Price of Human Life

Date: 01/29/2012 
On October 13, 2011, the nation of Israel traded over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the release of one Israeli solider that Hamas militants had captured in 2006. Many believed this was the most lopsided prisoner exchange in history.
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Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. On October 13, 2011, the nation of Israel traded over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the release of one Israeli solider that Hamas militants had captured in 2006. Many believed this was the most lopsided prisoner exchange in history. So how much is a human life worth? Stay with us friends. We're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Batchelor: Welcome listening friends to Bible Answers Live. If you're tuning in for the first time, for the next hour we're going to be taking your Bible questions live regarding subjects of spiritual truth. If you'd like to call in, we have some lines open right now; and that number is 1-800-GOD SAYS. That's 1-800-463-7297.

I'll give it to you one more time. Got your pencil ready? To call in with your Bible questions, toll-free number, 1-800-463-7297 will bring you into the studio, but keep that pencil close at hand because we'll be giving you some websites, as well as another number with our free resources along the way in the program.

I should mention that periodically, we stream these programs, and tonight is one of those times. If you'd like to see what's going on here in the studio, you can join us at Bible Answers Live by going to, My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening listening friends, Pastor Doug. Let's begin the program with prayer. Father, once again, we thank You that we have this opportunity to study Your word. We do ask for Your leading and Your Spirit. We recognize the Bible is Your book, and we need Your guidance to correctly understand it. Be with those who are listening wherever they might be; and we pray for wisdom here in the studio. In Jesus' name, amen.

Pastor Batchelor: Amen!

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a remarkable swap, a thousand individuals for just one. What is the price of a human life?

Pastor Batchelor: You know, whenever someone says what is it worth, the answer is often it's worth whatever someone paid for it. And when some wealthy businessmen get their children kidnapped and then they ask for this fabulous ransom, parents and grandparents have paid millions to get their children or their grandchildren back, because it's worth everything to them. How do we know what a soul is worth? Well it's worth what someone will pay for it

Pastor Jëan Ross: Um-hm

Pastor Batchelor: What did God pay that we might be saved? And He gave His own life. The cost of our salvation was the highest price that could ever be paid for anything. Just a little amazing fact I'm going to insert in this other amazing fact. Astronomers tell us there are planets out there in the cosmos that are made of one entire diamond.

It's just carbon that has been compressed; and so, can you imagine a diamond the size of the moon? Well God, that owns a diamond the size of the moon, gave something more valuable than that diamond. He gave His Son that we might be saved. So friends, anyone listening out there, if you are wondering if your life is worth anything, it's worth at least more than a diamond as big as the moon. It's worth the life of the One who made that, God's own Son, Jesus.

We'd like you to learn more about how much He loves you. We have a free offer that talks about your value.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We do! It's a book we'd like to send to you. All you have to do is call our resource line. The book is entitled, The High Cost of the Cross. The High Cost of the Cross. The number is, 1-800-835-6747. That's 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for the book, The High Cost of the Cross, and we'll be happy to send that out to you.

Of course Pastor Doug, when you talk about this subject, a verse of Scripture that comes to mind is probably the one that most of our listeners have heard before, John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." That sums up what God paid for our salvation, the life of His very Son.

Pastor Batchelor: Absolutely. Well, are we ready for the phone calls?

Pastor Jëan Ross: First caller is Mike and he's calling from British Columbia. And uh, let me see if we can get him here on the line [telephone line technical difficulties]. We seem to have technical challenges here. It looks like none of my lines are working here at the moment.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, Mike has a question on--well let's try that again.... Friends, stand by. This doesn't usually happen but--

Pastor Jëan Ross: We're going to get somebody in here to kind of help us with this line; but in the meantime, it looks as though Mike's question is related to how do you let your troubles go?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, your troubles can't always disappear just by your saying, "I'm going to pretend they don't exist." There is a promise in the Bible in 1st Peter chapter 5, verse 7. It says, "Casting all of your cares upon him; for he cares for you." If we believe that God cares for us, we can mentally just cast all of our cares upon Him knowing that.

And one way to do that--it's not just going through the visualization of throwing everything on the Lord's shoulders--but it's realizing that you don't bear any burden alone. Jesus said that

when we come to Him, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light; and that we can surrender things into His care and He will watch over us.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The book we mentioned at the beginning of the program, Pastor Doug, The High Cost of the Cross, really deals with that subject of how valuable a person is and how can we cast all of our cares upon Christ. And again, if you'd like to receive that free offer, the number to call is 1-800-835-6747, 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for the book, The High Cost of the Cross.

Pastor Doug, we're still trying to get our phone lines connected here. We've still got a little technical challenge, we'll keep working on it. So we're going to move on. We have Theo who is calling from San Francisco; and by the way, if you ask a question, you're holding on, we'll try and get to it if our phone lines will pick it up. We're still waiting for that to happen. But in the meantime, Theo is asking Matthew chapter 5, verse 48, is it possible to be perfect like Jesus?

Pastor Batchelor: I don't know about you friends, but when I first read that verse, Matthew 5, verse 48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" I thought, "Who can be perfect as God?"

You know, it helped me, when I read that same verse in Luke 6:36. There Jesus said, "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." So when you read in Matthew chapter 5, verse 48, He says this right on the heels of, "If you only love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the publicans do the same thing?"

So He's talking about our relationships. God wants us to have perfect love and perfect mercy. My definition of having Christian perfection is getting to the place where you love the Lord so much that you'd rather die than deliberately hurt Him.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Mm, um-hm

Pastor Batchelor: I don't know how I could ever have love like God has, but I think if you've got the mind of Christ, if you've got the love of God in your heart, that's as close as we can come, to love the Lord so much that we would rather die than hurt Him; and to love our neighbor so much. Jesus said no greater love has a man, in that he would lay down his life for his friend; and to have that kind of love would be the way to do it. So, do we have another question lined up here?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright, let's see. If we go to line number one and we'll see if we have a caller on. You're on Bible Answers Live. Let's try number four. Theo. Theo, welcome to the program. Theo from San Francisco.

Theo: Yes!

Pastor Jëan Ross: Oh good, it looks like we fixed our phone problem. Theo, you're on the air. What is your question this evening?

Theo: Yes, that was my question that Doug just answered, about being perfect. So perfection, there's no way we can be perfect. But what he was talking about, if we have the love of Christ, that's as perfect as we can be.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, I know that Daniel is going to be in heaven. I expect to see Elijah there, and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Whatever kind of relationship they had with the Lord is what we need to have. And you look at the courage of Elijah; you look at the dedication of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah--they're the same people as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego--and you look at Daniel; and we can have that experience. Where they're spirit-filled, where they would rather die than sin, that's Christian perfection.

If someone is thinking that it means we turn into, like, some kind of form of stainless steel, sterile robots, we'll always be tempted in this life because Jesus was tempted. Temptation is not the same thing as sin; but can we have victory over temptation? And the answer is yes, absolutely. We can have victory. We can live a new kind of life.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Absolutely. That's the hope. We press towards the mark.

Pastor Batchelor: Um-hmm

Pastor Jëan Ross: Hope that helps, Theo. Thanks for your call. Our next caller is Enoch, and he's calling from Orlando, Florida. Enoch, welcome to the program.

Enoch: Hey thanks for taking my call. I was going to ask, when Lucifer and all those angels fell from heaven, did any of them repent and turn back to God?

Pastor Batchelor: Well everyone wonders that, how long did this rebellion go on before the fallen angels reached the point of no return. There's no record in the Bible and that's what we need to stick to. There's no record in the Bible of some angels that almost rebelled with Lucifer, and then changed their mind.

But I expect, if we've all got guardian angels, and they are pushing seven billion people on the planet right now, and if some of those angels went through a period of time of listening to Lucifer campaign against God, I would think that some of them almost followed him. And probably some of Lucifer's angels almost changed their minds and went back to God.

So there was probably a period where the angels were making difficult decisions; but there's no record of an individual. Once the devil and his angels broke into all out war and they were cast out of heaven, I think the line was drawn in the sand at that point, and there's no changing teams.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We don't know the exact number, but the Bible does suggest a certain group that did rebel and joined Satan. Revelation chapter 12, and we're reading verse 3. It says: "And another sign appeared in heaven; behold a great, fiery, red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon its head."

And then verse 4 says, "And his tail drew a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth." In Revelation chapter 1, the Bible tells us that stars represent angels; and this fiery, red dragon is none other than Satan himself. So it would appear that when this war broke out in heaven that Satan was able to deceive a third of the stars, a third of the angels, to join his rebellion against God.

Pastor Batchelor: That's right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The good news is, God has two-thirds that stayed loyal.

Pastor Batchelor: They're with us; and it seems like they're mightier, just as good, better than evil.

Pastor Jëan Ross: They are, they are.

Pastor Batchelor: Good question, appreciate that Enoch.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We're going to go to our next caller, which is line number seven. Rick is calling from Michigan. Rick, welcome to the program.

Rick: Good evening, how are you doing?

Pastor Batchelor: Doing well.

Rick: Yes. I would like to know what did Enoch know that God would tell him come on and go with me?

Pastor Batchelor: Well our last caller was Enoch.

Rick: I know

Pastor Batchelor: We should have asked him before he hung up (laughs)

Rick: (Laughs) Yes we should have.

Pastor Batchelor: But I know you're talking about the Bible Enoch.

Rick: Yes I'm talking about the Bible.

Pastor Batchelor: So, what did Enoch know in order to go to heaven? You mean, what did he know that we don't know?

Rick: Yeah, did he know something that we don't know, for God to just say come on and go with me?

Pastor Batchelor: Well I can tell you, he knows stuff that we don't know right now, that's for sure.

Rick: Yeah

Pastor Batchelor: Well, it tells us he walked with God.

Rick: Yes

Pastor Batchelor: The Bible says in the New Testament Enoch was a preacher of righteousness. And then I believe that it tells us that he prophesied the return of Christ. It said "The Lord--"

Pastor Jëan Ross: "The Lord shall come with ten thousand of His saints," in Jude.

Pastor Batchelor: Um-hmm. So he was someone that was excited about the advent, or the return, of the Lord; and he had a relationship. The Bible says Noah walked with God; and Enoch, he walked with God before Noah even.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know it's interesting, when you look in Scripture, there are certain individuals that were translated to heaven without seeing death; of course, Enoch, and then you have Elijah.

Rick: Um-hm

Pastor Jëan Ross: Now, Elijah sort of represents a group of people; he represents those who will be alive when Jesus comes the second time and they're taken to heaven without seeing death. We know Moses died, but then he was resurrected and taken to heaven; and he represents the resurrected saints when Jesus comes.

But when it comes to Enoch, it seems as though he had such a close walk with God, that one day God said, "You know what? I'm not going to wait for the resurrection. I'm just going to bring Enoch home now," as if God wanted Enoch to be with Him and witness the whole plan of redemption play out over the past five thousand years. So, it kind of shows us that Enoch had a special place in the heart of God.

Pastor Batchelor: And I think it's also in Jude where it says, "Enoch, the seventh from Adam...."

Pastor Jëan Ross: Um-hm

Pastor Batchelor: And you know, the numbers mean something [cross talk]. It's that seventh generation that goes up--

Pastor Jëan Ross: That's right.

Pastor Batchelor: --and it's just before that seventh millennium we believe the Lord is going to come, and the saints are resurrected.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And one more thought on that. The people living before the flood, they lived for long ages and then they died. Enoch was translated, giving hope, that if people endured and were faithful, they also would, one day, be with God in heaven.

Pastor Batchelor: That's right.

Rick: Thank you so much gentlemen. I've always wondered about that. I love that story.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, well we're hoping we're alive and remain when the Lord comes,

Pastor Jëan Ross: That's right.

Pastor Batchelor: and we won't have to taste death, just like Enoch.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Robert and he is calling from New York. Robert, welcome to the program.

Robert: Hi, good evening Pastors. How are you doing?

Pastor Batchelor and Pastor Jëan Ross: Doing well.

Robert: Okay. My question is, is it okay for the treasury staff of the church to process the tithes and offerings collected during the Sabbath hours, and also, at the same time, take it to the bank and place it in the night deposit?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, I don't know that I would go that far in business. Obviously, if any church takes up an offering--and typically, they take up offerings on the Sabbath--then they need to secure it.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: But most churches have a method for doing that without making a trip to the bank. Many churches have a safe.

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Batchelor: Or there's a designated person, usually a couple of people, that are given a great deal of trust and a bank bag. But usually, most churches I'm acquainted with, they wait until the new week begins before they actually go and do the business of making a deposit.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: There's a certain amount of counting that has to take place when the money comes in.

Robert: Absolutely, especially if you have a membership with like, say, over 300 people.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Um-hum

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah. That could translate into a lot of work. My wife is actually one of the people at our church that helps count once a week. They always go in on Monday and they do it. But yeah, it takes hours.

Pastor Jëan Ross: It takes a lot of work.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah.

Robert: And because of safety reasons, we don't really want to leave the money in the church overnight as well.

Pastor Batchelor: Well, like I said, some churches have a safe or they've got a secure mechanism for that. But, you want to do something that's responsible.

Robert: Absolutely.

Pastor Batchelor: That's what I understand as what has typically happened. I don't know, maybe Robert would enjoy our lesson on In God We Trust. Although it doesn't address that specifically, it talks about Christian finances.

Pastor Jëan Ross: There are probably a lot of people wondering about Christian finance and offering and tithe. We have a study guide that talks about that. It's entitled, In God We Trust. And if you'd call our resource line, which is 1-800-835-6747, ask for the study guide, In God We Trust. The number again is, 1-800-835-6747. We're going to go to our next caller. Ron is calling from Washington, listening on the Internet. Ron, you're on the air.

Ron: Hey good afternoon guys. It's a pleasure to talk to you.

Pastor Batchelor: Likewise.

Ron: Well my question for you, Doug, is from Concrete, Washington; and my fiancée and I are doing a study together. She's reading from the NIV and I'm reading from the King James Version. We came across that Scripture, Exodus 4:24. My question is, who is he referring to, and if it is Moses, why would he want to kill Moses at this particular time?

Pastor Batchelor: This is a difficult verse. Let me read it for our friends that are listening. Exodus 4:24, "And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him." Well it is the Lord. When it says, "sought to kill him," obviously God can kill whoever He wants. It's not like you can hide from Him.

You can read in the Bible where it says an angel with a drawn sword met Balaam on his way, and the angel said, "You know, if it wasn't for the donkey, I would have slain you." Well, it's a figure of speech. So, obviously, the Lord could have done that; but it means He was about to execute judgment. And the reason being, Moses is getting ready to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. He needs to be an example.

God had given the covenant of circumcision to Abraham. Moses had not circumcised his own boys, or at least, one of them. And so, there may have been a dispute between he and his wife, Zipporah, about whether or not she thought maybe this was barbaric; and he was giving into his wife on this when he was supposed to be priest of his family.

And finally she relented, and Moses said, "Look, we need to do this. How am I going to be an example?" So the boy was circumcised then and there. But evidently, God had been talking to Moses about this, and impressing Moses, "Look, if you're going to lead My people, you need to be consistent in your own family." And I think that's what was happening there.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, when you look at the phrase, it says, "the LORD sought to kill him," I think a better translation might be, "the LORD appeared in a threatening way" (laughs), perhaps with a sword drawn out and standing there, appearing as though He's about to destroy Moses. But if God really wanted to destroy Moses, He would have destroyed Moses.

Pastor Batchelor: Yup.

Ron: Yeah, and that's my understanding of that; because I just couldn't understand why He would give him the equipment and give him all the stuff he needed to go do, and tell him what to do, then all of a sudden in the next Scripture He's ready to kill him. So I was confused because like I said, in the NIV, it says, "Moses" but in the King James Version, it says, "him." So I was wondering who "him" was. It is Moses.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, believe so. You know, Moses was reluctant. He was a very meek man, and probably when his wife resisted the covenant of circumcision, he kind of gave in to her. And the Lord said, "Look, you've got to stand up, because you're going to be leading these people. You've got to be an example."

Ron: Well I thank you guys for that insight on that. That is the most perplexing Scripture I ever came across, so I appreciate it very much you guys. God bless you, and you guys have an awesome night.

Pastor Batchelor: Thank you, and God bless. Appreciate your call.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Jason, and he is listening in San Diego, listening on Sirius XM Radio. Jason, welcome to the program.

Jason: Hey, how's it going guys?

Pastor Batchelor and Pastor Jëan Ross: Doing well.

Jason: Oh okay, good. My question was, I was reading about the coming of the Son of man. It talks about how those days are, the tribulation; and that was uh, let me see, Matthew 24:29?

Pastor Batchelor: Uh-huh

Jason: And then it goes down to Matthew, same one, 24:36; and then it talks about there being marriage and things going on, you know, like natural things. So, because personally, I believe that these times that we're living in now, I think we're living in end times. So I'm trying to study about things to look for in these times now, you know, and just study the Bible itself. So maybe you could help me with that?

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, absolutely. Of course, in Matthew 24:36, it says, "no man knows the day and the hour of the Lord's coming;" but Jesus tells us when you see these things begin to come to pass, know that it is near. So, while we may not be able to mark our calendar and say, "This is when the Lord is coming"--

Jason: Right.

Pastor Batchelor: --we all know there are pastors that have done that, in spite of Jesus several times saying don't do that. He wants us not to just pick a date and be ready for a date, He wants us to live a life of expectancy.

But there are signs for the world. It says, "As it was in the days before the flood," meaning the flood of Noah, "they were eating and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage"--well right there, eating and drinking--did you know that National Geographic reports this is the first time in the history of the world, or at least recorded history, that there are more over-nourished people in the world than under-nourished?

Jason: Yeah

Pastor Batchelor: And that's pretty scary, when you think about it. But then it says, "marrying, and giving in marriage," it's talking about marriage, and then surrendering marriage, or divorce; and that's epidemic in today, "until the day that Noah entered the ark." And they were preoccupied with building, it says, I believe in Luke; eating, and drinking, and building. So they're preoccupied with the cares of this life.

Jason: Okay

Pastor Batchelor: Just their vision is all down in the world. And then, of course, you can look, not only in Matthew, but you can look in Daniel chapter 12. It says men will run to and fro, knowledge will be increased. For the last 50 years, technology and knowledge of man has increased more than in all of recorded history.

Jason: Right

And Jesus said, "Except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved." You know, man has the capacity now to destroy himself; and he is, little by little, destroying the environment. Pastor Ross, is that Revelation 16, where it says, "God will destroy those that destroy the earth"?

Pastor Jëan Ross: I believe so.

Pastor Batchelor: So there has been no other time in history when man could destroy the earth. You go back 100 years ago, and it didn't matter if you had a million cannon balls, you weren't going to destroy the earth with your swords and your cannons; but man definitely has the ability now.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That's Revelation 11, verse 18.

Pastor Batchelor: 11:18, thank you.

Jason: Oh okay, yeah, because I just thought it would be a combination of tribulation in those days; and the marrying and giving in marriage; it's all a combination of all those?

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, it's the confluence of several things that happens. Jesus talks about earthquakes in different places. In Luke, it says, "the sea and the waves roaring," and we have that happening now as well. Matter of fact, we have a study guide we'll send you that talks about signs of the second coming. The very things we're telling you are listed in this lesson.

Pastor Jëan Ross: It's called, The Ultimate Deliverance, and if you'd call, Jason, our resource line, it's 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, The Ultimate Deliverance, talking about the second coming of Jesus. We also have a book dealing with the subject. We can send it to you as well. The book is entitled, Anything But Secret. Anything But Secret. The number is 1-800-835-6747. We're going to try to get one more call in before the break. We're going to go to Aaron who is listening in Sacramento. Aaron, you're on the air.

Aaron: Hi, kind of interesting to the (unintelligible) leading question from the last question. I understand the whole plant-based diet from the Bible and everything, but is it just a personal conviction whether you're to have cheat days, or off days, on eating just whatever you want, and then just go back to it? Or, I don't know, I was just kind of curious if there's any Biblical principle?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, there is a Biblical principle. The ideal diet is the diet that God gave man in the beginning, which is a vegetarian diet. Under that diet, men were living hundreds of years. When all the vegetation was destroyed during the time of the flood, they weren't just eating meat during a sacrifice. They used to eat it at sacrifice, but then it became a regular part of their daily diet.

The lifespan shortened radically at that point. And then we know in heaven, where there's no more death, that would include there's no more death of cows and chickens, so we're not going to be slaughtering and butchering animals and eating them. So God's perfect, originally eternal plan is for all of His creatures to be living off the vegetable kingdom.

And it's a fact now, I just read it again today, I think it was MSNBC did something in their health section of their Internet report about eleven things you can do to lengthen your life. And several of the prominent things were, not only exercise, but a vegetarian diet. So the fewer animal products in a person's diet--you don't get cholesterol from peanuts--you get it from animal products; and we know that that leads to a spectrum of problems.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We do have a study guide dealing with Bible principles for health. It's called, God's Free Health Plan. And Aaron, you might have read this before, or anyone listening, you can call, and we'll be happy to send that to you. It's 1-800-835-6747. 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, God's Free Health Plan.

Pastor Batchelor: Yup, a lot of wonderful information there, Biblical principles, how you can feel better, live longer, a more abundant life. Friends, you're listening to Bible Answers Live.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, we'd like to just mention an exciting website that we have, called It's a website we've had for awhile, but it has just been recently redesigned and updated,

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, if you go there, you're going to find Bible studies on hundreds of different subjects. If someone goes through that Bible study series, either the Amazing Facts study guides, or the Storacles of Prophecy, you're going to just find the foundation for your Christian faith is going to be rock-solid.

You'll know how to give an answer to anyone who asks the reason for the hope that's in you with meekness and fear. So just go to And we're going to take a break, and be back.


Pastor Batchelor: We back friends, and you are with Bible Answers Live. If anyone has joined us somewhere along the way, this is a live, international, interactive Bible study. And it's interactive because we're inviting you to participate. It's a free phone call.

If you'd like to call in with your Bible question, and I see a couple of lines still open, pick up the phone now. That number is 463-7297. I left off the 800. 1-800-463-7297. If you like using the letters on your phone instead of the numbers, that's 1-800-GOD SAYS. 1-800-GOD SAYS. 1-800-463-7297 brings you into the studio. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Pastor Doug, we're going to go straight to the phone lines. We have Steven who is listening from Montana. Steven, welcome to the program.

Steven: Thank you. My question is, how are the four horsemen in Revelation represented?

Pastor Batchelor: Are you wondering, like, who are the four horsemen in Revelation?

Steven: Yeah. What does it represent though, because I'm trying to put it in today's realm, you know.

Pastor Batchelor: Alright. Well, there are three major prophecies of Revelation that deal with seven. The book of Revelation starts with the seven churches that deals with the religious history of the church from the first coming to the second coming of Jesus.

Revelation begins by saying, "the time is at hand." So it starts with the vision and it goes on to the second coming. Then you've got the vision of the seven seals; then you've got the seven plagues. I guess you've got the seven trumpets too.

So the seven seals, the first four of the seven seals, are the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They represent four political ages the church went through, beginning with the coming of Christ and that white horse, when the church had that first love, and they went forth going to conquer; and they were victorious, spirit-filled. Then you see a transition in the horses. It then goes to the persecution, the red, and the black; and ultimately the pale, or the dead, gray horse.

Pastor Jëan Ross: If you want some rough time frame for that, the white horse represents the Gospel going forth in the first century; so from the time of Christ til about 100 A.D. Then you have a time of severe persecution that came against the church, symbolized by the red horse; and that would be from about 100 to about 313 A.D., when Christianity is legalized.

But then after that, there is a compromising of truth and a number of pagan ideas and practices found their way into the Christian church. That's represented by the black horse; and then that leads into the dark ages, the symbol of the pale horse. So these different horsemen represent different phases of Christian history. Like the seven churches, they also represent different phases of Christian history.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, and you'll even find a parallel for that in Ezekiel. You can also find the four horses first appear there. I think it's out of the 404 verses in Revelation, 278 are almost word-for-word somewhere else in the Old Testament. I hope that helps a little bit Steven, and if you're able to get on the Internet, you would appreciate the Bible study guides that we're offering. You can go to that we mentioned earlier. We have studies that deal with prophecy right there.

Another website Steven, if you're still there, that deals with this is the website, which actually has studies on Revelation, Hey friends that are listening, I forgot to mention at the break we're also streaming today on the Internet. If you'd like to tune in and tell us what you think, it's, and you could listen and watch for whatever that's worth.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Bob and he is calling from the Virgin Islands. Bob, welcome to the program.

Bob: Good night gentlemen. How are you doing?

Pastor Batchelor: Good evening, and your question?

Bob: It's nice to call you from across the globe. Yes, I have two quick questions, important. I'm trying to see 1st John 3 and 4. Can you read that for me?

Pastor Batchelor: 1st John 3, and you want verse 4?

Bob: Verse 4.

Pastor Batchelor: Alright. "Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Bob: Okay. My point is--did Adam, because I know the law was by Moses when he was on Mount Sinai, but Adam was the beginning. Where was the last function, where can we say the law was placed; because Adam could not sin when there was no law?

Pastor Batchelor: Well then, that answers the question right there. The law existed before Moses. And proof for that is, God told Abraham, "Abraham has kept My commandments, my laws, and my judgments." Is that Genesis 25? I forget. So if God says that He had laws, and He tells Abraham that before Moses got the Ten Commandments, then God had law all the way back.

If Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife; if Cain knew that it was a sin to murder his brother, that's getting pretty close to Adam's time, they knew what sin was. But before Moses came along, that law was written in their hearts.

You see, love is the fulfilling of the law. In other words, the Ten Commandments are summarized in loving God and loving your neighbor; and they knew that. It was just pre-programmed. It's like you buy a computer from the factory. Some software comes on the computer. Adam and man were created with the law in their heart. But things had gotten so bad by the time of Moses, He had to write it down.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The verse you referred to is Genesis chapter 26, verse 5, where it says Abraham obeys God's voice and keeps His commandments. Also, if you think about Eve standing by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and she took of the fruit, you think of the commandments that were broken in doing that. First of all, she coveted the fruit. It was not her's. Secondly, she took the fruit that was not her's.

Pastor Batchelor: Stealing.

Pastor Jëan Ross: She stole. Then she gave it to her husband, this poisonous fruit. I guess you could say she's guilty of bringing death. So when you look at the violation of the Ten Commandments, you can see the principles right back at the time of Adam, all the way through.

Pastor Batchelor: She disobeyed her Father too.

Bob: Pastor,

Pastor Jëan Ross: That's right.

Bob: Pastor, let me just ask this other quick one now, because I'm calling from all the way on the other side of the world.

Pastor Batchelor: Okay, we'll give you two for the price of one.

Bob: Because as a faith believer, I believe in the Bible; and I believe when we go outside the Bible, you're going to get in trouble. Sometime you reason with people who do not reason with the Bible. Scientists said they have found rocks and stuff that are millions of years old. I believe that the Bible, from Adam to now, is over 6,000 years. Can we support that from the Bible?

Pastor Batchelor: Well I believe we can support it from the Bible, and I think we can support it from science as well. For one thing, the method that they use for dating rocks is a very dubious method. And it's hard to prove because, scientifically, the way you would prove something is you would date your rock at four million years; and then you'd find a rock that you knew was four million years old, because someone was there four million years ago.

We have no way to substantiate that the aging technique they're using is consistent with the same environment that existed for the same period of time; because they don't know if the environment was the same, and the radiation hidden in the earth was the same. And some rocks that they've dated millions of years ago, a volcano will put out new lava, and 20 years later they'll date it, and it will date millions of years old, even though it was newly-formed rock.

So I've read into the rock dating method, and it is a very suspicious method; and there's a lot of faith mixed into that. So I believe we can go by the Bible.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, we've got a book dealing with the subject called, How Evolution Flunked the Science Test. And if you go to the website, Bob, you can actually read it online for free, How Evolution Flunked the Science Test. I guess it deals with some of these very issues.

Pastor Batchelor: Yeah, one more thought on that Bob, if you're still listening, a lot of the dating methods that are used, we have to ask our self a question. When God made the first trees in the garden of Eden, did they have tree rings? And if they were made with rings inherent in them, was Adam created a baby? Or was he created 30 years old? Or whatever it is, the perfect age, whatever that is. Must be 54, I'm not sure.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (laughs)

But, if they were created with some built-in age, then God can speak rocks into existence with built-in age. He can speak stars into existence with light already en route. And so it's nothing for the Lord. So this whole thing that we throw out the Bible because scientists have dated something, well, you know, things could have been created 6,000 years ago with an element of built-in age, just like Adam and the other creatures.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Edward and he's calling from Los Angeles. Edward, welcome to the program.

Edward: Hi guys. By the way, on the last call upon that immediate point there, you can say the same thing. You could say that the universe was just created 30 minutes ago and we didn't realize it. And so, that strikes me as a--

Pastor Batchelor: [laughs, cross talk] But I've been alive for more than 30 minutes, so if I have any awareness at all, I know that's not true. But anyway, go on with your question.

Edward: You could have been created with that belief. But anyway, listen (loud, excessive rambling)

Pastor Batchelor: Could have been. This whole conversation could be a figment of my imagination for that matter.

Edward: I want to get--I want to get to the bottom of this, this stuff, perfection of Christ thing. I was really struck by what you said about Moses earlier, not just now, but several calls ago. You described him as meek; and then it dawned on me, no wonder the 1956 version of the Ten Commandments was so lame. Heston was terribly miscast. Obviously, Cecil B. DeMille should have had Wally Cox playing Moses.

Pastor Batchelor: Well now, you said I said that Moses was meek. It's actually in the Bible. It says he was the meekest man in the world. But what is the specific question, Edward?

Edward: Okay. I hear the phrase, "the perfection of Christ" or Christ was perfect all the time. I never hear though, what we mean by that. Do we mean that He never stuttered, that He never used to a verb incorrectly, that He didn't have bad breath? Well, what do we mean by this? It's, it's, it's--to me, it's-- (rambling, unintelligible)

Pastor Batchelor: Well, that's a good question. That's a good question.

Edward: You can't have these human aspects attributed to Him.

Pastor Batchelor: Well I agree with you. I don't think that that's saying that when Jesus was a baby, that Mary never had to change His diapers or that He burped after feeding. That's not the kind of perfection we're talking about. We're talking about in moral perfection, meaning that, whenever He was tempted, He resisted the temptation to do evil.

He always gravitated towards what was right and morally pure. Christ was without sin, and sin is not a person who stutters. Stuttering is not a sin, or tripping over a rock is not a sin. Sin is knowing to do good and not doing it; choosing to do evil and breaking God's law.

We've got that lesson that talks about the nature of Christ, was Christ like us. And we'll be happy to send you that lesson. We'll send it to you for free. Hopefully, you'll be able to read that, Edward, and it'll be a blessing to you.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is, 1-800-835-6747.

Pastor Batchelor: The human nature of Christ.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And you can ask for the book, The Human Nature of Christ. You know Pastor Doug that reminds me, one of the disciples came and asked Jesus; they said show us the Father and we'll be happy. And Jesus said, "Have I been so long time with you...Philip? he who has seen Me has seen the Father." What Jesus is referring to is character. If you see My character, you know what I'm like, that's what the Father is like, and that's perfection.

Pastor Batchelor: Absolutely.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is David calling from Sacramento, California. David, welcome to the program.

David: Hi

Pastor Batchelor: Hi

David: My question is in two places actually, Romans chapter 8, verse 13, where it says, "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live." The second passage is over here in Galatians chapter 5, verse 24. And it says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts." Now my question is, how do we get a hold of the Holy Spirit in such a way that we can literally put to death the deeds of the body?

Pastor Batchelor: Well, you've got the right idea, but it's really the Holy Spirit getting a hold of us. We need to surrender our lives to God, through prayer, and meaning business with God; realizing that without Him, we can't do anything. And just say, "Lord, I'm Yours. I want to serve You. I want to be a new creature; and I need Your mind, Your Spirit to be in me."

And so when that lust of the flesh comes that Paul is referring to here, we can say, "No. I am not going to satisfy that because that old man that I was a slave to, that old nature, it's going to be crucified," meaning it's going to be executed. "I'm not going to live to gratify the carnal desires and not feed the spirit."

So, it's only through the power of the Spirit we can do that. Now, I'll put this in personal terms. I struggled before being a Christian. I drank, and I smoked, and cursed, and I did everything everyone in the world typically does. And when I decided to be a Christian, I went through the struggles of changing those habits.

And with each one of those things, somewhere along the way, I had to say, "I really would like to have another drink, but Lord, I'm not going to satisfy that. I'm going to crucify that old person." And dying is not easy; it was painful. And denying the lusts of the flesh, it's painful, whether it's smoking, or drinking, or anything else. It could be chocolate for you, but whatever it is that is coming between you and God, it has to be laid aside; and it's a daily battle.

Now, being more specific, David, someone once explained it to me this way, and it was a good illustration. It's almost like you've got two dogs in your backyard and you're going to have to fight them. And one dog, you feed him the very best of dog food, and you groom him, and you exercise him, and you love on him, and he's as healthy as a dog can be.

And its twin brother, you starve it, and you don't give it any affection, you don't give him any water for about five days; when those two dogs finally have to fight, the one who has been nurtured is going to win. We have two natures within us. We get to choose every day which nature we want to nourish, which one we want to feed.

When temptation comes, whatever nature you've been feeding is typically going to be the stronger and victorious. If we, through watching worldly programs and television, and satisfying whatever our carnal desires are, if we're feeding the wrong nature, if we're not praying, we're not reading the Word, that's what's going to win when temptation comes.

But, if we're walking with the Lord, praying, spending time in the Word, filling our mind with the principles of truth, when a temptation comes, it's going to be a lot easier to resist that.

David: I understand about resisting temptation, but the Scripture here indicates that we can take the Spirit of God and literally put to death these desires. And my understanding of death is once something is dead, it no longer lives in you; and it's no longer going to be a problem for you, ever. And my problem is specifically is dealing with lust and trying to control that. I mean, there have been times I thought it was dead and gone, only to have it raise its ugly head a couple of days later, or a week later. Now all of a sudden, I don't have it dead anymore. And so I'm wanting to know the secret of how do I get a hold of the Spirit of God to put it to death permanently?

Pastor Batchelor: You know what, you're talking about a wonderful truth right now. I just read a book on this, when you come to the place that you love the Lord so much, you would rather die than sin. And so I believe that that is a process of sanctification; but when you love the Lord so much that you're just controlled by love for Him, it becomes easy.

Now, you'll always be tempted in this life, the devil is there. The devil tempted Jesus; but it was so much easier for Jesus to resist the temptation because He loved the Father so much. That's the relationship I think we need.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, as we draw closer and closer to God and, by God's grace, we resist those temptations, eventually the devil gives up. He goes somewhere else. It does require effort, and faith, and prayer; but God has promised that if we draw close to Him and resist the devil, he will flee from us. Sometimes that takes time, but God has given us His promise; and that's good news.

Pastor Batchelor: You know, we have a book we'd like to send you, David, and it's called, "Man's Flicker or God's Flame?" and that talks about the love of God. There's also the book, Life in the Spirit, by Joe Crews. It's a classic on this. We'll send you a free copy.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, "Man's Flicker or God's Flame?" and Life in the Spirit is the other book. Our next caller is Roy and he's listening from Toronto, Canada. Roy, welcome to the program.

Roy: Good night

Pastor Batchelor: Good evening

Roy: Good evening, yeah. What I want to ask you, I heard what you have said once. And the Bible said we're going to live with Christ 1,000 years; and then Christ, He's going to put the devil for 1,000 years here in the bottomless pit. But you said we're going to live in heaven with Christ 1,000 years. So I want to know why Christ is going to put the devil for 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, and we're not going to be down here for him to tempt us? We're going to be in heaven.

Pastor Batchelor: Yes. Well of course, the devil is bound. He can't tempt us during the 1,000 years; and we're living and reigning with the Lord. Now, let's talk about the sequence real quick. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you" in John 14, first three verses; "and when I come again, I will receive you unto Myself. I'm going to prepare mansions for you."

So He's gone up, He's preparing mansions. He said, "I will come again and receive you to Myself." 1st Thessalonians 4 says we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes. We're going up. The 1,000 years begins with the second coming of Jesus, and it says the dead in Christ rise with the resurrection.

The second resurrection, and you find this in Revelation 20, doesn't happen until the end of the 1,000 years. So the righteous go up when the millennium begins. Satan is bound. When the devil talked to God in the book of Job, he says, "I've come from the earth, walking up and down and to and fro in the earth." He's captain of this planet. This planet is going to be desolate. Jeremiah 4 says it's covered with dead bodies. And so the whole planet is in ruins. It's turned upside down; and it's covered with the bodies of the slain.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, when it talks about the devil being bound in the bottomless pit, sometimes the phrase, "bottomless pit" is confusing to people. But if you look the word up in the Greek, it means the "abussos," the same word, when translated in the Hebrew Old Testament in Greek, the same word is used to describe the earth after the second coming of Christ.

It's broken down by the glory of the Lord. The wicked are all destroyed. Just Satan and his angels are left here on this earth. This is the bottomless pit. They have nobody to tempt. For a thousand years, Satan and his angels think about what they have done. All the righteous are in heaven with Christ; and the wicked are dead.

Pastor Batchelor: That's why it says the rest of the dead don't live til the thousand years are finished. That, again, is Revelation 20. You know, the best thing would be, Roy, if we could send you that free study guide we've got that deals with that thousand years of peace.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That's what it's called, A Thousand Years of Peace. And to receive that, just call our resource line. That's 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for the study guide, A Thousand Years of Peace; and we'll be sending that out to you. We're going to take our next caller at this time. We have Melissa who is listening from Brooklyn, New York. Melissa, welcome to the program.

Melissa: Hi, good afternoon. I have a two-part question.

Pastor Batchelor: Okay. We've just got three minutes, so let's do it quickly.

Melissa: Okay sure. Why must we suffer the consequences of our first parents, Adam and Eve? And the second question is, why must we sin, like, why are newborns--especially us, when we were just born--we are shaped in iniquity? Did my mother's sin conceive us, why?

Pastor Batchelor: Right. That's Psalm 51. That is a good question. You know, one of the things I think of is the story of Joseph. The children of Israel, during the time following Joseph, they ended up slaves in Egypt, not because of a decision they made, but because of the decision their fathers made. And people suffer, creatures suffer because of the decision of others.

No man is an island. And the decisions that our first parents made, a terrible decision to disobey and not trust God, has rippled down through the ages; and we all feel that. It's in our DNA. My brother was born with a terminal disease. He lived 34 years with cystic fibrosis.

We don't know if it's because of something that our grandparents did, or a misshapen gene. But somewhere along the way, these defects came into our nature from sin; and we pass things on often from parent to children, just because of the degeneration.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know the good news is, that, despite the fact that we are born with the sinful inclination, God has made a way of escape. And that's the whole plan of redemption. Not only has God promised to forgive those who confess their sins and put their trust in Him, but God has promised to make everything right; and that's the hope. We believe and long for the day when Jesus comes, and He'll make everything right.

Pastor Batchelor: And the second part of your question Melissa, while babies might be born with the selfish tendencies of all sinners, they're not born with a guilty record. Babies are innocent, and children are innocent until they reach that age of accountability. That probably varies from child to child.

But God doesn't want anyone to be lost. It says He invites all the little children to come unto Him; and He's inviting all of us to be His children. You can read in the Bible there in 1st John chapter 3, verse 1, "Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called sons of God." He wants us to be His children.

And while we find ourselves dropped in the middle of a war--there is a battle raging in the world all around us between good and evil--and we are all caught up in that. God has made a way of escape for each person.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know Melissa, I think you'll really appreciate the book that we offered for free this evening. It's called, The High Cost of the Cross; and it talks about the price paid for our redemption. And that tells us a little about how special we are to God, and what God is willing to do to save us. If you'd call our resource line, 1-800-835-6747, and ask for the book, The High Cost of the Cross, we'll be happy to send that out to you.

Pastor Batchelor: Well listening friends, when we look at the clock and we see the questions, we are sorry if we did not get to your call. But, the program doesn't have to end at this moment. If you go to the mother ship website, it's Amazing Facts. Go to,, either one will take you there. There's a lot of Bible study material there. You'll find many of your questions will be answered by visiting the website.

And, drop us a line while you're there. Tell us that you appreciate the program and help us stay on the air. God bless you until we study together again.


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