9, it tells about, “these angels that are commissioned by God to destroy the hypocrites in Israel”, and it says that, “They have a destroying weapon in their hands”. Now we don’t know what that weapon is. One time, when a plague came to Israel, this plague was destroying a lot of the Israelites because David numbered Israel. He looked in the sky and he saw the angel of the Lord with a sword (inaudible 13:43). Well I don’t know if angels use the same kind of sword that the crusaders used, that may just be a biblical word. So we’re not exactly sure what these spiritual creatures use but they had some kind of accessory weapon and there was a war. So some of it, we have to leave to our imaginations. You there David? Hello David, you with us?

David: Hello?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, can you still hear me?

David: Yeah I hear you.

Pastor Doug: Does that make sense?

David: I guess so, yeah, I’m going to have to take it for what it is.

Pastor Doug: Hey by the way, we do have…what were you going to say, “The Cosmic Conflict”?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah, I was just going to mention... yup! Also, a passage or scripture talking a little bit about this war in heaven, Revelation chapter 12, verse 7 and 8, speaks about, “This war in heaven”. “And Michael and his angels fought against the dragon”, and it says, “The dragon prevailed not and they were forced out of heaven”. So the devil didn’t leave willingly.

Pastor Doug: Yup!

Pastor Jëan Ross: There must have been some sort of an effort to remove him.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. You know, there is a website David that you can go to, where you can see a preview of a new DVD that Amazing Facts just released, it’s animated with recreations, and very colourful, and it’s called “Cosmic Conflict”, it talks about the war in heaven and the fall of Lucifer. And we did our best to try to visualize or recreate what it must have been like with very feeble human means that battle in heaven. Just go to “”, and you’ll find that there. Thank you David, for your call.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, we also have a study guide dealing with this subject

Pastor Doug: Oh yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: of where sin came from, it’s actually entitled, “Did God Create a Devil?”.

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And to receive that study guide absolutely free. Call our resource line 1-800-835-6747 and we will send that out. Our next caller is Michelle and she’s calling from Glendale California. Michelle, welcome to the program.

Michelle: Hi thank you Pastors. My question, my understanding is that the Sabbath is a holy day and that you shall do no work as it says in the 10 commandments. Now what happens to people in professions like doctors and nurses, are they going to be accountable… well not accountable but are they going to be judged on that, because of the profession that they decided to follow or how does that work?

Pastor Doug: Well, now Jesus who, of course is our example, He got into some hot water with the Pharisees because He was healing people on the Sabbath. So, you know, certainly, there’s nothing wrong with it ministering healing on the Sabbath. I do think that Christian and Sabbath keeping doctors and nurses need to be careful not to schedule that they are bust working every Sabbath or pretty soon they’ll miss the fellowship and the proclamation of the word that you get on Sabbath. And so, you want to be rotating in those weeks of service. But, you know, obviously a lot of Sabbath keepers and our church is Seventh Day Adventist, and they’ve got hospitals all over the world, everybody doesn’t evacuate the hospitals on Sabbath and leave all the patients in there languishing. So, you know, Jesus of course, He said, “It’s better to do good on the Sabbath”, but yeah. So there are some emergency humanitarian things, and the Lord is reasonable, but our, you know Jesus was never in the carpenter shop in the Sabbath.

Michelle: Yeah, I see. Because that was my questions, I heard people saying that, “At least they shouldn’t be paid, they should be working for free or things like that”, because my husband is a nurse but he definitely tries to not schedule himself so that he can enjoy the Sabbath, but there are those circumstances that, you know, it does happen that he has to come in, but…

Pastor Doug: Yeah, and my wife was in the medical profession and she’d work at a hospital where sometimes they would schedule her to serve people and to help them on the Sabbath. Personally, my wife would just, she would make that days’ work a donation. And, you know, I think God honours those who choose to do it that way. You can get into a bad habit, if you are taking remuneration every Sabbath for your work, and pretty soon, it becomes another work day. I’m sure Jesus did not issue a bill when he heal people on the Sabbath. Anyway, hope that helps a little bit Michelle, we appreciate your question on that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Eleanor, calling from Queens, New York, listening on WMCA. Eleanor, welcome to the program.

Eleanor: Thank you, good evening

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Eleanor: Pastor Batchelor. My question is, Jesus was speaking of Judas, said “It would be better for him if he had never been born”. Why did He say that?

Pastor Doug: Well, because it’s always better, you might have a bad start during a race, but if you finish well, people will often wink at the bad start or stumbles along the way. Judas finished poorly, and so when the Lord looks at someone who is going to be doomed to everlasting destruction, obviously that breaks His heart and He thinks it would have been better not to have lived, then to have the opportunity of everlasting life. Can you imagine what it will be like in the resurrection of the wicked, for Judas to know, not only is he lost, but he is the human that shows to betray Jesus and send Him to the cross? Can you imagine the incredible shutter of dread that he’ll experience?

Eleanor: But if he’s going to be annihilated, ultimately, it wouldn’t really matter. If annihilation is being taught in the scripture by Jesus, ultimately it wouldn’t matter if he’s going to be annihilated.

Pastor Doug: Well I would think that, if a person’s going to suffer, and those who are raised in the 2nd resurrection do face a judgement, and the Bible talk about, “Their weeping and noshing of tethers, and even punishment, the lake of fire”. So even those who believe annihilation, believe that the lost are cast into the lake of fire, and just knowing that you’ve been responsible for betraying the Lord would be just heart breaking.

Pastor Jëan Ross: But I think also an added sadness to the story of Judas, is what other being has had the opportunity to literally walk with Jesus for 3 and a half years, to witness His miracles, to listen to His teaching,

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: to see God’s character of love manifest through Christ and yet, turn away from that. That’s just a tragic situation, sad ending to a life.

Eleanor: Yes, but all of that does not necessitate never having been born. If you’re going to be annihilated, ultimately your consciousness, everything seizes. So, you know, based on the other teachings of Christ judgement, the story he told about the rich man and Lazarus, it doesn’t add up that…

Pastor Doug: So is your question really on the subject of the faith of the wicked as supposed to Judas?

Eleanor: Well I’m using Judas as an example of Jesus teaching.

Pastor Doug: Right! So do you believe that the wicked will burn forever and ever?

Eleanor: Well I believe they’ll be in torment. The scripture says, “They’ll be tormented day and night, forever and ever”.

Pastor Doug: And so if, let’s suppose there’s a 14 year old boy that dies because he’s, you know, abused drugs, and so he’s going to be lost, he’s also gets the same fate, and then you get Judas who, you know, it’s horrific what he did, they get the same punishment.

Eleanor: Well Jesus spoke about different levels of punishment, He said, “Those who know better will be punished with many stripes, but those who didn’t know better, they will be punished with few strips”.

Pastor Doug: So the 14 year old, he burns but not as hot forever, and Judas burns hotter forever?

Eleanor: Well I don’t know about the hotness of how they burn but I know that Jesus said, “There are different levels of punishment” and I know that.

Pastor Doug: Well there are and we believe that. I mean, yeah, you know, people could suffer different lengths of time in the lake of fire. And I don’t mean to be sarcastic Eleanor but you think about the verses that say, that Jesus said in Matthew chapter 10, “Don’t fear him who destroys the body but cannot hurt your soul, rather fear him who will destroy soul and body in hell” destroy, and of course, you know, John 3:16, there’s 2 choices, everlasting life or perish.

Eleanor: Yeah. Perish has a different meaning.

Pastor Doug: When you get to the New Testament… When you get to Revelation, and it said that, “God will wipe away all tears and there is no more pain”. So people are suffering in torment through endless ages, for the sins of 1 brief lifetime. I mean how long is 70 years compared to eternity? It’s not even a spec.

Eleanor: He said, “There’s no more pain for those who are in heaven”. (Inaudible)

Pastor Doug: he didn’t say, “For those in hell”. Well, and God says, “I make all things new”. Now if there are still sinners immortalized, then how are all things made new?

Eleanor: Well when He speaks, “I make all things new”. Okay, if you’re in Christ, you’re a new creation, “All things anew for those who are in Christ”.

Pastor Doug: Alright, let’s look at one more verse, and then I want to offer you a free study guide. If you look in Malachi chapter 4, and it says, “Behold the day is coming that will burn as an oven and all the proud, and all that do wickedly will be stubble: the day that comes we’ll burn them up, it will leave them neither root nor branch”. And so, when you look at the descriptions that are given to the wicked, it uses terms like, “destroy, consume, perish”. “Never shout thou be anymore, that’s what Ezekiel says. Into smoke they will consume away, is what David says. Ashes stubble”. I mean the words that are used to describe the fate of the wicked are also perfectly permanent, that I don’t know what other words God would draw on to explain that “the wicked are going to be punished and then they’ll be no more”?

Pastor Jëan Ross: The verse you just quoted, Malachi chapter 4, verse 1. Again, talks about the wicked being consumed, burnt up, nothing’s left.

Pastor Doug: Revelation 20 calls it the 2nd death it’s the absence of life. Eleanor, please take a look at the study we’ll send you on, “Is the Devil in charge of Hell?”

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747, and ask for the study guide, “is the Devil in charge of Hell?” You can also go to the Amazing Facts website

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: dealing with the subject called “”.

Pastor Doug: Please do that, anyone who’s got a question on this, we’re not teaching a new doctrine, this is a very old doctrine it goes back through the Bible. It’s that there is a lake of fire, it’s not burning yet, I mean, God hasn’t even had a judgement yet so why would people be burning in hell yet? And if you want more information, there’s lots of it at that website “”. We have time maybe for one more call before the break.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Dina, calling from New York, New York. Listening on WMCA, Dina welcome to the program.

Dina: Yeah, thank you. I have a question, if somebody gave my sister a audio Bible?

Pastor Doug: Yes

Dina: (inaudible25:23) that is prohibited production of any copyright. So I told my sister that, she told me that…

Pastor Doug: Well, because if it’s copyright

Dina: She gave the Bible to somebody so they could read the reproduction. She want to give the copy to an elderly person because that person doesn’t have the money to buy the Bible.

Pastor Doug: I know, that’s always heart ranching when, you know, what you could really ask cause is it okay to steal a Bible if somebody doesn’t have one. The Gideon’s put Bible in the hotel rooms all over the country and they know that people are going to take them out of the rooms and I think that they’re okay with that. But when it comes to someone making an audio production of the Bible, it caused them a lot make it, you have to get the permission of the producers if you’re going to copy it. Because you know, the Bible also tells us to obey the laws of the land and it violates certain copyright laws. Now “Amazing Facts” are being pretty generous with people reproducing our audio tapes and Cd’s. I guess we don’t use tapes anymore. But you need to still get permission to do those things. And what we get guard against is if someone says “I’d like to make them and sell them” well, then you’re making merchandise of somebody else’s work, that’s not honest. So you need to contact the publishers of that and see if you can get permission.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well, you know, there’s probably available online, some audio Bibles that’s free.

Pastor Doug: That’s true.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Just download and burn it into a disk, and give it to somebody, so there are other ways.

Pastor Doug: They’re copies right of the audio, I’ve heard, there’s website that will read the Bible for you right there in the internet. You could probably copy off the internet and put in on a mp3 and give it to your friend. Hope that helps a little Dina. How much time? We got 2 minutes, we do a quick one.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, let’s go to John who is calling from Arcadia, California. John welcome to the program.

John: Evening Pastors.

Pastor Doug: Evening, we’ve got just a couple minutes before the break John can we do a quick question?

John: Sure, in the time of Elijah, when Elijah pray for fire to rain down, God answered his prayer but when they answered, they prayed to Baal to do it, which was Satan didn’t have that power, in the book Revelation, it seems like Satan will have that power.

Pastor Doug: How do you reconcile those 2?

John: Yeah, how does… Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Well, I’ll give you a quick answer. Satan does have the power to bring fire down, because in the book of Job, it tells us that one of the things that the devil did was he rain fire down and burned up the flocks of Job. I think the Lord was present there for Elijah on Mt. Carmel and prevented the profits of Baal or even the devil from concocting or fabricating or manufacturing this miracle of fire. And so it showed really how impotent those profits were. And in the last days, Satan’s evidently going to have the power to create the illusion anyway, of fire coming down from heaven and there is more to that verse than appears on the surface. Hey, we’re not going away friends we’re just going to take a break. We’ve got a couple of important announcements for you. Pick up your phone call in your Bible questions. We’ll be right back.


Pastor Doug: Hello friends, we’re back! If you joined us along the way, this is Bible Answers Live, as the title explains, it’s a live international, interactive Bible study, you can all in with your Bible question, still have a couple lines open. 1-800-GOD-SAYS, that’s 463-7297. And my name is still Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And my name is Jëan Ross. Just a reminder friends, the free offer for this evening is entitled, “Spiritual Israel, and that is a book that we’d be happy to send to you if you’d call our resource line, which is 1-800-835-6747. And the number here to the studio, if you have a Bible question, is 1-800-463-7297.

Pastor Doug: You know friends, if we haven’t mentioned it yet during this broadcast. We only do this program Sunday night, and we prayed about doing it 5 nights a week, a lot of people have said, “why don’t you go 5 nights a week?” Of course that’s a pretty committed schedule. But one way we are able to do this, is we sort of can do it 7 nights a week. If you discover our website, there is so much information, not only can you hear the Bible Answers Live programs but we’ve got video of Bible Answers. There are a lot of messages, books, a lot of the answers that we give, including the book on “difficult Bible questions, book of Amazing Facts”. If you go to the Amazing Facts website, it’s so easy to remember the address. All you’ve got to do is remember “Amazing Facts”. You type that into Google, or you type in “, .org, .tv, .net”, it’ll take you to our website and a lot of information there. We got some exiting announcements that are coming up pretty soon. It looks like Amazing Facts is going to be having a TV channel, 24 hours a day on Galaxy 19, where you can get the spectrum of Amazing Facts programs 24 hours a day. And we’ll be telling you more about that as the launch time comes, but just keep that in your prayer. So, check out “”. We also have a website that specializes in Bible prophecy, if that’s your interest, it’s very simply, “, Bibleprophecytruth, just type that all together, .com”, got great resources there on everything from Armageddon, to the Mark of the Beast.

Shall we go back to the phones?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright! Next caller is Bedel, calling from Huntsville Alabama. Bedel, welcome to the program.

Bedel: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi!

Bedel: How you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good! And you’re question tonight?

Bedel: I don’t know if this question has been asked before, but in Genesis chapter 6, verse 4, before the flood, it talks about “These Giants that were in the earth”, also called “Nephilim”. And in the same verse it says, “Do sons of God went into the daughters of men”, are they talking about “angels that mated with the woman or are these people of the church who just decided not to go the Godly way anymore”?

Pastor Doug: Well if you look at the phrase “Sons of God”, most of the time in the Bible, when you find that, it’s talking about people. If you look for instance in 1st John chapter 3, it says, “Behold what manner of love the Father’s bestowed on us, that we should be called the Sons of God”.

Bedel: Okay.

Pastor Doug: You can also read in Isaiah 56, it tells them, “I will give them a name better than Sons and Daughters of God”. Now Romans 8, 14, “As many as are led by the Spirit, they are the Sons of God”. 2nd Corinthians 6, 18, it says, “You will be my sons and my daughters”. The descendants of Seth, back before the flood, with Adam and Eve, Cain killed Abel, he left, he turned his back on God. And Cain and his descendants were called “The Sons of Men”. They were carnal”, the word “man” there is Enos and they were mortal. Seth and his descendants continue to offer sacrifice to God, trust in God, believe in God, and it’s through Seth that you get Enoch who walked with God, Noah who walked with God, they were descendants of Seth, they were called the “Sons of God”.

Bedel: Okay.

Pastor Doug: When the sons of God, the descendants of Seth began to intermarry with the descendants of Cain, it says, “Great wickedness came into the world through intermarriage between the believers and the unbelievers. Now it does say “there children were giants and mighty men”, that is not surprising, it is a very basic Pattern called “Genetic vitality”. If you get 2 races that are separated for several generations, and then you bring back and mingle the genes, you get a “vitality”. That’s why there are certain diseases that are particular to certain breeds of dog or even humans.

Bedel: okay.

Pastor Doug: but when you cross breeding, sometime the most intelligent… going back to the dog illustration or the mutts, it’s called “Genetic vitality”. Do you know you can cross… this is absolutely true… you can cross a tiger and a lion and you get an animal it’s a cat called the “Liger”.

Bedel: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And they are the biggest cats in the world, they are giants. And so, that’s genetic vitality. You cross a donkey and a horse, and you can get a great big old mule, bigger than the horse or the donkey. And so that’s what was happening here, it was just, they weren’t aliens, they weren’t angels, it was the sons and daughters of Seth… or I should say, the sons of Seth were inter marrying with the daughters of Cain and they had some remarkable children.

Bedel: okay then.

Pastor Doug: Alright! Hey I appreciate your question.

Bedel: Alright, thank you.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Ester, and she’s calling from Brooklyn, New York. Ester, welcome to the program.

Ester: Thank you for taking my call. I just 1st want to thank for making the Amazing Facts app available. If you’re listening (inaudible 36:30- 36:32) get that.

Pastor Doug: Yeah!

Ester: My question is…

Pastor Doug: Hey get real close to your phone, I can barely hear you.

Ester: Hello!?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, that’s better.

Ester my question is in regards to the Sabbath. I was raised to observe the Sabbath on a Sunday, and lately, you know, I’m hearing some people that are observing Sabbath on Saturday, and I’m just concerned because I do work on the Sabbath on Saturday. And I just want your opinion on the Sabbath and, you know, just like your previous caller about what…

Pastor Doug: What day is it? Yeah! You’re wondering really… According to the Bible, “What day is it and does it matter?” I think is really at the heart of your question.

Ester: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Well I’m convinced from the scriptures, there’s really no question that the 7th day of the week biblically, is what we commonly call “Saturday”. You’re not going to find the words, “Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday” in the Bible. Those are name that we get from the Romans. They were dedicated to different deities and planets. In the Bible, the Jews referred to the days as a number. They had the “1st day, 2nd day, preparation day was Friday, 7th day was Saturday”. We know today, of course, the whole Jewish nation still celebrates the 7th day of the week Saturday. The early church, for the 1st 300 years, celebrated the 7th day on Saturday. It’s when the church began to mingle with the pagans in Rome they began to adopt “2 days” for a while. The people in Rome in the time of Constantine, they kept both Saturday and Sunday, because the pagan’s principle weekly feast was the day of the sun, the called it, “The venerable day of the sun”, and that’s where you get the word “Sunday”. And so to try and accommodate everybody for a while, they kept 2 days. Matter a fact, even in our culture, the weekend is those 2 days. That’s because of the Jewish influence and the Christian influence from the Catholic era. But if you look in the dictionary, you look up 7th day, it’ll say “Saturday”. It says, “God bless the 7th day”. The Muslims keep the 6th day, they keep Friday. Christians observe the 1st day, many Christians because of the resurrection, and that’s Sunday, and it says in the Bible, “that was the 1st day when He rose”. So there is no question, if Jesus died on Friday, He slept through the Sabbath, He even kept the Sabbath in his death on Saturday, He rose Sunday. Virtually, everyone agrees on those things. So your next big question is, “does it make a difference”. You might be thinking “as long as it’s 1 day and 7th, does it matter whether it’s Saturday or Sunday”? Are you wondering that?

Ester: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Well here’s the way I’d respond. It doesn’t say in the commandment, “Remember to keep a Sabbath holy”, it says, “Keep the Sabbath holy, the Lord blessed the 7th day and He hollowed it and God rested on the 7th day”. So if we’re choosing to pick a day other than the one that God specifically said, “He rested on, He blessed, and He hallowed, that He sanctified”. I think that we’re then, kind of, we’re creating our own Sabbath, as supposed to going with the creators Sabbath. So that’s why I’m 1 of the thousands of pastors around the world that thinks that we should go back to the Bible pattern.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know Ester we have some additional information for you, that I think you’ll find very helpful dealing with this subject on the Sabbath. 1st is an Amazing Facts study guide entitled, “The Last Day of History”, it gives a little bit of the history of the Sabbath. And then we also have a website called, “, or .com”, which also gives you a whole lot of verse and scripture, there’s some video you can even watch dealing with this subject.

Pastor Doug: The history of it.

Pastor Jëan Ross: history of the Sabbath.

Pastor Doug: yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Excellent resource, “”.

Pastor Doug: We want people to follow the Bible, that’s why this is Bible Answer Live, and if you’re going to be a Bible Christian, there’s really no question about which day is the biblical Sabbath. And I know many Sunday ministers will freely admit, they say, “You’re right Pastor Doug, Saturday is the Sabbath”. But, you know, sometimes they say, “Well, we think the 10 commandments are nailed to the cross so it doesn’t matter anymore”, or they say, “Jesus rose on the 1st day, so it became a new Sabbath”. Off course there’s no scripture that says that became the new Sabbath, and all these different reasons for keeping Sunday but you can’t really find a Bible commandment anywhere. So I figure we’re safer sticking with what the scripture’s saying. Thank you for your call Ester. And, got another question?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes! Our next caller is DJ, and he is calling from Idaho, listening on 3ABN radio. DJ welcome to the program.

DJ: It’s a “she”.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Oh hi!

Pastor Doug: Couldn’t tell from the initials but we know now.

DJ: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug: And your question?

DJ: I’m hoping you can answer it better than someone else because I just don’t get it.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

DJ: Justification by faith.

Pastor Doug: What is justification by faith?

DJ: Yes can you explain that?

Pastor Doug: Alright, we are not normally just because we’ve sinned. Sin is breaking God’s law, that’s wrong, it’s unjust. So we stand under judgement, the penalty of sin is death but God so loved us, He said, “look, I’m going to trade places with you, you deserve this death penalty. I’m going to come to the earth as a man. I’m going to live a victorious sinless life, but then in spite of my sinless life, I’m going to die for your sins and I’ll give you credit for my perfect life”. When we accept His sacrifice in our place, God looks at us as though we are just because of our faith in Christ sacrifice. So we are declared to be just by faith in Jesus. Even in the Old Testament, when that angel of death went through the land of Egypt, the Jews that believed in the sacrifice of the lamb, the took that blood, they put it on the door of their house, they were declared innocent and that angel of judgement passed by them, they were forgiven, they were spared, and it was because of their faith in the lambs blood. We, through faith in Christ, the Lamb of God, through faith in His blood, we can be saved, we can be forgiven.

DJ: So if we say, if we believe that Jesus died for us, then that is going to be justified by faith?

Pastor Doug: That’s what justification… Now salvation isn’t all finished with justification. And theirs 3 words, you’ll find justification, that means, “You come just like you are and you can be forgiven and accepted just like you are”. You have then sanctification that means, “Now that you are a Christian, you kind of go through the wilderness and you will learn to trust and to follow the Lord”, it’s an on-going process of walking with God. Then finally, we’ll be in God’s presence when salvation is complete, and that’s called “Glorification”, we’re in glory. So justification is how you come to the Lord just as you are. Sanctification is then you continue to walk with the Lord. And glorification is someday we’ll be in glory with Him.

DJ: Okay. So having said that He died for you and coming to Him just as you are that’s justified?

Pastor Doug: Yes! Matter a fact we have a study guide on this that talks about salvation. Pastor Ross, why don’t we send this to DJ so you’ve got, it’s got great illustrations in it as well?

Pastor Jëan Ross: I think the one you’re thinking of is entitled, “Rescue from above”, it deals with this subject of, “What is justification, how do we receive this gift from God?” To receive the study guide, call 1-800-835-6747, and just ask for the study guide, “Recue from Above” friends, we’ll be happy to send that out, great resource for anybody wanting to learn more about this subject. Well let’s go to our next caller. And we’re going to go to Robert who is calling from New York. Robert, welcome to the program.

Robert: Hi pastors!

Pastor Doug: Yes?

Robert: Hi, good evening Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross… And by the way, I’m not calling from New York I’m calling from New Jersey.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Well, nobody’s perfect, but go ahead. (Laughing)

Robert: (Laughing) Okay. My question is about Judas and Pilate. Now why should either one of them be condemned for what they did? One by being a traitor to Christ, and the other by judging Christ and sentencing Him to death because somebody had to do it in order for Christ to take the penalty for our sins, and it was even predicted in the Old Testament scripture. So why would they have to be condemned for they would have had to do it anyway? Somebody had to do it.

Pastor Doug: That’s a good question that’s often asked but I’d like to get you to think about wording your question differently

Robert: Okay.

Pastor Doug: and that can give you the answer. Were they punished because they were forced by prophecy to be the pawns that God used to fulfil prophecy? Or did prophecy know that somebody would do these evil things?

Robert: Well…

Pastor Doug: Was it prophecy making them do it? Or did prophecy know in advance they would do it?

Robert: Would know in advance they would.

Pastor Doug: So they were still guilty for their choices just like any criminal is. Prophecy just knew in advance, they would make those choices.

Robert: But the real question is, could have either of them, at any point have been repentful and been forgiven?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, how do we know that one of the other apostles didn’t think about it and decide not to?

Robert: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And so, you know, there are probably a lot of people are tempted to do things they don’t do and the Bible simply records the ones who did do it.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, it’s also interesting to know, that what was needed for man’s salvation was Jesus laying down His life. Now let’s say for example, Pilate or even Judas did not go through with that, of betraying Christ or crucifying Him. Christ would have laid down his life for mankind, even if that didn’t mean going to the cross.

Pastor Doug: And the devil probably would have found some other pawns because most of the world listens to the devil, he’s the prince of this world. Satan would have probably found some other pawns that surrendered to him, to be his instruments. The sad thing is that Judas, one of Jesus apostles choose to listen to the temptations of the devil.

Robert: Alright! Thank you pastors.

Pastor Doug: Thank you, it’s a big question, you know, we talk about prophecy, fulfilment, and destiny, and

Robert: Okay.

Pastor Doug: predestination, appreciate that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Dean, listening on WMUZ, from Detroit Michigan. Dean, welcome to the program.

Dean: Hi.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Dean: My questions comes out of Exodus, it’s when God inflicted the plagues on the people of Egypt, when they wouldn’t let His people go and it appears that He destroyed the livestock of Egypt on 3 different occasions. In Exodus 9:6, all forth Exodus 9:25 and then again, the 1st one of the (inaudible 47:27) Exodus 11:5. And I’m just curious on how much time, you know, was in-between and where the new cattle comes from?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, that is a good question I’ve looked at that before and evidently in Exodus 9:6 when it says, “all the cattle of Egypt died”. When you go from Hebrew to English, sometimes we’re imperfect, this were probably more accurately be translated “all kinds of cattle died”, not “all the cattle died”, because, you know, few verses later talks about another plague where more cattle died from other things. And it is possible, keep in mind Egypt was, it was the New York City of the world. It was the center of trade and there were caravans coming in and out of Egypt from every other part of the world. And so this was a localized slaughter in the capital of, not the whole land of Egypt but in the capital of the city. And I’m sure caravans were bringing other animal and things. And they probably can make a lot of money pretty quick with all the plagues hitting Egypt, by bringing more supplies, so they had a regular interstate full of camel trucks that were coming in and out with different other creatures. So I’m sure that there was an influx of new animals pretty quick.

Dean: Okay, there wasn’t a complete wipe out of all the cattle’s, perhaps it was all kinds of…

Pastor Doug: All kinds of cattle in Egypt were destroyed and…

Dean: Alright, well thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: Alright, I appreciate your question.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Kim and she is calling from, listening on WMUC from Michigan. Kim welcome to the program.

Kim: Hi

Pastor Doug: Hi Kim, and your question tonight?

Kim: Yes, my question is, if there is a literal hell and literal fire in that hell?

Pastor Doug: Well if you read in Revelations chapter 20, it talks about the fate of the wicked and it does say that they’re cast into, those that are judged out of the book of life and the book of records they’re cast into the lake of fire. It’s not burning yet because obviously judgement day and the resurrection have not happened. They’re both very clearly in the future, and so God is not going to plunge the person into hell, burn them, pull them out and then judge them, say, “Sure enough, you were guilty” and put them back in hell. Some people take this parable in the rich man in Lazarus and they try to use a parable to give support to the idea that people are already burning in hell. But the Bible says, “The wicked is reserved unto the day of judgement”. They’re reserved they’re on hold until the day of judgement. But it’s pretty clear that the way that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was with fire and brimstone, and it says that, “Sodom and Gomorrah”, in the book of Jude and I believe its 2nd Peter, “there set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of fire”. And so, yeah, God uses fire to purify and He’s going to make a new heavens and a new earth, and so the wicked are destroyed in fire.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, we also find in 2nd Peter chapter 3, verse 7, that tells us when the fires of hell will actually burn, it says “but the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement”. So when does the fires of hell burn? Well, that’s something to do with the judgement. And it’s in reserved, it’s being held back until that point in time.

Pastor Doug: Yes, chapter 3 of 2nd Peter I think, it says “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt.” So when do they melt? The day of the Lord will come and so after the Lord comes, the beginning of the judgement of the wicked is not over yet. But 1st part of the wicked who are alive, they’re going to experience a little fire right when the Lord comes. So that’s why the Bible verses are very clear on this. Hey Kim, I hope you don’t have to worry about it.

Kim: No, I’m not worried about it. What I’m concerned with though, is that if you say to people as, you know, you all are pastors, if you’re saying to someone that there is no literal hell now, a literal fire now and that doesn’t create an urgencies for (inaudible 51:41).

Pastor Doug: Well…

Kim: And I understand what you’re saying about (inaudible 51:46)

Pastor Doug: It does really…

Kim: but Luke is parabolic but I submit to you that it’s not because I mean, when you look at that word where Jesus said, “He lifted up His eyes in torment”. When you look at that word in Greek, that word means “fire”.

Pastor Doug: Alright. I’m not questioning.

Kim: That word torment means fire.

Pastor Doug: I agree with you, I’m not questioning that the word doesn’t mean that, I’m just simply saying “is that a literal discourse Christ is giving on an actual event”? If that’s an actual event, well, let’s think about it now, if that’s an actual event and this we’re talking friends is about, it’s one parable, you only find it in one gospel, it’s in Luke chapter 16. And it says that “everybody that dies goes to Abraham’s bosom”, well there is nowhere else in the Bible where it says that “all the dead goes to Abraham’s bosom”. We all hope we’re going to Christ. Furthermore it says “the people in heaven and hell are talking together” and so let’s certainly hope there’s not, you know, a connection where people in heaven and hell are talking.

Kim: No, not after He went to the cross, that’s a deeper study though. I just kind of wanted to focus on the part of “when the wicked die now”.

Pastor Doug: Well, you asked about the motivation. You asked about motivation. If a wicked person dies now, and their next conscious thought is the resurrection and the judgment and hell fire. As far as they’re concerned, as soon as they die, the next thing they know is being raised among the lost and facing judgement in the lake of fire. So I don’t know why that would be less of a motivation then thinking that…

Kim: Oh, so I see. So you’re saying, so you believe in the sleep then, is that what it is?

Pastor Doug: As soon as, any if you’re saved or if you’re lost, as soon as you die, you’re next conscious thought is either to be present with the Lord or judgement. But the Lord hasn’t come yet, you agree with that.

Kim: Oh Yeah. I do.

Pastor Doug: And the resurrection hasn’t happened yet, and the Bible says that when the Lord comes all that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, so obviously someone’s sleeping that gets woke up when the Lord comes, and that’s what I believe.

Kim: No, that sleep is not the kind of sleep like what you think it is. Because if you think about it just as Paul said in Philippians chapter 2, he said, well he talks about “to die is gain but to live is Christ”. Well he said, when he die, he will be with Christ. That’s an immediate thing. When you’re a believer, you die, you are with Christ immediately.

Pastor Doug: Well…

Kim: And when you’re an unbeliever, you die you are in hell, immediately.

Pastor Doug: The next thought, when, of course we live in the time but when a believer dies, their next conscious thought is the presence of the Lord, there’s no time that goes by for them. But I know you believe that, it says there in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, “the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, then the dead in Christ will rise” how can they rise if they’re already risen? And He gives rewards, he says “Behold I come”, now this is very important and I think this is what Revelations chapter 1?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Revelations chapter 22 (inaudible)

Pastor Doug: Yes, its Revelations chapter 22,

Pastor Jëan Ross: 22

Pastor Doug: and I think also in Revelation chapter 1, verse 7 “behold He comes and…

Pastor Jëan Ross: and every eye will see Him.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, right. “My reward is with me” Revelations chapter 22. So if He’s giving people rewards when He comes, then they can’t be getting the rewards before He comes.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That’s Revelations 22, verse 12, Jesus says “behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according to his works shall be”

Pastor Doug: Oh, one more verse Kim is in the parable of “the Wheat and the Tares” and, He says that the wheat is gathered in the barn and the tares are gathered and burned and Jesus said “so shall it be at the end of the world, God will send forth His angels and they will gather together all at to defend, bind them in bundles and they’ll be burned at the end of the world.” so they’re not burning yet and that’s, really when you think about it that’s a comforting thought that if you’ve got loved ones that are lost, that they’re not roasting right now while we walk the earth. This is all going to come with the judgement. Please take a look at our website, it’s called “”, it’s got a little bit of a spooky homepage, we’ve got some good Bible information on it. And, I think it’s right there on the 1st page in Google, out of a million searches when you search the subject of hell. Do we have time for one more question?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes

Pastor Doug: 1 minute, let’s see what we can do.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Let’s see, Carmel is calling from Brooklyn, New York. Carmel, welcome to the program.

Carmel: Yes, Good evening Pastor.

Pastor Doug: We’ve got 1 minute Carmel can we do a quick question?

Carmel: Yes Pastor, I like to know about communion, the world will said if you know somebody hate you, you shouldn’t take communion. I always hear people say that. When Jesus was at the table, he knows that Judas Iscariot hate Him.

Pastor Doug: Right, I don’t think that it’s accurate to say “if somebody hates you, you can’t participate in the communion”. But if you have animosity and unforgiveness in your heart or bitterness in your heart for somebody else, it’s really coming from your heart. I can’t control other people’s heart, I mean there are people everywhere that hate me, but that can’t keep me from having communion. What prevents me from having peace, when I come to the Lord’s Table, I need to have forgiveness in my heart for others Carmel. And so it’s really on what’s happening in your heart, that’s the big issue. Oh, listening friends, this hour go so quick, it’s hard for me to believe, when they tell us we’ve got 3 minutes left. Hey, we’d love to hear from you, just go to “” and click contact us. God bless, until next week.


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