Symbols and Swords

Date: 11/24/2019 
Did you know that turkeys are actually highly intelligent and affectionate animals? They even like to be petted and cuddled. What does this have to do with the Bible? Listen to find out more ...
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Doug: Hello friends, would you like to hear a few amazing facts about turkeys? In the USA, 88% of Americans will eat turkey on Thanksgiving. That means about 46 million birds will be gobbled. In the early 1930s, wild turkeys were hunted nearly to extinction, but restoration programs across North America have helped the birds make a good comeback. Turkeys are actually highly intelligent and affectionate animals. They love to be stroked, petted or even cuddled. Turkeys can communicate using over 20 distinct vocalizations, and they can clearly identify each other's voices.

Only the males make the famous gobble that can be heard a mile away. Wild turkeys can run at speeds of up to 25 miles an hour and fly as fast as 55 miles an hour for a short distance, whereas the domesticated turkeys, they've been bred to be bigger and fatter, so they're unable to fly. Only males have the colorful feathers and the long fleshy object on the beak called a snood. The males are also considerably larger than the females. The largest wild turkey on record was 37 pounds but the biggest domestic turkey was over twice that at 86 pounds. Talk about a big bird.

Turkeys have incredible memories and they're able to map the precise details of over a 1,000 acre place. Many hunters know turkeys also have excellent vision, about three times better than a human, and they can spot any movement a hundred yards away. When a turkey becomes frightened, or agitated, or excited, the exposed skin on its head and neck can change from its usual pale pink or bluish-gray to red, white, or blue, red, white or blue. Maybe that's why Benjamin Franklin thought wild turkeys should have made a better National emblem for the U.S. than the bald eagle. Did you know the Bible and prophecy says that different animals represent different empires? Stay with us friends. We're going to learn more on this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Speaker 1: You're listening to Bible Answers Live. Honest answers to your Bible questions. This broadcast is a previously recorded episode. To receive any of the Bible resources mentioned in this evening's program, call 800-835-6747. Once again, that's 800-835-6747. Now, let's join our host, Pastor Doug Batchelor and our co-host, Pastor Jean Ross.

Doug: Welcome listening friend to Bible Answers Live and this is a live international interactive Bible study. You are welcome to call-in wherever you are if you hear this. Of course, if you're in North America, you simply call 800-463-7297. We know as the holidays are on the way, some are on the road, and you're welcome to call. A lot are listening on satellite radio. We're also streaming on Facebook. If you actually want to join us visually in the studio here, you can watch our stream. Just go to the Doug Batchelor Facebook page, or you can go to the Amazing Facts Facebook page and just get the live stream here, and I'm Doug Batchelor.

Jean: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening friends. Pastor Doug as we always do, let's start the program with prayer. Dear Father in heaven, we thank you once again that we can open up your word and study together. We do ask for you to come and guide our hearts, our minds, be with those who are listening wherever they might be Lord, and lead us together to clearly understand the wonderful promises and your word, for we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.

Doug: Amen.

Jean: Pastor Doug, you opened the program talking about turkeys. It's an appropriate subject for this time of the year. We're coming up on Thanksgiving, and I know there's a lot of people planning and thinking, and talking about how they're going to prepare their Thanksgiving turkey. Of course, we're talking mostly about those turkeys that are bought in the supermarket, not the wild turkeys that run around, although probably, there are some folks that try and hunt them as well.

Doug: All they've got to do is come to Sacramento because it seems like since I've been here in the last 25 years, turkeys are just-- we used to have them run all-- I get what, a dozen of them. I took a picture of my backyard in the suburbs here on our new property, the Amazing Facts office. We look out our window, we see turkeys. You got chased-- we got you on video being chased by a wild turkey. The parking lot security caught Pastor Ross. A wild turkey was-- I think he was looking for a girlfriend.

Jean: This turkey, he liked to come right up to the car and then look at his reflection in the car. He'd get his feathers all up. One time I wanted to get in my car, he wouldn't let me. He started chasing me around the vehicle.


Doug: If any of you are short on a turkey for Thanksgiving, just come out here to California and visit us, but we're not really talking about the birds. We’re talking about how in the Bible, different animals are often used and sometimes even birds, like one is an eagle. Different animals are used to identify different creatures or empires, I should say. Now we do that today. You say, "A lion," you think Great Britain, or if you think of a dragon, people think of China. The Bald eagle, as I mentioned, is the United States, but there are a number of beasts mentioned in the Bible that represent nations. We've got a special book on prophecy that talks about that.

Jean: Now, a lot of folks are asking, we get this question from time to time, does the Bible talk about the United States, because the U.S. is a very important power, and what about end-time events? Does it play a significant role? Our study guide today actually delves and deals with these very questions called The U.S. in Bible Prophecy. Actually, it's referring to a prophecy that you find in Revelation Chapter 13. There are two beasts that are featured there. The first comes from the sea. The second comes from the earth.

If you'd like to learn what the Bible has to say about the United States in Bible Prophecy, call and ask for that study guide. Again, it's called The USA in Bible Prophecy, and the number to call is 800-835-6747, that is our resource phone line and just ask for the study guide called The U.S in Prophecy. If you have a Bible question, the phone line here to the studio this evening is 800-463-7297. That's 800-463-7297. First caller that we have this evening, Patricia is listening in Washington. Patricia, welcome to the program.

Patricia: Hi, can you hear me?

Doug: Loud and clear. Thanks for calling.

Patricia: Yes, good evening. Thanks for taking my call. My call is about Isaiah 25:6, and I believe that verse to be future answer in heaven, but it seems as though it's mentioning alcohol and meat. I didn't think that there would be any deaths in heaven, so I'm thinking of this verse is symbolic but I'm not sure. Every translation that I've looked at has-

Doug: Let me read this, Patricia. If it's okay, let me read it for our listeners because a lot of people-- We're talking about the verse. I want to give them the context. A lot are driving down the road and they can't look it up. We're looking at Isaiah 25:6, and it is talking, I believe, about the future and the reward of the righteous. It says, "And in this mountain, the Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces. A feast of wines on the lees, of fat,"-- that means the mountains. "A feast of things full of marrow" that was the richest part. "Of the well-refined wines on the lees."

If you read in the next verse, it talks about-- it says-- we'll go to verse 8. It says, "He'll swallow up death forever and the Lord will wipe away all tears." That's a parallel of Revelation 20 when God dries all tears from their eyes. Sorry, 21, when God dries all tears. He is talking about the future, but Isaiah is using poetic language here for the Israelites. When they came to a feast, the very richest part of the feast was the well-refined wine where it was strained so there was no skins or bitterness in it. It was sweet.

It was talking about the choice pieces of the sacrifice. You're right. It sounds like it's talking about meat and marrow and wine. He's simply saying everything in heaven will be the richest that you can imagine, but no, there's not going to be-- God's not going to be getting people drunk in heaven, and there's not going to be any animals being killed in heaven. Isaiah is using poetic language. It's what we would call hyperbole.

Patricia: Yes, because I have not seen anybody explain it. In fact, I've seen websites where they say-- They use that verse as an indication that God is not against alcohol, and that Jesus did in fact convert water into alcohol as his first miracle.

Doug: Well, that's actually another question where we're talking about what does the Bible say about alcohol? Nowhere in this verse does it say it's fermented. The word wine in the Bible, you don't find the word grape juice. The word wine is used for both the fermented and the unfermented. The unfermented is typically called new wine. Matter of fact Isaiah—What verse is that, Pastor Ross, where he says, "As the new wine is in the clusters." Is that Isaiah 65? Then God says, "Do not destroy it for there's a blessing in it." He calls it wine, but it's clearly not fermented, because he calls it new wine.

Jean: Isaiah 65:8.

Doug: Yes, so I don't believe He's talking about alcoholic wine here. I think it's talking about sweet or well-refined wine, because they would strain the grapes to try to get all the skin and seed out, and the best wine was well strained. It's not talking about people getting drunk in heaven or that they're going to slaughter animals. He's just talking about the choices. By the way, we have a book, we'll be happy to share with you for free, that talks about alcohol in the Bible. What does it say? Should a Christian drink alcohol? If you call the resource number, we'll send you a free copy of that book.

Jean: The number to call if you'd like to receive that is 800-835-6747, and you can ask for the book called The Christian and Alcohol. We'll be happy to send it to anyone who calls and asks. Again, just ask for the book on alcohols called The Christian and Alcohol. We’ll send it out to you. Next caller that we have, looks like we got Chad listening from Michigan. Chad, welcome to the program.

Chad: Hi, there, nice to talk with you.

Jean: Thanks for calling.

Chad: Yes. My question is about 1st John 2:19. In this day and age, and in the news and such, you hear about famous Christians that leave the faith. I can think of Joshua Harris. Joshua Harris was one who was recently in the news, I Kissed Dating Goodbye guy who left Christianity. One of the things that Christian commenters say about that is they go, “Well, he was never really in the faith.” In order to defend that-

Jean: Yes, I don't buy that.

Chad: Right, so they defend, once saved, always saved, that the person was never really in the faith. Well, in one of the verses that they cite for that is 1st John 2:19. I don't know if you want to read it or I can.

Speaker 1: Yes. It says here that, “They went out from us but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest that none of them were with us.” John is speaking here of a specific group that are not believing in the divinity of Christ, and even calls of the teaching of Antichrist in the previous verse. I don't think he's saying that anybody who goes to church, if they ultimately leave church, they never really were in it. That's just something you could throw at anybody.

Someone's in the church for two years or for 70 years, and they get discouraged, and they leave and you say, “Well, they were never sincere.” I don't believe that. I think some people are very sincere. Balaam was a prophet of God filled with God's Spirit. He was very sincere, but he gave into his jealousy and his greed and ended up losing his salvation because of it. Saul was chosen by God. He was filled with the Holy Spirit. To say that he wasn't sincere, God chose him and God filled him with His spirit, but he gave into pride and ultimately apostatized and took his own life.

There's a number of examples of people that were clearly sincere, they were in it with all their heart, but we get to make choices every day. They're just threatened because this undermines the teaching that once you're saved, you can't be lost, which I don't believe the Bible teaches.

Chad: You would say that this verse here is more limited in its application. It's just speaking about he has specific people in mind when he's talking about it?

Speaker 1: Yes. There's some people, and we do meet people frequently. They'll say, “Oh, yes, I want to follow Christ,” but their hearts’ never really in it. Jesus talks about the seed that's on the shallow ground, it never really takes root. That would be that category of people. Then there's the seed that does take root and it starts to grow, but it gets choked by the world. That's the other category of people. Yes, I do think there are people who their hearts aren't in it.

They may be just going with the emotion of the moment, but there are people who I-- You mentioned Josh Harris, and I think I'm not God, I don't know the heart, but it sure seemed to me like he was absolutely sincere, That just goes to show, it's like Paul said, "We must continue." Paul even said, "Lest I preach to others and I give up my faith." Paul said he was even at risk of losing his salvation if he gave up his faith. Clearly, Paul was called by God and saved but he knew he had to continue. He said, “Let’s not get cast away.”

Chad: All right. Well, thank you. I have many other questions that I'm going to call about, but this is just the one for today. [chuckles]

Jean: All right, we’ll look forward to hearing from you. We'll send you a free book on the subject about Can a Saved Man Be Lost.

Doug: That's right. We'll send it to anyone who wants to learn more about what does the Bible say about a person who makes a choice either to choose God or not to choose Him. We'll send you the book Can a Saved Man Choose to Be Lost. The number is 800-835-6747. Again, just after that book Can a Saved Man Choose to Be Lost. We'll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and asks.

Speaker 1: You're listening to Bible Answers Live. This broadcast is a previously recorded episode. If you'd like answers to your Bible-related questions on the air, please call us next Sunday between 7:00 PM and 8:00 PM, Pacific Time. Call us at 1-800, God Says. Find out what the critics are raving about. Top scholars and theologians from around the country come together to reveal the hidden history of the book of Revelation. With powerful reenactments and incredible visual effects, this 95-minute masterpiece brings to life the book of Revelation like never before. Revelation is no longer a mystery. Get your copy today. Visit iTunes or


Doug: Looks like Chike listening from California. Chike, welcome to the program.

Chike: Hey, I have a question about the revelation with the trumpet. I was reading it and I was trying to understand it. I don't know if it's events that have happened or events that are happening. The events themselves, they confuse me because it says the second Angel, when he sounded, a great mountain was fire was thrown into the sea, and there's a lot of thirds of everything dying. Is it in reference to events that have happened or events that are soon to come?

Doug: Here's something that an old evangelist told me that really helped me. Revelation is mainly a series of visions of sevens. You've got seven churches in the beginning, you have seven seals, you have seven trumpets. There are a number seven's, but there's some that cover historic periods. The seven churches cover the history of the church, from the time of John, the first coming of Christ to the second coming. The seven seals cover the political history of the church from the first coming of Christ to the second coming. The seven trumpets cover a military history from the first coming to the second coming. Which means most of it is in the past, but not all. What do we have that goes through the seven trumpets?

Jean: I don't know if we have a specific book on the subject, but I think our study guide series that we mentioned a little earlier-

Doug: Oh, that'd be great.

Jean: -does deal with some of these prophetic themes that we find in the book of Revelation. We'll be happy to send this to anyone who calls and asks wanting to learn more about these various beasts and symbols in Revelation.

Doug: A quick answer, Chike, is that the seven trumpets, we believe, are historic, and many of them are in the past, like which trumpet is Islam, the rise of Islam, I forget.

Jean: Yes, you've got the fifth and the sixth trumpet that describes the rise of Islam, and then the expansion of Islam under the Ottoman Empire. Then you have the starting of the seventh trumpet with a great religious awakening that occurred in the early 1800s and built up into all of the missionary activity that we see the translating of the Bible into different languages. Also introducing a special time of judgment just prior to the close of probation. You read about that in Chapter eight, nine, and then you'll find the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11.

Doug: You would really enjoy the Bible prophecy series we can send you. It's free. We'll send it. We just give this stuff away and trust by faith folks will help us keep doing it.

Jean: All right. Again, if you'd like to receive or enroll in our free, Amazing Facts, study guide series, just call the number 800-835-6747, ask for study guide or the Bible school program and they'll tell you how you can enroll for free, and we'll be happy to send you out these wonderful lessons dealing with bible prophecy, and a number of other important biblical subjects and themes. Carrie's listening from Canada. Carrie, welcome to the program.

Carrie: Hi.

Doug: Hi.

Carrie: I just had a question. I've seen an article going around on the internet saying that there's been a mistake in translations of the Bible with regard to the word homosexuality. I know this is a sensitive topic, but I'm guessing-- I'm a little bit worried about it because I don't want to spread error. My question is that that translation people are talking about was saying that the word homosexuality actually refers to sex with young boys. Christians are saying that in fact, the Bible actually says nothing about homosexuality at all, and it's not even mentioned in the Bible. I'm just curious what you guys think of that or if that's true.

Doug: That's categorically not true. The people saying that are hoping folks won't read the Bible for themselves, because it's mentioned extremely specifically many times. You not only have the incidents in Sodom and Gomorrah with Lot. You can look, for instance, in 1st Corinthians 6:9, “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God,” and you might look up the one in Romans 1 there. “Do you not know the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't be deceived neither fornicators,” that's talking about heterosexual adultery, “nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuality, nor Sodomites will inherit the Kingdom of God. He says, “But such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified.” Paul is saying, yes, homosexuals like adulterers and thieves and everyone else can be saved, but they must repent of their sins. They’re saying, “Well, God made us this way.” I respectfully disagree. I don't think homosexuality is something that you are.

I think it's something you choose, and it might be the result of environmental things when you're very young that you may not even fully understand, but a heterosexual, if they're not married, they need to be pure. They can't say, “Well, God made me desire the opposite sex, and so I'm not responsible for my behavior.” God calls everyone to be pure. People that are married are called to be faithful to their spouses. The stuff going around on the internet is, yes, they-- What's the verse in Romans?

Jean: Romans 1:26 makes it pretty clear. It says, “For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions for even their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. Likewise, also men leaving the natural use of woman burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of the error which was due.”

Doug: Notice, it doesn't say men with boys. It says men with men.

Carrie: Yes, that's what I thought too. It’s just that when you read this article, they just go back into this original German translation, and they say that it's been translated wrong. I'm not a theology major. Some of my Christian friends are sharing it, and I worry that that's just like us saying, “Well, it’s okay.”

Doug: Well, you know what happens is people have empathy for folks that are struggling with these tendencies. I do too, and so they do their best to do all these theological gymnastics to try to make the Bible say something than what it says, and it's really tragic.

Carrie: -but ultimately, we're putting people's souls at risk, I feel like, when we do that.

Doug: We are. Yes, we're not helping them out because if-- Whenever you tell anybody that your sin is okay, it's like a doctor telling somebody with skin cancer they've got poison ivy. You're not helping them. You’ve got to be honest with people in order for them to find healing. The Bible's clear, not only here, Carrie, but there are, I think it's probably 20 verses you can go to, if I remember, that are very explicit about homosexuality. Sometimes it's called being effeminate. The sodomites has a lot of words for it, but God is very clear. Jesus said, “Did he not make the male and female.” Consistently through the Bible, marriage is only between a man and a woman. Thank you for your call.

Jean: Next caller that we have, caller from New York, Kesha or Cesha, welcome to the program.

Kesha: Hi. How are you guys doing?

Jean: Very good. Thanks for calling.

Kesha: Okay. I'm calling to find out, will a person be lost if they don't believe in Jesus Christ?

Jean: Well, nobody's going to be saved without the help of Jesus. Now, there will be some people in heaven that maybe didn't know the name of Jesus, but they lived up to the light that was given them maybe by God, Spirit and angels, but everyone who’s saved, no one’s saved by their good works or good deeds. We’re all saved by grace. There are some people who just trusted in the goodness of God that maybe didn't know who He was. They maybe lived before the time when Jesus died for our sins, but they lived up to all the light they had.

The Bible says that if we walk in the light, God gives us more light, and Jesus said, “If you did not see, you would have no sin, but now that you see, your sin remains.” In other words, to whom much is given, much is required. If we know about Christ and we know about the truth, He expects us to follow that. Some people, in their ignorance, they're living up to all the light they have. I think there'll be many God will save just by His mercy, but it's still because of Jesus' sacrifice they're saved. Now, does that make sense?

Kesha: Yes. Thank you so much.

Jean: Yes, and I think even the chapter we just read in Romans talks about even the barbarians who don't know about God but they follow what they know of God from nature. God looks upon them with favor. All right, we’re going to get to a couple-- Let me see, do another question before our break, maybe.

Doug: We've got Sam listening from Pittsburgh. Sam, welcome to the program.

Sam: Thank you. Thank you for taking my call.

Jean: Thank you, and what's on your mind, Sam?

Sam: Well, it's probably a pretty common question. I'm sure a lot of people have this on their minds, and quite frankly, it's probably the source of peace or stress for a lot of people. It’s about death and the afterlife, and how do you give people confidence of the afterlife? I know a lot of the Bible references, but it's still a source of stress for a lot of people in terms of, is there something after life, or isn't there, and where do we go after death?

Jean: That’s a great question, haven’t heard that question in a long time. I'm glad he asked, is probably a lot of people, like you say, they would love to know. First of all, there's a lot of examples in the Bible of a resurrections, of course, Christ being one of the most prominent examples. Jesus rose a man who had been dead for four days.

Elisha rose a boy from the dead, and similarly Elijah resurrected a boy who had died. You read in the book of Mark 9 that both Elijah and Moses who had been resurrected after this life appeared to Jesus in a glorified state, and so they had received their eternal bodies. You can read where at the resurrection of Christ that a number of graves around Jerusalem were opened, and the saints that slept in them were raised, and they ostensibly ascended to heaven with Jesus.

If you believe anything in the Bible, you need to believe all the promises where Jesus says, “I am the resurrection of life.” Whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life. That's, of course, John 3:16. This is the Good News. I look in the mirror and I see I'm marching towards the wrinkles and gray hair and the grave, and we all know King David put it this way.

He said, “I go the way of all the earth,” he told his son Solomon. Even a great man, like David said, “This is a natural order. We're going to get old and die. Job said, “Like a fully ripened sheaf of grain, and we're going to come to our graves.” You want to live a full life like Abraham, but you're going to die, and the body, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Is that the end? God says, “No, there's a resurrection. We've got a whole lesson we can give you on this for free or anyone else, Sam.

Doug: If you'd like to receive that study guide, we will be happy to send it to you. Just call and ask for the study guide called Ultimate Deliverance and we'll get it right out to you.

Jean: All right, friends, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back.


Speaker 1: Stay tuned. Bible Answers Live will return in a moment. Journey back through time to the center of the universe. Discover how a perfect angel transformed into Satan. The arch villain, the birth of evil, a rebellion in heaven, a [unintelligible 00:27:59] that moved to earth. Behold, the creation of a beautiful new planet, and the first humans witness the temptation in Eden. Discover God's amazing plan to save His children. This is a story that involves every life on earth, every life.

The cosmic conflict, if God is good, if God is all powerful. If God is love, then what went wrong? For life-changing Christian resources, visit, or call 1800-538-7275. Want to know God's plan for our world and solutions for your life's challenges, beautifully redesigned, amazing facts 27 Bible study guides provide encouraging Bible-based answers to questions on healthier relationships, when Jesus will return and much more.

Prefer to watch while you eat, our brand new prophecy encounters DVD series makes the perfect companion set. Order your study guides and DVDs today by visiting, or by calling 800-538-7275. Written by the hand of God and spoken with His voice, some words will never fade.


Speaker 1: Get Pastor Doug Batchelor’s 12-part sermon series on the 10 commandments by calling 800-538-7275, or visit


Speaker 1: Every Bible question you have answered moves you one step closer to the fullness of God's will for your life. What are you waiting for? Get the answers you need for a fuller, richer, more confident life. You’re listening to Bible Answers Live. This broadcast is a previously recorded episode. If you'd like answers to your Bible related questions on the air, please call us next Sunday between 7:00 PM and 8:00 PM Pacific Time. To receive any of the Bible resources mentioned in this evening's program, call 800-835-6747. Once again, that's 800-835-6747. Now, let's join Pastor Doug Batchelor for more Bible Answers Live.

Doug: We are back and welcome friends to Bible Answers Live. If you've tuned in along the way, this is a Bible Answer program where you get to call in with your Bible questions and it is a free phone call. I don't know why we say that anymore, or people haven't been charging toll for calls in a while, 800-463-7297, 800 God says, if you're in North America. You can also watch on Facebook by going to the Doug Batchelor Facebook page or the Amazing Facts Facebook page. We stream the humble happenings here in the studio. If you want to look in as well as listening, and I am Doug Batchelor.

Jean: My name is Jean Ross, and we've got a call from Ghana, Africa, Emmanuel, welcome to the program.

Emmanuel: Pastor Doug?

Doug: You are on. How are you doing?

Emmanuel: Yes, I'm being loose [unintelligible 00:31:19].

Doug: Your question tonight. I know we're going to have a little time delay because of the distance, so I'll let you ask your question.

Emmanuel: Yes, no problem yet. [unintelligible 00:31:28] I was reading Revelation 19:4 and I found some 24 elders around the throne of God. I'm asking, these 24 elders around the throne of God, were they redeemed out of the already created angelic beings. That's is my question.

Doug: All right, great question. We're going to just put you on hold because it makes the call a little quieter. Emmanuel is wondering in Revelation 19:4, the 24 elders. You also find them, is it Revelation four and five, it mentions them, and conventional wisdom, and Pastor Ross, and I agree on 99%. I think we agree on this.

God has leaders of unfallen worlds, and the number 24, you've got 12 leaders in the Old Testament, 12 leaders in the New Testament, the apostles. We believe that these represent may be leaders of unfallen worlds that are sometimes called the sons of God in the Book of Job. That's one theory that I think I ascribed to, and some think that they are the group that was redeemed or resurrected at the resurrection of Christ. What are your thoughts on that, Jean?

Jean: Yes, I agree Pastor Doug, I think you're right. We find a group spoken of in Job and refers to them as the sons of God. Satan comes claiming to be the representative of earth, and this is, of course, before Jesus came to the earth. It appears as though there is a group of representatives, all beings, created beings in the universe sometimes referred to as the elders.

Matter of fact, you can also read about the elders even in Isaiah, even before Christ came. Talks about, “The Lord shall reign before the elders gloriously.” A number of Bible scholars feel that these 24 elders could represent those other created beings. Those beings that Job talks about who never sinned, but they serve as-- Back in the Old Testament times, you had a King, and then you had a group known as the princes who made up the cabinet or the council for the King, and maybe the elders play a role of representing different parts of the creation.

Doug: Both David and Solomon in the arrangement for the worship, they had groups of 24, both among the priests and even in the army for service. By the way, that verse in Isaiah 24:23, “The Lord will reign before his elders gloriously.” I appreciate that Emmanuel. Thanks for calling from Ghana, Africa. I'd love to be there someday. I know the founder of Amazing Facts started a church there. They call it The Amazing Facts Church in Ghana. God bless you.

Jean: Next one that we have is Chris listening in Nebraska, I should say. I think the questions about Job. Hey Chris, welcome to the program.

Chris: Hi. How are you guys doing?

Doug: Good.

Chris: That's wonderful. It's a beautiful night tonight. My question is about the dinosaurs in Job. Specifically, he talks about the behemoth, and the commentary talks about hippopotamus. My question specifically talks about Job 40:17, where he has a Cedar-like tail. The second part of the question is I've been talking with quite a few people and they can't give me a good answer where on the timeline would Job be? Obviously, he's before the flood, because there's no dinosaurs, and he's after Adam and Eve, because they were the first. Now, I was wondering what your insight might be.

Doug: Well, first of all, I think we can pin down Job pretty clearly to the time of-- he was a descendant of Esau. He lived in the area of Edam. It does mention two of his friends in the chronology of Esau. Is it Ishmael? The timeline, people around that time were living almost 200 years, like Abraham lived 175 years, Isaac lived 180 years. When you look at the length of time Job lived, when you look at the names that are surrounding him, he probably lived after the flood. The bigger question is what is this Leviathan. I'm inclined to agree with you that it's not a hippopotamus. I think there may have been some other varia-

Chris: Well, the behemoth in 40 was-- Thinking more of a land creature. The little fire then I was thinking was more of a sea creature. I wasn't sure.

Doug: Yes. Well, you're right. The behemoth is what I'm talking about. I said Leviathan. Leviathan is completely different. You're right. The behemoth, I think, is not talking about a hippo. Hippo doesn't have a tail like a Cedar tree. Job may not be talking about an animal that was living when he was living. He may be referring back to ancestors that remember the giant reptiles before the flood whose bones-- right now, we see their bones all over the world, but they may have been even more obvious if you go back 4,000 years.

Jean: Yes, it would appear that this animal was fairly well-known, at least maybe not in person, but they had stories, and, of course, it was carried down from now onwards to some of the animals that were living before the flood. Talking about this big beast, behemoth that says he was the first, I suppose, 19 of Job 40, “He's the first of the ways of God.” Then it goes on to talk about how big he is, his tail, how strong it is. It says, “He likes to be in the Mosh area, apparently eats a vegetarian diet,” and a number of folks think this refers to some of the lodge at dinosaurs. We see the bones today.

Doug: Yes, maybe like the Brontosaurus or something huge. We don't know. It's one of the things I want to ask the Lord when we get to heaven, Chris. Appreciate your question on that.

Jean: All right, next caller that we have is Greg listening in North Carolina. Greg, welcome to the program.

Greg: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Jean: Your question?

Greg: My question is on Luke 2:35-37 where Christ says [unintelligible 00:37:30] and likewise, the script and he had no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. I’m thinking that's a spiritual connotation.

Doug: I think you're right, because the disciples misunderstood and they said, “Look, Lord, we have two swords.” That's verse 38, and Jesus said to them, “It's enough.” Now when Jesus said it's enough, the way we would translate that is enough of this, or forget about it. In other words, Christ was crossing the sea once with the disciples and he said to them, “Beware of the 11 of the Pharisees.”

Well, He’s speaking in spiritual terms. The disciples go, “Oh guys, hey, we forgot to bring our sandwiches,” and Jesus said, "Oh, you guys don't get it. I'm not talking about bread. I just multiplied the bread and fed 5,000 people. Why would I be talking about bread?" Here, He says, “He that has a garment, let him sell it and get a sword.” What Christ said, “I did not come to send peace but a sword.”

It's a spiritual sword, the sword of truth, because when Peter pulls out his sword to defend Jesus, Christ tells Peter, “Put your sword away. Those that live by the sword will die by the sword.” He wasn't telling him to fight the Roman army with two swords but it is interesting. They said two swords because he got the law and the prophets, the New and the Old Testament, the 10 commandments on two tables, so kind of interesting. It’s a spiritual answer, I believe.

Greg: That's what I thought. Thank you, Pastor.

Doug: Thanks so much. Appreciate your question.

Jean: We do have a book talking about the Bible, and we'll be happy to send us to anyone who asks. It's called The Ultimate Resource, all about the Bible, where the Bible came from and how we understand different translations and so on. If you'd like to receive it, all you'll have to do is call the number 800-835-6747. That is the resource phone line, and ask for the book called The Ultimate Resource. That number again is 800-835-6747.

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In six days, God created the heavens and the earth. For thousands of years, man has worshiped God on the seventh day of the week. Now, each week, millions of people worship on the first day. What happened? Why did God create a day of rest? Does it really matter what day we worship? Who's behind this great shift? Discover the truth behind God's law and how it was changed. Visit For life-changing Christian resources, visit, or call 1-800-538-7275.

Jean: We've got Jerry listening from Oregon. Jerry, welcome to the program.

Doug: Thank you. Good evening Pastor Doug and Jean.

Jean: Evening.

Jerry: As you know, most of Christianity justify worshipping on Sunday based upon their belief that Jesus rose on Sunday. Now, about three months ago, I called in and said I didn't know of any scripture that support this. Then Pastor Ross jumped in and said there is one, Mark 16:9, and this is what it says, "When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene out of whom he had driven seven demons."

Right before this scripture in the NIV, my Bible says the earliest manuscripts in some of the ancient witnesses do not have verses nine through 20. The one I just read was included in that. Then online, I've read that some people would question the comma placement here as the same thing which comes up when Jesus said, “[unintelligible 00:41:39], I say unto you today, though shall be with me in paradise.”

Doug: Jerry, let me jump in just to make sure I'm understanding your question. We need to be succinct. Are you wondering if Jesus rose on the first day?

Jerry: Yes, because the only scripture that’s brought to my attention is Mark 16. Now-

Doug: Let me give you another one, John 20:1, “Now, on the first day of the week, Mary went to the tomb early while it was still dark.” Then you can go to Luke 24.

Jerry: Pastor, but that's as he was seen on the first day.

Doug: You read in Mark that Mary Magdalene was the first one to him, and then you can also go now to Luke 24:1, “Now, on the first day of the week, very early in the morning,” and certain other women came with them. They came to the tomb. They're all saying the same thing that He rose the first day.

Jerry: No, they said they saw him on the first day. It didn't say that He rose on the first day.

Doug: When do you think He rose?

Jerry: Well I think that's questionable. I suspect He rose Saturday evening myself, but-

Doug: Now, when does a day begin biblically?

Jerry: Evening, six o'clock, probably.

Doug: Sunset, yes, so it begins at sunset. If He rose on what your calling Saturday night, it's still technically biblically, it's called the first day of the week, because the days begin and end-

Jerry: It would be Sunday on our calendar.

Speaker 1: First of all, I'm not agreeing. In other words, I don't think that we should change the Sabbath Day because Jesus rose on the first day any more than I think we should change it to Friday because he died on Friday. Nowhere does God say those [unintelligible 00:43:20] Last Supper was on Thursday. Nowhere does God say we did change the Sabbath because of these great events.

Jerry: I agree with you. My agenda is to give you some more ammunition, because I don't see other than this one scripture which is questionable that even rose on the first day, granted there's many that said He was seen on the first day.

Doug: It seems to indicate that this is all happening together, that He rises just before the women arise. He has not even yet ascended to heaven when He talks to Mary. I don't think he rose too early and just hung around the tomb waiting for something to happen. It seems to indicate early in the morning, there was an earthquake. It tells us that an angel tossed the stone aside.

The Roman soldiers were terrified and they fled. The women showed up. It's all happening in quick succession. I appreciate that you're trying to say, “Well, you can't really make Sunday the day of worship because He may not have risen by sunrise.” I do believe the Bible's clear He rose on the first day of the week. All right, next caller that we have is Grace listening in New York. Grace, welcome to the program.

Grace: Yes. Hi, pastors. Goodnight.

Doug: Evening, how are you?

Grace: I'm doing good. Thank you. I recently met some anti-Trinitarians who were trying to convince me that Jesus was set up, or He was brought forth. His father [unintelligible 00:44:49], and that he did not exist with his father from ever since the father existed.

Jean: They take you then to Proverbs 8?

Grace: Yes they took me to Proverbs 8. Yes, so I'm kind of stuck right there.

Doug: Let me read this for our listeners, okay, Grace? That’s Proverbs 8, I'll read verse 22. “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way before His works of old. I've been established from everlasting, from the beginning before there ever was an earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth.” Now, they're saying that this verse is talking about God the father bringing forth Jesus, the son. That can't be because the whole chapter is talking about wisdom, not Jesus. Go to the first verse of Proverbs 8. It says, “Does not wisdom cry out?” Well, does wisdom cry? That’s figurative, isn't it?

Understanding, “Lift up her voice.” I've never heard understanding scream. “She takes her stand on the top of a hill.” It goes back and forth. Speaking of wisdom as a man, understanding as a woman that she cries out by the gates. The whole chapter is talking about wisdom. Wisdom was at the very beginning with God, wisdom was brought forth. It's not talking about Jesus, because the Bible tells us, “All things that were made were made by Him,” Christ. If all things were made by Him, then how could He make Himself? See what I'm saying?

Grace: If all things were made by Him, how could he make Himself?

Speaker 1: Yes the Bible says, “God created all things through Christ.” Some of the people that don't like the Trinity truth, they say that, “Well, first God made Jesus and then Jesus made everything else.” It doesn't say, “Jesus made everything but himself.” It says, “Jesus made all things that were made.” Anything created was created by Him. Basically, they're saying that, “Well God didn't really create Jesus. He brought him forth.” Well, that's silly semantics. It's the same thing. If you bring something in from non-existence into existence, its creation. You can use the word brought forth but it's the same thing.

Grace: Okay. All right, thank you.

Doug: I've got a new book I just wrote on that. It started out with a short book and we expanded it, and it's talking about one God or three, and it’s the Trinity. We’ll send you a free copy. Anyone's struggling with this, I made it very easy to read, small book, goes through the Bible. After doing the book, my faith was really strengthened that God is composed of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you'd like to receive the book, the number to call is 800 835 6747, and again, just ask for the book on the Trinity called One God All Three, and we'll be happy to send it to anyone who calls and asks. We've got Carl listening from Illinois, Carl, welcome to the program.

Carl: Yes Pastor Ross and Pastor Batchelor. It’s good to hear from you guys.

Doug: Well, thank you. Good to hear from you, and your question tonight?

Carl: Yes. We'll try to make this as brief as I can. During this holiday season, people are trying to do things, and depict Jesus, and representing God in various theatrical and drama possessions. I'm wondering if there's anything in the Bible that will lend support that this is okay to do, maybe showing God talking with his son, exhibiting the love that He has for His son, and concerned about whether His son could fail in representing man.

Doug: Well, now, first, you're asking an important question, Carl. Is there ever an appropriate time for some dramatic recreation? You got to be careful because 90% more than that of what Hollywood and the media puts out in the world, they use that medium in an unhealthy way. You've got to stop, I think, before you say that you can never do any kind of a recreation, because when God told the Israelites to celebrate the Passover, He wanted them to relive the Passover. There were a couple of times when God called His prophets to do some strange things to illustrate a truth.

Everything from putting on a yoke and wearing it around or-- Sometimes they did some things to illustrate truths. Amazing Facts has put out, of course, we're not the criteria, but Amazing Facts has put out several recreation's that talk about what happened in biblical history. We don't actually have actors that are talking because that's when it starts to become unreal, but we just recreate the Passover and some of these events. Can that medium be used to accomplish good? Yes, but I think 90% of what professed Christians watch theatrically is probably not spiritually edifying. I think you got to be real careful. Does that make sense?

Carl: No, it makes a lot of sense, and we're trying to make sure-- My family and I, we just love you guys. We appreciate what you're doing, and so we're just trying to make sure that we don't create a situation that will cause our brothers to stumble. I'm just trying to make sure that we're following the right path.

Doug: Well, the Lord's going to bless you. If you lack wisdom, He promises. to give it, plus the Lord will guide you this holiday season. Anyway, thank you very much for your call, Carl. Appreciate it.

Jean: We've got Nathan listening from Collegedale, Tennessee, Nathan, welcome to the program.

Nathan: Good evening pastors. How are you all doing?

Doug: Good evening. I got a son named Nathan that lives in Collegedale, Tennessee. I thought you might be him, but I recognize a different voice here. [chuckles]

Nathan: [chuckles] No, it's not him, but I have had--I've run into him a couple of times down here.

Doug: All right, and your question?

Nathan: Hey, I've been presented with a question by a local pastor here, and he asked me, "Did the war in heaven start before creation or at the cross?"

Doug: It was before creation. Now, I'm giving you a quick answer, but something happened at the cross that sealed the doom of the devil, but the war in heaven goes back and predates our world. One reason that God made our world is because He was helping to repopulate the vacuum in heaven from the angels that had been evicted and Satan-- when Satan came down to try and tempt our world to follow him in his rebellion, obviously his rebellion had to happen first.

Nathan: Okay, okay-

Doug: Does that make sense?

Nathan: Yes, it makes complete sense to me, but he was just presenting me with a bunch of different writings from different people. He said that a certain war happened at the cross when Satan was trying to attack Jesus personally right there.

Doug: Yes, there was a war in the garden of Gethsemane. No question about it. There's a battle, but the war in heaven began before creation of our world.

Jean: Yes, if you look in Revelation 12, it's the sequence of events He talks about in verse seven, "There was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought with the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought.” Then it says in verse eight, "But they did not prevail nor was their place found for them in heaven anymore. so the great dragon was cast out.” Then when you get down to verse 12, it says "Rejoice therefore heavens and you that dwell in them, but woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for the devil has come down to you having great wrath."

Verse 13 says "Now, when the dragon saw that he'd been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman that had given birth to the male child." Some people wonder, “Well, it almost seems as though the devil is cast to the earth after Christ.” Well. at the cross when Jesus overcame the devil, in a special sense, Christ became the representative of the earth, and the devil was confined to this earth. No longer could he claim to be the representative.

He's bound to this earth. He doesn't travel throughout the vastness of God's creation, but before the cross, it appears as though Satan did to some degree, have the ability to travel. Job talks about the devil showing up at this meeting where the representatives [unintelligible 00:53:16].

Doug: Absolutely. Appreciate your call, Nathan. We have a CD you can watch for free online called Cosmic Conflict. If you just go to YouTube type in Amazing Facts: Cosmic Conflict, it talks about the sequence of the fall of Lucifer. I think you'll be blessed by that.

Jean: Next caller that we have is Charles listening from Florida. Charles, welcome to the program.

Charles: Yes. How are you doing today? God bless, happy Sunday. Question tonight is-- Okay, sorry, first time caller. My question tonight is I just recently gave my life to Christ within the last couple of weeks.

Doug: Amen.

Jean: Amen.

Charles: I'm looking to be baptized soon. It’s kind of Bible-based question, but it's kind not. I have a spouse, that I love very much, and she's not really a follower of Christ per se, you know what I mean? She really hasn't been. I'm not going to force her into believing. She chooses her own free will.

Doug: Right.

Charles: I have respect to that but-

Doug: You want to know what can you do to help reach her? Huh?

Charles: Yes.

Doug: Okay. Well, there’s a few things. First of all, here's a scripture for you that you want to share with her. It's Jeremiah 29:11-13, God says "I've got thoughts of good for you, a future and a hope, and you'll find me when you search for me with all your heart." Three things you can do that will help. You can be a good example, pray for her, and if she's open, share information. Three things, you can share information if she's open, pray for her, and then pray God will help you to be a joyful example. You can lead but you can't drive her. You can't force her. You just can try and lead by example. Those are the same three things anyone can do.

Jean: We do have a study guide talking about baptism, and you might want to call for that. Has a lot of good information. It's called Purity and Power, and we'll be happy to send that to you, Charles or anyone wanting to learn more about baptism, what the Bible says. The number is 800 835-6747. Ask for the study guide on the subject of baptism called Purity and Power.

Doug: Thank you, Charles. We don't mean to cut anyone short, but we're coming up on some of our closing announcements. Listening friends, please remember that if you're hearing this program, it's because people like you have been blessed, edified, and we don't get a government subsidy. Your taxes don't pay for this program. There's no denomination or company. It’s people like you that click at Amazing Facts and donate to keep us going. We sure appreciate it. You folks have a blessed and a happy Thanksgiving. The Lord be with you and we'll study His Word together again next week.

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