Clever Hans - The World's Smartest Horse?

Date: 08/28/2005 
In Germany around 1904 Wilhelm Van Austin owned an extremely bright horse he named Clever Hans. He earned his name because Van Austin claimed his horse could solve complex arithmetic problems...
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Hello this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In Germany around 1904 Wilhelm Van Austin owned an extremely bright horse he named Clever Hans. He earned his name because Van Austin claimed his horse could solve complex arithmetic problems; tapping out the answer with his hoof. Observers asserted that Hans could even read the instructions of a mathematics problem written on a chalkboard and then tap out the correct answer. Hans never seemed to get the wrong answer. It seemed that the horse had the mathematical ability of a calculus professor. Skeptical researchers tested Hans and asking strangers to present the math problems. Nothing made any difference. Hans was even able to answer the questions posed in foreign languages. Questions whispered to him and questions not even asked at all, but merely thought; Hans still came up with the correct answer. For a brief moment in history Clever Hans had the whole German scientific community chasing their tail trying to explain the phenomena. Many believed they had found a horse that was at least as intelligent as a human and possibly even brighter.

But, along came a skeptical scientist, Dr. Oscar Ponce, who refused to believe the results. Through a series of tests Dr. Ponce proved that although Hans was able to provide correct answers that he was not solving the problems himself. But, he was exceptionally clever about observing people. Hans was carefully watching the person presenting him with the problem and slightly tapping his foot until he noticed a slight flicker of behavior that told him that it was time to stop tapping. His perception was so keen that he noticed slight reactions that humans could not see. He was so gifted he could recognize the slightest change in facial expression and body language of everyone he observed. Hans was better at reading the behavior of people than people are of reading the behavior of horses or each other. Some have wondered. Do angels know what we are thinking or reading our minds or are they simply observing our body language. Stay tuned friends we are going to learn more as “Amazing Facts” brings you this edition of “Bible Answers Live”.


Pastor Doug: Hello listening friends and for anyone who may be tuning in for the first time this is “Bible Answers Live” it is a live, interactive and International Bible study. And you can participate by giving us a call at the toll free number 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297. If you want to ask a question it is 1-800- 463-7297 the resource number is 1-800-835-6747. My name is Doug Batchelor and I was in China last week so I’m getting jet lag after this.

Pastor Dick: Doug is sitting here folks—oh never mind. My name is Dick Debit. Welcome home Doug.

Pastor Doug: I am glad to be back, but it was a very exciting trip and my first time other than the Hong Kong airport to the mainland China. I got to preach in a Christian church there which is a great privilege. And I shared a little bit of Christian material that we passed out and had brought in with our suitcases and of course we climbed the great wall and saw the city in Tiananmen Square ad all those things, but it was a wonderful experience.

We just want our friends to pray for China. You have got conservative estimates of 1.3 billion people. Those who live there say there are much more than this because their birth controls restrictions. A lot of children aren’t reported.

Pastor Dick: Could you tell that it was that crowded in Beijing China?

Pastor Doug: Well you know the tourists at the locations that I went to were largely Chinese tourists because it is such a big country. It is kind of like we go to the Grand Canyon or Statue of Liberty.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: And we sure stood out in the crowd and people just came up and took our pictures and one funny thing. I was climbing the great wall and took Karen and Steven and Nathan our two youngest boys and someone stopped us and said Doug Batchelor. It is some of our listeners from Australia. So they obviously know the TV program because they recognized my face.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: But, it is funny to meet viewers on the Great Wall of China.

Pastor Dick: Yes.


Pastor Doug: Well that happened four times while we were on the Great Wall of China. Anyway we want our friend s to pray for China and pray for the program right now.

Pastor Dick: We shall do that. That is how we begin each program so let’s have a word of prayer. Father in heaven we pause for just a moment to reflect what you are doing in this world. There are so many people in this world Lord who know nothing of you and there are so many opportunities to share the word of God. And I just want to lift up the Christians in China as well as all of the other people there. Pastor Doug has just shared all of the opportunities there and Lord we want to remember them in our prayers. And I want to pray for this program also Lord that your Holy Spirit would use the areas and that you would use Pastor Doug’s mind and give him clarity of mind. And help him to feel rested and focused on your word as we seek to share your word tonight with our callers. We thank you again and we praise you for your love, and your grace, and your mercy in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Dick: Well Pastor Doug I have often wondered and I have had many people ask me this question. Can the devil and can angels really read a mind?

Pastor Doug: That is a good question and I have heard that often as well. We know that the devil can tempt us and he can put things in our mind. Even good angels can impress us and guide us, but you and I can put into each other’s minds just by talking. The question is can they get in your head and know what you are thinking?

This is a completely different power and according to the Bible only God can know what a person is thinking. I mean sometimes we can guess what out spouse is thinking, but it’s just an educated guess based on expressions and body language or other factors.


Pastor Doug: And some Scriptures for this is from 1 Kings Chapter 8: 39 King Solomon said when he was dedicating the temple in his prayer “For you alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.” And then again in John Chapter 2: 25 there the apostle said speaking of Jesus “He had no need that anyone should testify of man for He knew what was in men.” And so often Jesus knew what His adversaries were thinking very precisely and He answered the questions that were in their hearts before they voiced them. And sometimes we can read body language like this horse in our “Amazing Facts”, but only God knows the thoughts that we think and can look into our hearts.

Now some people might think now Doug does that mean that when we pray because the devil can look in our minds don’t pray out loud and he won’t know what we are thinking? And I would say no on the contrary pray out loud because it makes the devil tremble when we pray and of course Jesus prayed out loud and we can look at the Lord’s Prayer in John 17 written in the Bible.

Pastor Dick: I have had people ask me that question, too, about praying out loud is it dangerous. And you know should we do it and that kind of thing.

Pastor Doug: Yes. So there are times for personal prayer and quiet prayer and there is also a time to pray out loud and you might even do that by yourself. Jesus simply said enter into your closet and pray meaning don’t pray to be seen to impress those around you.

Pastor Dick: Now what about temptation Pastor Doug? Temptations are often there and we are going to offer a gift of a little book in a few moments and it has a picture of an ice cream sundae on the front. And boy chocolate I am tempted. But, what about temptation is it wrong to be tempted?

Pastor Doug: Well as we were saying that he devil can put temptations in our minds. But, he can’t read our minds and he can’t also force us to surrender. If we are forced to sin it is not sin. If a woman for instance is raped that is not the same thing as committing adultery. She is innocent because it is forced.

Pastor Dick: Okay alright.

Pastor Doug: So in the same way the devil can’t force us to sin it must be a choice, but he can tempt us and even Jesus was tempted and it was not a sin. Every day we face this. And some might be wondering well I keep falling into the same temptation. How can I have victory? What are the tips or are there any guidelines in the Bible to be an over comer in the face of temptation? And we have something we want to offer for people which are very practical along those lines.

Pastor Dick: Yes. This is a book that our host wrote not too long ago. It’s called “Tips for Resisting Temptation” and I wish you hadn’t put that chocolate on there Doug.


Pastor Doug: Well I didn’t do the cover design, but it does certainly fit.

Pastor Dick: This is an excellent little book if you are dealing with any sort of temptation in your life and you are wondering about all of the aspects of temptation. Please call our resource operators and ask for a copy. It is called “Tips for Resisting Temptation” and it will help you to understand the entire phenomenon of temptation and how to respond to it. So call 1-800-835-6747 and the call is free, the book is free and you do want this in your library. So call tonight and they will make this book available to you ASAP.

We take a couple of internet questions each week before we go to the phones so Pastor Dug let’s do that. This question comes from Hasuisse who asks is it okay to wear jewelry or not?

Pastor Doug: Well that is a good question and I m assuming they are wanting to know about it as a Bible Christian?

Pastor Dick: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Well there are a couple of cases in the Bible where God’s people wore jewelry. But, that doesn’t mean that it was God’s idea or that He approved of it. I think if we strip it down to its very base that Adam and Eve probably did not pierce their appendages and hang minerals off their bodies. There is something unnatural about that. And of course the Bible says that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we should not make any cuttings in our flesh. And that would go for tattoos as well because that is sort of a permanent graffiti that people put on bodies.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: Our bodies are the temple of God and there are many examples in the Bible where the Lord told the people to take their jewelry off because they made the golden calf from their earrings. And God told them to break off their ornaments in Exodus Chapter 32 so He could know what to do with them. And again when Jacob went to meet with the Lord Genesis Chapter 35 he told his family break off your jewelry and then buried it and went to meet with the Lord. So we often sin and take it off and it comes back little by little and so God is asking His people to model Christianity by simplicity. You know a few years ago tele evangelists got into trouble and the news media made a hay day with some of them and their indiscretion and immorality and a song became very popular and it said would Jesus wear a Rolex? And they were mocking a lot of these tele evangelists and their wives because they were flamboyant and ostentatious dress! And here they are asking for money. So the jewelry really was a symbol of wealth and some people do flaunt it that way so I think a Christian needs to ask those questions. Like can the Lord be glorified by this? And what would Jesus do?

Pastor Dick: Right. Modesty is what we should show. Okay let’s take a second question. This one comes from Eric and he says a friend tells me that she enrolled in a course on the book of Revelation at school and the leader said up front that the book was hotly debated at the Council of Nicaea, but in the end it was included in the canon. What have you heard regarding this? I think what he really is asking is was there some question about Revelation being included in the Bible?

Pastor Doug: Well yes I think there probably was and there have been questions about a number of New Testament books; there are always critics. For me that is a very easy question for me to answer because I have spent so many years in seminars doing lectures and I did something called “Revelation Seminar” for years, and it is such an obviously inspired book because so much of the prophecy has come true precisely. And of the 404 verses in Revelation 278 can be found almost word for word somewhere else in the Bible including the New Testament so Revelation is something of the capstone of all Scripture and it is really a Revelation of Jesus. It is how the book begins not the revelation of John, but verse one the revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave him. So we need to really be sure before we read that book because it says this is a message from God.

Pastor Dick: Right. Praise the Lord. And Pastor Doug it is time for us to get to the phones. We want to do that now starting in Boise, Idaho. We want to welcome Tamayo who is a first time caller to the program.

Tamayo: Thank you.

Pastor Dick: You’re welcome and your question please?

Tamayo: There are three Yeshuas mentioned in the Bible. Yeshua son of man which led the people to the Promised Land. Yeshua son of Josadec who led the people to the Promised Land and then there’s Yeshua the branch that is our messiah. Why the two Yeshuas their names came over to the English language as Joshua, but Yeshua the branch came over to the English as Jesus. And I did some research and it said that the name Jesus means God fish god and I see the Catholic Pope wearing a fish hat and also the fishes that are on cars.

Pastor Doug: But, what is the question?

Tamayo: Why did they change His name to Jesus and did not translate it over to Joshua? Like they did the other two.

Pastor Doug: Notice what you just did Tamayo. You said that in Hebrew and you are correct Yeshua. It is sometimes translated from English Yahushua because as you go from one language to another and Jesus in Spanish is Hazeus and of course in many different languages it is different. The New Testament is written in Greek. And it is true that the same word translated as Jesus—Zeus was a god in Greek mythology. And it was not only a god, but a general term for god. Do you understand what I am saying?

Tamayo: No.

Pastor Doug: Well in other words in Hebrew it is the same thing. You’ll find the name Elohim is a name of God. But, it can also be part of people’s names. So the name Jesus is the Greek equivalent of “God is Savior” remember what the angel said to Mary you’ll call his name Jesus because they will save Hs people from their sins. And it is true it does have part of the same word that is used in the name of Zeus. But, it is a Greek way of translating that Yeshua. Now some people have tried to make this into a corruption of that by people somehow not pronouncing it in the Hebrew saying either Yahushua or Joshua that they are giving credibility to a pagan god, but did you know that in the Bible Baal is sometimes called the Lord. In the Old Testament they called him the Lord. Well just because someone calls a pagan god by the same name doesn’t corrupt the name of God. So what a name means when you pronounce it has a lot t do with the definition it is given and is understood.

Let me give you another example because I don’t know if I am making this clear. I just came back from China and in Japan I stopped there and I was kind of surprised to see a swastika as a symbol of decoration. And upon inquiry it dated back to before Adolf Hitler and it didn’t mean at all what Hitler came for the swastika to mean. It was once an art form in Japanese art that was perfectly innocent and because of the association of Hitler it has become very evil. Well names mean different things in different cultures. And the name Jesus is not a pagan name it is simply the Greek way of saying Yahushua. And some people have tried to draw a line and create a doctrine and change the whole translations of the Bible and it is almost like suggesting that anyone who has used the name of Jesus is for last number of years is almost worshipping Zeus or Dagon or one of these pagan gods and I think that, that is dangerous thinking.

Tamayo: Okay.

Pastor Doug: You know I have written an article on this. Because we run into this question a lot and it is called “The Name of God” and by the way I sometimes refer to Jesus as Yahushua and there is nothing wrong with that. But, if you’d like to read the article just go to the “Amazing Facts” website and it is free to read it and you can download it and just “Amazing Facts dot org” and go to the free library it is an article called “The Name of God” You can do a search and it will take you there.

Tamayo: Okay.

Pastor Doug: It has all the original languages and the history.

Tamayo: Alright thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thank you.

Pastor Dick: Tamayo good question and thanks for the call. Let’s go next to Henderson, Nevada and talk with Tonya who is listening on the internet. Hi Tonya.

Tonya: Hi.

Pastor Dick: And your question please.

Tonya: My question is regarding when God commands us to honor our mother and father. I had a situation happen a couple of years ago and I went through a divorce and I was staying with my mom and my two girls were staying with me there. My youngest daughter came to me very upset and she told me that her step-father my mom’s husband had touched her inappropriately. I didn’t talk to my mom about it then because she had been going through some things and I just didn’t think that she could handle it, but what happened when I did decide to tell her; she turned on me. She was very upset and saying a lot of things that are slanderous and being mean spirited toward me and my children. And I have tried to work this out with my mom and she knows that I am a Christian and she knows that I love the Lord and I have tried to maintain peace, but at the same time I have not gone back to her house. I don’t go to family functions.

Pastor Doug: Now I don’t want to rush you, but what is the question?

Tonya: The question that I have is that in honoring my mother do I still have to participate in her life?

Pastor Doug: Now if you as your child’s guardian believe what your daughter has been at risk by being exposed to your step-father I guess is who this is.

Tonya: Yes.

Pastor Doug: It is not a question of breaking God’s commandment about honoring your parents to avid that contact. And I think you also have a commandment in the Bible to protect your children. So you can respect your mother and write a letter and maybe some time could go by and there could be some confession and reconciliation. But, in the meantime until the problem is acknowledged there could be a repeat of that behavior. And I think though it may be painful you are safe in maintaining your distance.

Tonya: Okay. I just want to do that and I think that has caused even more resentment even though I am respectful I am not there.

Pastor Doug: Well and then the other thing you could do is just have brief visits where your daughter is not out of your eyesight. Or have kind of a controlled visit that when you visit your mom that your step-dad is just not around. So you can also try to maintain a relationship that way.

Tonya: Okay.

Pastor Doug: I hope that helps a little bit.

Tonya: Well okay thank you.

Pastor Doug: Okay God bless. That is a heart breaking question.

Pastor Dick: It is and that is a tough question. Yes. We’ll go next to Orlando, Florida and talk with Roland who is listening on WTLM.

Roland: Hello.

Pastor Dick: and your question please?

Roland: With reference to Hebrews Chapter 1: 1 and the first part of verse 2 does that put Jesus as the last prophet? And therefore negate all subsequent prophets?

Pastor Doug: Well let me read this for our friends who are listening Hebrews 1: 1 & 2 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” And so you are wondering if that would make Christ the last prophet and any prophets beyond would be false prophets?

Roland: Correct.

Pastor Doug: The only problem with that is that the writer of Hebrews, Paul, was chosen as an apostle after Jesus had ascended to heaven. And he is a prophet because he is—he makes a number of prophecies and he actually had visions. And then of course you read in Acts Chapter 2 and in Joel Chapter 2 where it talks about in the last days God will pour out His spirit on all flesh and your sons and your daughters will prophesy.

And so the gift of prophecy 1 Corinthians 12 and I think also in 14-- the gift of prophecy is a current gift. Paul always speaks of it not as past gift or a fleeting gift, but as a current gift in a church and when he lists the gifts he lists the gift of prophecy up near the top. So I don’t believe that Hebrews Chapter 1: verse 2 is telling us that Jesus is the last prophet. It is simply saying that in these most recent days or lastly He has spoken to us by His Son. The last there doesn’t mean ultimate; it means most recently.

Roland: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Roland: Alright thank you.

Pastor Doug: A good question though. Thank you.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Roland and to Brooklyn, New York Evelyn is listening on WMCA welcome Evelyn. May we have your question please? Okay we’ll go on to Long Island and talk with Immanuel who is also listening on WMCA. Immanuel?

Immanuel: Yes thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Dick: Yes sir.

Immanuel: Okay I—John 17: 9 & 10.

Pastor Doug: And you want me to try and explain this a little bit?

Immanuel: Yes.

Pastor Doug: I will read this for our friends John 17: 9 “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all of mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.”

Immanuel: Yes, but I am asking who that was. He is not praying for the world, but He is paying for whom?

Pastor Doug: Well Christ provided forgiveness for the whole world, but only those in the world that accept Him and respond to the Holy Spirit working in their lives become His. So while He has provided—it’s like a cruise ship might have life boats for everyone, but not everyone chooses to get into the life boats. Even the Titanic had too few life boats, but some went away empty.

Immanuel: Okay. Because each time that I read it I got that is the whole world. But, He doesn’t pray for the world, you know that the world would come?

Pastor Doug: Well now I see what you are saying. There is actually another aspect to this.

Immanuel: Right.

Pastor Doug: Immanuel the word world means a couple of things in the Bible. In one place it says love not the world neither the things that are in the world.

Immanuel: Right. Right. Right.

Pastor Doug: But, this is when God said God so loved the world. So when John says in 1 John Chapter 2: 11 “Love not the world.” He means love not worldliness. And when Jesus says I pray not for the world, He means he knows that the world is going to perish. But, the people in the world that respond to salvation it says that Jesus is especially praying for them. But, the wickedness of this world Jesus called the devil the prince of this world. That is what he is not praying for,

Immanuel: Right. Right. Right.

Pastor Doug: That’s worldliness.

Immanuel: Okay. Thank you very much and thank you for your ministry!

Pastor Doug: Well thank you.

Immanuel: May God help you.

Pastor Doug: God bless you. Thanks.

Pastor Dick: Thank you Immanuel we appreciate your question. Pastor Doug I know we have just about a minute. There’s the music.

Pastor Doug: We are going to take our break right now friends and we like to schedule this by about half way through the program and we are not going away. And we have some important announcements to share in a moment from Pastor Dick and it gives our stations a chance to identify themselves. And I also like to highlight what is one of the fastest growing resources on the internet which is the “Amazing Facts” websites. There are quite a few of them and of course we have the “Amazing Facts” mother ship. Just “Amazing Facts” “dot org” “dot com” “dot TV” “dot net”. You can also go to “Bible Universe” “Bible University” There’s “Sabbath Truth dot com” if you want to find out about our upcoming revival you can type in “05 revive dot org” and I think we have about 20 websites that are active right now Pastor Dick. They are offering Bible studies and courses and research and I like the word plethora. So we’ll be back in just a few minutes. More questions to come.


Pastor Doug: Welcome back friends and if you have just tuned in and joined us this is “Bible Answers Live” an interactive, International, live Bible study. You can participate, you can listen and you can pray for us as we look at the answers in the word of God. Call the toll free number 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297. Pastor Dick gives out a different phone number as different resources become available. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: My name is Dick Debit. Welcome to the program and Pastor Doug share with us just a few more moments about China. What does impress you about this vast country?

Pastor Doug: Well you know I was amazed when our translator explained—we had a guide that helped us around—a Christian that virtually 90 % of the country is atheistic for general purposes. And of course that number is changing, but even at that number it is over a billion right now the black hole for the gospel is China. No question about it we need to pray for China. The government officials there really have a phantom fear. They saw what happened when the U.S. working through Ronald Regan and John Paul the 11 kind of worked to eliminate communism in Europe and they are afraid Christianity is going to spread in China that way. But, in reality first of all it is not the same threat that Russia was at that time during the cold war. It will just make it a better country and right now it is just a capitalistic country. American products everywhere and of course our shelves are filled with Chinese products. And they are reading our books and they are on the internet. And we just need to pray for that country and pray for the Christians over there that are much oppressed. They are not allowed to publically proclaim and they do still put them in jail and kill them for propagating Christianity.

Pastor Dick: Okay well we will pray for them. Let’s go to the phones Pastor Doug. We’ll start this part o the program with Queens, New York talking with Daniel who is listening on WMCA. Daniel welcome.

Daniel: Well thanks for having me on.

Pastor Dick: Yes sir.

Daniel: I just have one question that has been kind of plaguing me for some time. Do you think that a spirit can actually manifest into the physical realm and touch a human being?

Pastor Doug: Well yes. First of all when you say a spirit that could be good or bad, but we know angels are ministering spirits and there have been many times when angels have physically delivered God’s people. So somehow they are crossing over into our dimension. And are doing things to lift people out of the way of moving vehicles and protect in many cases—where in Psalm 91 “He will give the angels charge over the and they will bear thee up in their hands lest you dash your foot against a stone.” So we have reason to believe that even fallen angels or demons can also when allowed do things in the dimension we live in the physical realm.

Daniel: Oh cool.

Pastor Doug: And then of course you have got the book of Job where Satan caused a lot of physical havoc for that old patriarch. In destroying his crops and his cattle and so yes he entered into the physical realm there. The devil performed miracles in the court of Pharaoh, right? When Moses threw down his rod Pharaoh’s magicians threw down there rods and they turned into serpents and that is spiritualism appearing as a physical manifestation. So I think the answer is yes.

Daniel: Okay thank you very much.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Daniel. To Georgetown, California and Rick is listening to the program welcome Rick.

Rick: Hello thank you for your taking my call.

Pastor Rick: Yes sir and your question?

Rick: My question is based on Acts Chapter 17: 29 and what leads me to it is the Bibles we have in our church have these symbols that have been linked to witchcraft and even the Ouija board. I talked to people about it and want to get rid of it, but these are all in our Bibles.

Pastor Doug: Can I read that verse? Most of our people are probably not in front of a Bible and many are in their car or they are dusting and clicking. Acts 17: 29 “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.” So are you talking about some of these images that are stamped onto the Bible?

Rick: Yes stamped on the spine and on the inside and it is supposed to represent the Trinity. It says it is an ancient Latin symbol.

Pastor Doug: You know I have the Bible in about 10 different versions so it is all on the computer and I have none of the artwork. But, I know what you are talking about. Is it a kind of swirling triangular design?

Rick: It almost looked like a pretzel, but yes a triangular design.

Pastor Doug: That is well put. I don’t know as there is any Satanic power connected with that symbol. There could be if someone believes it. In some cultures and we talked about symbols earlier tonight. Someone asked about the name of Jesus and mentioned about the swastika. The five pointed star which of course you even find on the American flag is a Pentagram. And it is supposedly used in Satanic worship because it looks like the goat two horns and a beard and the long ears. Well it is also a very simple geometric form and it doesn’t mean every time you see that form there is some diabolical association. Do you know what I am saying? So that design that you are describing. That triangular pretzel I think is maybe just a logo that is supposed to represent the three parts of one God. And for some people if they are uncomfortable there are Bibles you can buy that don’t have that. I am just guessing, but I think they are Thomas Nelson Bibles or publishers and some others may have it.

But, Paul says that if a person’s faith is troubled and they are weak don’t do anything to violate your conscience because anything that is not faith is sin. But, I don’t think most people are bothered by the logos and it doesn’t bother me.

Rick: But, that is why I bring it up because a member of my family who wouldn’t go to my church. I finally got them in church and they questioned me about it and brought it to my attention. Already they were having problems with coming to church.

Pastor Doug: So they thought that it was satanic?

Rick: Well yes.

Pastor Doug: Well that is unfortunate and I would think a person like that is hypersensitive if they can’t look past little things like that. Let me give you a similar illustration. You know there are some Christians that think the cross should not be on any of the churches. And when it talks about worshipping in the Bible it is talking about worshipping Christ not the actual cross and actually had someone walked out of a communion service because there was a cross about three inches tall on top of the communion plate.

And I thought now how sad to look and miss the whole purpose of the Lord’s Supper because you are distracted by a logo and Paul talks about those with a weak faith and they are easily offended by that. As far as possible we should try not to offend those types and if you are not careful you will be walking around superstitious all the time. I had some friends and they did not want to go inside the house because there was a lamp that had six sides and that was the number of the devil because of a six sided lamp. Now isn’t that taking it too far?

Pastor Dick: There’s a song in the Bible that has a phrase in it about falling on our knees with our face down.

Pastor Doug: Some people think it is sun worship.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: Well it is because the sun rises in the east and it is talking about Jesus the sign of righteousness. People can be hypersensitive about all kinds of things and I wouldn’t let it bother me. If it bothers you just avoid that Bible.

Rick: Right I have my own. About baptism and paganism do you have any other material?

Pastor Doug: About the symbols? There is a book and I don’t subscribe to all that is in it. But, the mother of all books that accompanies this is called “The two Babylon’s” it is by D. Hispock.

Rick: Alright I got that I just haven’t read that yet.

Pastor Doug: Yes well he is sort of the foundational information on the roots of many of these symbols and ceremonies. Okay?

Rick: Okay well thanks.

Pastor Doug: That’s alright Rick. Thanks for your call.

Pastor Dick: Alright thanks for the call. Let’s go next to talk with Jerrod in Bozeman, Montana. Who is listening on KMEA. Hello Jerrod.

Jerrod: Hello. Well I have a very close friend whose wife in the beginning was very interested in Bible study and church and Sabbath and what not, but kind of as the money ran out and the years went by she has gotten into partying and going to the baas and in the bar scene and wanting to become a bar tender and has very inappropriate website exploration and even went so far as to do some kind of pin up calendar type of stuff. My friend and I are wondering and he feels it is just his lot and to stick with this because there is no Biblical grounds for divorce or separation or counseling. She won’t have any of that. She wants nothing to do with any religious talk or ask for help and basically has just separated herself from him. He thinks it was his lot because he married somebody who was not equally yoked.

Pastor Doug: Well one of two things is going to happen. Jerrod pardon me for butting in, but I hear where you are heading and if he doesn’t have Biblical grounds for divorce which is her violating the marriage vows then he is faced with praying for her and setting an example. But, based on her behavior right now she is exploring immorality and will eventually give him grounds for Biblical divorce.

Jerrod: Well that is right where we are at right now.

Pastor Doug: In the meantime he needs to pray for her and maybe fast and pray. That God will capture her heart and if that does not happen it probably will reach a point of no return eventually.

Jerrod: Well I really appreciate your help and that helps a lot and we’ll pray about it and let God lead and see where it goes.

Pastor Doug: God bless Jerrod.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for your call Jerrod. To Leonia, New Jersey we want to talk to Rafina who is listening on WMCA.

Rafina: Yes. I have a question in Ezekiel. It is about the valley of dry bones. Who are the dry bones referred to in here Pastor?

Pastor Doug: Ezekiel 37 yes. They represent God’s people. I wrote an article about this you can read and it is called “Reviving Dry Bones” and it is at our website, but God’s people there were battles where whole valleys were filled with the slain. And eventually bleached bones and Ezekiel sees this valley of bones and it looks like Israel has been defeated and there is no hope. And God says I can bring this valley back to life. I can bring this army back to life.

Rafina: So they are God’s people.

Pastor Doug: Yes it is a representation that Israel had been carried away captive by Nebuchadnezzar and Ezekiel has this vision in Babylon and God is letting them know that Israel is going to come back again and that they can be revived. They can be a Nation again and have an army again. And what happens is it says, 4 “Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these dry bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.” So the preaching of the word brings these bones back to life and what would seem impossible to man God creates a resurrection of an army. And it is also symbolic of Him raising up His church.

Rafina: Okay so I have just one question about that. They are all Israelites; these people?

Pastor Doug: Well the vision firstly applies to what happened to National Israel. But, the vision goes beyond that and it talks to the church today. Maybe you are in a church that is spiritually dead. And it is like a valley of dry bones. Through the proclamation of the word God can bring them back to life. And they can become an army.

Rafina: Because to God it is my people.

Pastor Doug: Right and today we are spiritual Israel. The Bible says if you are Christ’s; then you are Abraham’s seed. I‘d invite you to look at the article at the “Amazing Facts” website it is called “Reviving Dry Bones”.

Pastor Dick: That website is “Amazing Facts dot org” or “dot com” type in either one and look in the free library and you will find that article called “Reviving Dry Bones”. Please go to that website Rafina or anyone who would like to read it. Pastor Doug let’s move over here to Stacy who is in New York listening on WMCA. Stacy welcome to the program.

Stacy: Hi and good evening I just wanted to ask a quick question.

Pastor Doug: Good evening.

Stacy: I am living a vegetarian lifestyle and my husband is not. And I have a friend who recently told me that our son will not grow up a vegetarian because he read somewhere that he is weak. This disheartens me, but do you have any advice for what he told me?

Pastor Doug: Well first of all if he is talking about there’s a verse—let me just set the stage for our listening friends. If people have listened for awhile I believe the Bible encourages which is an ideal the diet of Eden which is a vegetarian diet. But, there is not a command in the Bible that you have to be a vegetarian. If you are going to eat meat the Bible is clear it should not be the unclean meat. And that is both in the New and Old Testaments. But, for a family who wants to eat a vegetarian diet and there is conflict you should accommodate your family and be a good example. But, sometimes people look at the verse in Romans 14 where Paul says that he who is weak eats herbs. He isn’t talking about vegetarians being weak he is talking about those who have weak faith and don’t eat the meat of the sacrifice of the idols because they are afraid they will be worshipping the idols. It has nothing to do with vegetarianism opposed to meat eating.

But, from a medical stand point some of the most successful athletes are vegetarians. The iron men athletes and the Triathlon athletes and many of those who just rode in the tour de France are vegetarians because they have better endurance. So it is a complete myth that you have to meat to be healthy. People who are vegetarian live longer and in countries where they eat meat you have higher incidents of heart disease and that is because of the high cholesterol in meat. You don’t get cholesterol from plants. So the whole idea that you are weaker by eating a vegetarian diet is a complete myth and no true at all.

Stacy: But with children are they the same?

Pastor Doug: Yes children you need a certain amount of protein, but there are just so many other places to get it than meat. You get protein from eating wheat bread and peanut butter. How about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are healthier than most people know? It has fruit grains and nuts if you have strawberry jelly.


Pastor Doug: So there is just plenty of ways and I haven’t had meat in 29 years and I am in pretty good shape for a grandfather.


Pastor Doug: So it is that all my kids they grew up vegetarian and they have all been in very robust health.

Stacy: Well do you have books in your library about this?

Pastor Doug: Oh yes. Absolutely just there is stuff you can read at our website. How old is your son?

Stacy: He is one year.

Pastor Doug: Oh he is a little young to read these books, but I think if you go and you read them and we have one called “Death in the Kitchen” which is one of the books we have. But, go to the website and just type in “health” and you will see a whole spectrum of books of what the Bible says about Christian health. Okay?

Stacy: Okay thank you.

Pastor Dick: Thank you for the call Stacy. Next Pastor Doug is Lexington, South Carolina Michael is listening on WBAJ Michael welcome.

Michael: Yes sir. Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Michael: Hi this is Michael and I appreciate what you all do and first of all just wanted to thank you all for being available to God in what you are doing.

Pastor Doug: Well thank you and say hi to our friends there in Kentucky.

Michael: Well we’re here in South Carolina.

Pastor Doug: Yes you are listening to WBAJ I know that—that is Dr. Linden De Rominet’s Station and your question?

Michael: My question is I have been a Christian since 1981 and been going to the same church. Up until six months ago and I learned the Sabbath truth and I am going to my Sunday church and my new Sabbath keeping church. I have a real burden for the folks I have been committed to for twenty years. And I am not running around like with my hair on fire sharing the Sabbath truth with everybody. But, I am trying to embody the truth and make it my own in my own family and we have done that for five months and we have really been blessed by God through that whole process. But, my question is I shared with my Pastor and a lot of the truth I have learned and he asked this question and I was kind of at a loss and I have learned some things since then, but I wanted to hear what you would say.

He said what about all the great Christian church fathers? What about your grandmother? He knows my grandmother was a godly woman. And what about all these great church fathers and women? The ones who went before us the Wesley’s, the Luther’s you know what about all of these people are they going to go to hell because they didn’t know the truth?

Pastor Doug: Let me read a Scripture to you. It is very interesting because my Bible just happens to be open to this very verse. Which sometimes happens Acts 17:30 “And at the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” When someone doesn’t know and they are ignorant God winks at it. And a wink is momentarily closing your eye. I think they are going to be millions of people in heaven who didn’t know the truth about the Sabbath or who indeed didn’t know the truth about polygamy being wrong. David will be in heaven and Jacob and Abraham had too many wives and we know that today, correct? They lived in such darkness on this and God judges us according to the light that we have.

Michael: Right.

Pastor Doug: And of course Wesley and Luther and these great men of God and there are millions of Christians today who still don’t know and I trust they will still be in the kingdom if they die before they are exposed to the truth. But, when men understand the light He commands us to repent and walk in the light. That’s the principle with the Sabbath and with any truth of God. And He says if you know these things then happy are you if you do them.

Michael: Yes I agree I think sometimes the resistance that I feel and I am trying to live this truth out in my own life and as people wonder about our family and all you know we share with them. And as I share this I see a little bit of resistance and it is almost like they want to close their eyes to a truth and that is sad to me.

Pastor Doug: There are—it is very difficult for a church that has been established and who meets every Sunday when they are exposed to the Sabbath truth to have the courage to say you know we have been wrong. Then they would have to change their sign and say we now meet on the seventh day instead of the first day. But, there are churches that are doing that. But, it is very rare and usually happens one person at a time.

Michael: Well the one thing I appreciate from you guys is the light that you have given this part of the world over here.

Pastor Doug: Well praise the Lord it is the glory to God and it is just the Bible and that is what we want to do is get the Bible out and the word does the work. We don’t do it.

Michael: That’s right. Well you guys are available and we really appreciate that.

Pastor Doug: Well God bless you and we are happy to hear the way the Lord is working in your lives. Thank you Michael.

Pastor Dick: Keep looking up Michael we appreciate the call. Let’s go next to Cleveland, Tennessee Jim has a question from the book of Mark. Jim welcome to the program.

Jim: Well thank you. The book of Mark Chapter 8: verses roughly 23 through 25. It says that Jesus heals a blind man and he spit in his eyes and put His hands upon him and asked him what he saw. And he said he saw men as trees walking and then it says he put His hands on him chain and it says he saw clearly.

Pastor Doug: Why did it happen in degrees like this?

Jim: Yes I mean Jesus doesn’t make mistakes.

Pastor Dick: I think obviously the Lord allowed this to happen on purpose. And this is my understanding of it that eyes in the Bible represent understanding. Jesus said if your eye is single your whole body will be full of light. He talked about those who have no spiritual discernment as those who have the blind leading the blind. So when He heals this man’s eyes and his eyes are restored in degrees. First he sees men as trees walking and what that means is they are blurry like a tree. God often restores our light little by little as we can handle it so when God opens our eyes it isn’t always all at once that is the lesson 0n the way He did this healing.

Jim: I see.

Pastor Doug: When He opens our spiritual eyes it often happens in degrees as we can handle it. Okay and we are trying to get one more question before we run out of time Jim and I hope that will help you a little bit.

Jim: That helped me a lot and I appreciate it.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call let’s go next to Arcadia, California and John is a first time caller and John we have about 2 minutes what is your question?

John: Hi my question is kind of a general one. It is about the old laws from the Old Testament. Why would God give us these laws if He was going to make them not important anymore? Like for example the dietary laws why at one time He wants us to eat certain foods and then in Matthew 11: 15 it says “What goes into a man’s mouth is not what makes it unclean what comes out of it is what makes it unclean.”

Pastor Doug: Yes well let me deal with that one right there. First of all the verse in Matthew is also found in Mark Chapter 7 it has nothing to do about what kinds of food people eat Jesus said that in context of people washing their hands ceremonially before they ate. And the Lord said it is not really eating with dirty hands it is what is coming out of your heart. But, that doesn’t negate that it maters what we eat. Because every parent knows that it does matter what your children eat. But, in regards to the laws some are dietary laws and they weren’t done away with. But the ceremonial laws they were all types of Christ and that’s why they were done away with. But, the practical laws like the Ten Commandments, the moral laws, the health laws, the civil laws; they are all still used in the world today.

John: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And so we still need health laws because they had to do with sanitation and obviously they are still in operation today. But, that music is there and I am sorry well I hope I was able to help a little bit there John.

Other friends if we did not get to your question tonight we hope you will forgive us and give us another chance and we’ll be back God willing next Sunday and in the meantime please keep in mind we try and cover as many questions as we can both on emails written out and live, but this is a faith ministry. We hope you will believe I what we are doing and show us with a donation to support us and help us stay on the air. We’d love to hear from you and see how the Lord has been working in your life and perhaps blessing to the ministry. Just drop us a line at “Amazing Facts” or even on the website you can contact us. That is “Amazing Facts dot org” and don’t forget we have TV programs out there, too. Until next week remember that Jesus is the truth that will set you free.


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