How Welch's Grape Juice Was Born

Date: 12/04/2005 
Most people have heard of Welch’s Grape Juice. But not everyone knows the genesis of this grape juice and jelly empire. In 1869, Dr. Thomas Welch was a physician and dentist by profession. According to historical reports, a Sunday visitor to the Welch’s home who had a weakness for alcohol joined them at church and partook of the communion services in which fermented wine was used.
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Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact?

Most people have heard of Welch’s Grape Juice. But not everyone knows the genesis of this grape juice and jelly empire. In 1869, Dr. Thomas Welch was a physician and dentist by profession. According to historical reports, a Sunday visitor to the Welch’s home who had a weakness for alcohol joined them at church and partook of the communion services in which fermented wine was used. But the man could not stop with just a small sip. He kept on drinking and became rowdy and unruly. This greatly troubled Dr. Welch and strict Prohibition is to preach temperance.

Since he was also a communion steward at the Vinland Methodist Church, Welch decided then and there that a non-alcoholic wine was desperately needed and he begin experiments. He, his wife, and their teenage son, Charles, gathered baskets of grapes from near their home, soaked them and filtered the juice. He studied the controversial sterilization methods of Louis Pasteur and decided that he would try the process on grapes so he pasteurized it. The family bottled, sealed, and stored the juice. Then sat back and waited, anticipating what they’ve thought might be the inevitable explosion. It never happened.

The experiment, however, would explode with success decades later especially when the Prohibition movement began to pick up steam. Since Welch’s grape juice was the only non-alcoholic fruit drink on the market, the Welch’s juice really took off! Since antiquity, there have been several methods of preserving wine from fermenting but they always sacrificed much in the way of taste and texture. Dr. Welch’s process preserved both. Today, the name of the father and son—that is Dr. Thomas and Charles Welch—is synonymous with grape juice, jams, jellies, and a very successful international company.

Many wonder, since Jesus turned the water into wine, is there anything wrong with drinking a little fermented wine? Stay with us, friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live!


Pastor Dick: Welcome to Amazing Facts Ministries’ Bible Answers Live with Pastor Doug Batchelor. Do you find it challenging to understand the Bible? Are there passages of Scripture that confuse you? Is it sometimes difficult to connect what you read in the Bible with what you’ve been taught? Then you’ve found the right program because the word of God is a quick and powerful sword against evil. Stay tuned to better understand the will of God for your life.

This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible question, lines are open Sundays from 7 to 8 P.M. Pacific Time. Now, here’s your host, the president of Amazing Facts Ministries, author and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Doug: As Pastor Dick said, lines are open and so, if you would like to ask a Bible question tonight, that’s what this program is for. It is an international, interactive Bible study. And we’re here to serve you. We’ll search the Word together and claim the promise. If we seek, we’ll find. Toll-free number is 800-GOD-SAYS, that’s 800-463-7297. And if you want to make your call now or pick up the phone, you’ll have a good chance of getting your question in tonight’s program. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: My name is Dick Devitt. Good evening, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Good evening, Pastor Dick. And it’s good to have you back. We missed you last week.

Pastor Dick: Thank you. Glad to be back. We spent a lovely week up in Grants Pass, Oregon, last week.

Pastor Doug: And we have a lot of friends up there that tune in to the TV programs.

Pastor Dick: That’s right. That’s right.

Pastor Doug: And we send them our regards.

Pastor Dick: They send their greetings to you, too. We normally start our program with a word of prayer so let’s do that. Father in heaven, again, we come to You with joy and anticipation because we know, Father, that You are going to speak to somebody tonight and we thank you for the privilege of being able to participate in that. We pray that You will give Pastor Doug clarity of thought as we seek to open Your word and to share what it is that You want us to know tonight. Speak clearly to us, Lord, that You might be honored and glorified. We thank You and we praise You. In Jesus’ name. Amen!

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Dick: Welch’s. It has lots of health properties to it. It is good stuff.

Pastor Doug: You know, for a while there, people were saying that, “Oh, they found out in France that if you drink a little bit of wine, it’s good for your heart.” And of course, the people that loved alcohol are very happy for that report.

Pastor Dick: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: And they found that it really had nothing to do with the wine at all but it was the skin of the wine and it wasn’t the alcohol. And so, the benefit is there in the grape itself. But people have often wondered, you know, “Doesn’t the Bible talk about everybody drinking wine?” And I think what confuses many people is they did not have the word “juice.” It’s not used anywhere in the original… it calls it “wine,” sometimes “new wine,” sometimes “old wine,” sometimes it doesn’t identify and you got to read the context. But not every time you find the word “wine” in the Bible was it fermented.

Obviously, Jesus, when He said, “You don’t put new wine in old wineskins.” The “new wine” is unfermented.

Pastor Dick: And didn’t they condense it down to, Doug, often into a powdered form?

Pastor Doug: One of the methods before Dr. Welch developed the pasteurization of the grape juice was they would somewhat dehydrate it. Sometimes they even call it “strong wine” using the word “strong” not like in alcohol but “strong” in like “condensed,” like “concentrate.”

Pastor Dick: Right, right.

Pastor Doug: And that would prevent… the syrup would prevent the fermentation. But it did something to the flavor—the wine started tasting more like raisins and fresh grape juice. And that’s why Dr. Welch’s process was so popular is because I’ve known of people who struggled with alcoholism and yet they want to partake of the communion service.

Pastor Dick: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And that little sample that they give you at a typical church, if it was fermented, would set them off drinking again.

Pastor Dick: That’s right.

Pastor Doug: It’s all it took. And that makes, of course, the question, “Is there anything wrong with a Christian drinking a little alcohol? Suppose you’re not struggling with alcoholism?” We have something that will answer that—of course, everybody goes to John chapter 2 where it says Jesus turned water to wine and so, obviously there’s nothing wrong with wine. I firmly believe what Jesus did is He turned water into fresh grape juice.

Pastor Dick: And lots of people like to go to that passage that says, “Drink a little wine for your stomach and suppose to help, heal you,” and all of that sort of stuff…

Pastor Doug: And assume that it must be fermented.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: But actually there are antibiotic properties in grape juice…

Pastor Dick: Yes, yes.

Pastor Doug: It’s not in the alcohol. And so, when Paul was recommending that for Timothy, he was saying, “Yeah, this will settle your stomach.” And I’ve done that before where a little wine will settle your stomach—meaning, grape juice unfermented.

Pastor Dick: Grape juice, I’ve done that, too. Well, Pastor Doug, we do have an offer tonight and we want to make available to folks. It’s called, “The Christian and Alcohol,” and it helps to unpack all of these confusing dialogue that has taken place over the years about what kinds of alcohol are spoken of in the Bible, how they were used, where talks about fermented alcohol and unfermented alcohol—all of these questions in the Bible are discussed in this book written by our host, Pastor Doug Batchelor. And we want to make it available to anyone who will call our resource operators tonight, Pastor Doug.

1-800-835-6747, this is the number. The operators are standing by and this book will be sent out to anyone who asks for it tonight, “The Christian and Alcohol,” if you will call the operators and [coughing] excuse me. Call the operators and ask for a copy of “The Christian and Alcohol.” They will ship it to you. Absolutely free—the call is free and so is the literature. And any of the other literature that we mentioned during the program also, you can call that same number, 1-800-835-6747, or you can go to the Amazing Facts website, simple and find lots of the material and links to other sites as well.

We take a couple of Internet questions each week, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Pastor Dick: So why don’t we do that and so we can move on to the phones. The first question that we have tonight comes from Cape Town, South Africa. Andrei is asking pertaining to Hebrews 7:3, speaking of Melchizedek. Andrei wants to know, when he appeared to Abraham, was he perhaps really the Holy Spirit?

Pastor Doug: Well, some have wondered because of what it says here in Hebrews speaking of Melchizedek, there the author says, “Without father, without mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning of days nor end of life but may likened to the Son of God, remains a priest continually.” They say, “Well, this individual, Melchizedek—no father, no mother—he must be the third Person of the Godhead, or who was he?”

Paul is simply showing Melchizedek is a type of the Son of God in that his genealogy doesn’t appear in the Bible—no father and mother, he suddenly appears. It doesn’t seem to tell when he was born or when he dies. He appears and disappears, which gives him sort of this ethereal eternal nature. But Melchizedek was a real king. He actually brought food and brought bread and wine out to Abraham and Abraham paid tithe. Well, you don’t pay tithe to a spirit.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: That doesn’t do him any good.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: So, in the same way, it was just a symbol that Paul is using to explain that Melchizedek, a real person, was a type of Christ.

Pastor Dick: Okay, very good. Second question, “Why is it…” this come from Andrei also. He wants to know why is it that wherever a rich man is mentioned or wherever material riches are mentioned in the Bible, it seems that there is always a negative connotation applied to material riches?

Pastor Doug: Well, certainly it be connected with the statement of Jesus in Matthew 19:23 where He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” And even the disciples were astonished when He said that, “Who could be saved?” because everyone thought that, “Well, if you’re rich, God’s blessed you.” But in reality, now the Bible’s very clear that there are a few good people that are rich and there’s a lot of not-so-good people that are rich. And riches can be a stumbling block in our relationship because people trust, as Paul says, “They trust in their riches.”

The love of money… money itself is inanimate but the “love of money is the root of all evil.” And because it represents power and, you know, it will buy the pleasures, the pride, the prestige, the positions, and so people crave that and will often do anything—sacrifice their principles to acquire money.

Pastor Dick: The wealthy in God’s chosen people in Christ’s day often referred to the poor people as being condemned because they didn’t… because they weren’t blessed by Jesus with wealth and it was like…

Pastor Doug: That’s something like…

Pastor Dick: …power issue.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. But that’s something like a popular teaching among Christians today. They call it “prosperity preaching.”

Pastor Dick: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: If you have enough faith, you’ll be rich.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: But really, that’s not what the Lord teaches. If you’ll have enough faith, you’ll be holy.

Pastor Dick: Yeah, right.

Pastor Doug: He’s not looking for our material wealth. We’ll have golden streets someday but He wants us to be faithful. He wants us to be holy and there are exceptions. There are some in the Bible like Job and Abraham that were both godly and wealthy but they were the rare exceptions.

Pastor Dick: It was Paul who said, “Godliness with contentment is great gain.”

Pastor Doug: That’s right. “Better to have… live in a shack where there is contentment than live in a palace with strife.”

Pastor Dick: Exactly.

Pastor Doug: Paraphrasing Solomon.

Pastor Dick: Right, right. that if you have a Bible-related question, now will be a good time for Well, Pastor Doug, we still have a couple of lines open and so we want to let people know you to get your call in to 1-800-GOD-SAYS; 1-800-463-7297, and we’ll get you on the air—get your Bible question answered. You’ll be able to talk to Pastor Doug. Now is a good time to call.

Let’s take our first caller for the evening, Pastor Doug. We just spoke about fermented wine a few minutes ago and we have a question regarding that coming from Spokane, Washington. Mervin is listening on the Internet. Welcome, Mervin!

Mervin: Yes. The thing is there’s two different types of wine—there’s the fermented and white light. Did you know about that?

Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, you heard our opening comments tonight that you’ve got, of course, the new wine…

Mervin: Yeah…

Pastor Doug: …which is unfermented and…

Mervin: And we got the white light. They add alcohol to it. I thought we get to the term of white light. They cause heart trouble, you know.

Pastor Doug: A lot of the un… what do you call it? It’s not very classy wine. I’m trying to find the right word to say that. Basically, it’s grape juice…

Pastor Dick: It’s street stuff [laughing].

Pastor Doug: Yeah. There’s grape juice and they just probably inject the white light in right into it. So you get the alcohol effect but that’s not what the connoisseurs drink. You know, we’ll send you a free copy of that book, Mervin, if you’d like it—“Alcohol and the Christians.” It’s got lot of the details you were just discussing.

Pastor Dick: Call that number, Mervin; 1-800-835-6747, 835-6747. It’s an 800 number, the call is free and we’ll send that book to you. Pastor Doug, let’s go next to Orlando, Florida and talk with Roland who’s listening on WTLM. Hello, Roland!

Roland: Hello there!

Pastor Dick: And your question, please.

Roland: Dr. Doug, nice that you’re back on vacation. Prior to going on vacation, the question was raised to you whether or not Judas was predestined to betray Christ. Your response was no because your reasoning, if he was predestined, then he would not be acting on his own religion. In essence, that was your response. My question is what is the difference between Judas or the person of Judas and the person of Pharaoh based on Paul’s reasoning in… the record in Exodus 9:16 and also Paul’s reasoning in Romans 9:15 and 16, also Jacob and Esau as Paul loves to reason? And do you know [inaudible 00:15:37]…

Pastor Doug: Well, if you just name a question here. You’re kind of all over the place. What specifically is the question?

Roland: Jesus also said, “All the disciples that you’ve given Me,” praying to His Father, “all I have kept except one—the son of perdition.”

Pastor Doug: “The son of perdition,” right.

Roland: Was Judas not then predestined? Your right response was no, he was not. But I am asking, would you not having considered or reconsidered the parallel between Judas and Pharaoh?

Pastor Doug: Alright. Well, let’s… let me just take one piece at a time because you’ve thrown a lot of Scriptures on the table and they all need to be looked at separately.

First of all, if God simply put His finger on Judas and said, “I am picking you to betray My Son and I’m pre-wiring you—predestining you,” if you interpret “predestined” to mean that He had been pre-wired or programmed by the Lord that he would betray Jesus. And then Jesus said, “It would have been better for that man not to be born.” Well, then that makes God an accomplice. And why would He be punishing Judas for doing what he was pre-programmed to do? Now, that’s one question you have to ask yourself. Why would Jesus pick somebody who He knew was going to betray Him—that had been programmed to betray Him—and then punish him for doing it?

Now, with Pharaoh, it’s the same issue. I don’t believe Pharaoh was pre-programmed to betray… or I shouldn’t say “betray” but to repulse the Lord. Pharaoh…

Roland: Is that what Exodus… excuse me, Dr. Doug, is that alright?

Pastor Doug: I know. I know Exodus says… let me just—Exodus says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. That is an old expression term that’s explaining the circumstances that the Lord sent. Pharaoh’s heart was hardened by those things but it was because of his choice of how he was going to respond to the circumstances because another place, in the same passage of the Exodus, it says, “And Pharaoh hardened his heart.” So that adds a whole new aspect.

Then you mentioned Jacob and Esau. And in Romans, when Paul talks about Jacob and Esau, he’s not even talking about the brothers. He’s talking about their nations. “Jacob I loved, Esau I’ve hated.” Paul is quoting from the Old Testament where it’s talking about Jacob being Israel, Esau being the Edomites. And the reason He hated the Edomites is because of their behavior and He loved Israel because they had their trust in God.

So, each one of the cases that you’re citing are different. And you know, I must just respectfully disagree with the conclusion that God is up there arbitrarily deciding who He’s going to pre-program to love Him or that would destroy the whole concept that we have a free will…

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: …and we could choose to serve Him.

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: There’s an article we have at our website. You can read it for free, Roland. And it’s called, “Heavenly Hostage.” And it’s at one of the inside of report magazines. I encourage you to read that. It’s a big subject. I mean, this gets into the subject of “once saved, always saved” and we can spend half an hour or longer on that.

Pastor Dick: Roland, I want to encourage you to go to the website that I mentioned a few moments ago. It’s and that article can be found there and we encourage you to read it and then call us back. Tell us what you think afterward.

So let’s go on to Bunker Hill, West Virginia and talk with Adriano who’s listening on the Web. Good evening, Adriano! Hello!

Adriano: Thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Dick: Yes sir! Your question, please.

Adriano: Well, my question was how do you know when you are called to the ministry? And I guess the second part to it would be what would you do to confirm—like a prayer, perhaps—that you could ask God to confirm such a strong and important call?

Pastor Doug: Are you asking this question because you’re wondering if the Lord is calling you?

Adriano: Yes sir, I am! I was listening to… you know, the [inaudible 00:19:52] Code because I was close enough to go to some nights. And also then, I listened to the, you know, Revival Five via Internet and right at the end there, you were asked a question on what you’d be doing, you know, in the future and you said you’ll be training a lot of different… you hoped to train a lot of different evangelists. And I just felt a strong call like a voice had. And I just kept on, you know… you know what I mean? Like there was another occasion where I felt that I need to do something and, you know… you understand what I’m saying?

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, the greatest work in the world, Adriano, is to serve the Lord because what you’re doing will last forever.

Pastor Dick: Amen.

Pastor Doug: You know, a lot of the industries of the world when Jesus comes is just going to melt and vaporize it and all of the results of many people… their life’s labor is going to be gone. But when you’re involved in ministry, your life’s labor lasts forever because you’re laboring for souls. If you feel or if you’re sensing that you may be receiving a call to the ministry, of course, you just spread yourself before the Lord. You claim the promise of Jesus where He said, “If any man is willing to do My will, he will know of the doctrine whether it be of God,” and that’s in the gospel of John and we’re looking it up for you.

If you’re willing and say, “Lord, if you’re calling me, I’m willing to go.” Then it becomes God’s responsibility to show you. And then, finally, the ultimate litmus is you begin to take those steps and the Lord will open doors for ministry. You know, when I was called into ministry, initially, I had no theological training. And I was… people were knocking on my door saying, “Would you come preach?” And that confirmed to me that God was calling me because I’ve been praying about that. And the Lord seem to bless. That verse is John 7:17, “If any man will do His will, he will know of the doctrine whether it be of God.” And you’ll hear the Lord say to you, what He said to Peter, James, and John, “Follow Me and I will make you a fisher of men.”

Notice, you don’t immediately follow Him and become a fisher—He makes you one. So there’s a process in ministry, too.

Adriano: Okay. Yeah, because I… you know, I wanted to know if you would recommend, you know, 4 years of training such as in a seminar…

Pastor Doug: Seminary?

Adriano: Seminary, excuse me, or if you would recommend, of course, your program for 4 months, which I’ve been looking at.

Pastor Doug: Well, you know, some… many people do both. Some people will go through the evangelism training program and then they feel called to take maybe two more years. So, you just have to pray about that. We’ve done it where people come cold-turkey from the workforce into the evangelism college. Others have come halfway through their seminary—taking our program, going back to seminary. So, that’s really something the Lord will lay on your heart and I can’t be the Holy Spirit.

Adriano: Sure.

Pastor Doug: Alright?

Adriano: Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate your input and I will be praying about it.

Pastor Doug: Alright, God bless. And of course, we’ve got a website. You go to the Amazing Facts website, you can find out about the… we call it “AFCOE”—Amazing Facts Center of Evangelism.

Pastor Dick: That’s, Adriano, and thanks for the call. Let’s go next to Steve in Manhattan who is listening on WMCA. Good evening, Steve!

Steve: Good evening, Pastors. My question deals with Psalm 139:16. It seems to imply that our days are numbered even before we were born. I’m curious whether the length of our lives has already been pre-determined according to this verse.

Pastor Doug: Psalm 139:16, “Your eyes saw my substance being yet unformed and Your book they’re all written. The day is fashioned for me as yet there were none of them.” I think what the Lord is simply saying here is that God is aware of all that we’re going to do. We can’t do anything that’s going to surprise Him. But I don’t believe that the Lord is like a big Marionette Operator in the sky who is pulling the strings and making everybody do what He wants us to do. That sort of hits the picture of the Greeks had of the gods—there was manipulating humans for their entertainment.

The Lord knows and, I mean, He even told Jeremiah, “While you were in the womb, I called you to be a prophet.”

Steve: Right.

Pastor Doug: And you know, to keep balance, I do think there’s cases where God intervenes. But there’s usually circumstances connected where there’s some choice and it might even be the choice of the parents. You know, John the Baptist’s parents were seeking after God, obeying the Lord, praying for a child, and God gave them a child spirit-filled. I don’t believe that would have happened if they hadn’t made those choices.

Steve: Right. What the word in that verse seems to imply though, I mean, I’m using NIV by the way. And it says, “All the days were ordained for me,” or “written on Your book.” I don’t know if that’s, you know…

Pastor Doug: Well, I think it’s also saying that… you remember in Psalms? David said, you know, “You’ve appointed us three score and ten, and if by reason of strength, they be four score…”

Steve: Right.

Pastor Doug: “…there’s still sorrow and travail,” that’s the average lifespan. But nothing surprises God, you agree with that. God knows everything.

Steve: Sure. Alright, well… alright, thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Alright. Thank you.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call, Steve. Let’s go next to Corona, California. Lewis is listening on the Internet. Welcome, Lewis!

Lewis: Hello, Pastors.

Pastor Dick: Good evening.

Lewis: Basically, I had a question with Bible Scripture in general. They say that the Bible is a book—every other Scripture. And I’m trying to understand why were all these other Scriptures available?

Pastor Doug: What are the Scriptures would you be talking about besides the Bible?

Lewis: Well, from other religions. Other religions use, you know…

Pastor Doug: Like the Qur’an and the Bhagavad Gita and…

Lewis: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Okay. I see what you’re saying.

Lewis: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Well, obviously, the Muslims do not believe that the Bible is above the Qur’an. And if you talk to Hindus, they’re not going to believe that their holy writings are beneath the Bible. And so, every religion believes that their sacred writings are superior. I’m coming from the perspective, personally, of somebody who searched through many of these Eastern religions before I became a Christian. A matter of fact, the last thing I wanted to do was become a Christian because my background is Jewish and we thought Christians were the problems of the Jewish people.

But as I looked at the actual writings of the Bible, in my opinion, they were so far superior to the others I have read, namely, for one thing, the prophecies and the teachings of Jesus. He is the most quoted Person who’s ever lived! And has had, you know, I think the most profound influence. Even Muhammad quotes Jesus. So, you know, you could look at all the sacred writings in the world and none of them are as old and enduring as the Bible. The Bible, of course, started about 3,500 BC—the first books were written. And they have survived all this time. All history seems to be dated from Jesus’ birth. So you look at the impact of the Bible in the world, its accuracy in predicting world events and I don’t think there’s any equal.

Lewis: Alright. Sounds good!

Pastor Doug: We’ve got a book we’ll send you that it’s free if you’d like it, Lewis. It’s actually the first study in a series of Amazing Facts study guide and it’s a four-color, illustrated study on the Bible and it’s called, “Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” If you will call the resource number and tell them you’d like the first Bible study, “Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” we’ll send it to you.

Lewis: Sure.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call, Lewis. That number is 1-800-835-6747. And just ask for “Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” and it’s the first of the Bible study lessons and we’ll send it out to you.

Pastor Doug, we have about 30 seconds left.

Pastor Doug: That’s a good time before our break to tell you to check again on the Internet at not only but if you’d like to sign up online for the Bible studies, go to—if you type in “Bible University,” you’ll get there still. And take the free online Bible study course. It’s also an advanced course if you’d like to better understand the books of Daniel and Revelation, try it out! We’ll be right back.


Pastor Dick: Welcome back to Bible Answers Live with Doug Batchelor! Because this is a pre-recorded broadcast of our Sunday night program, call from 7 to 8 P.M. Pacific Time on Sundays with your Bible-related questions. Receive clear, practical answers from the Bible about prophecy, doctrine, biblical principles. Call 800-GOD-SAYS, 800-463-7297. Now, join us as we open our Bibles for more Bible answers live with author and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Doug: Welcome back and for those who may have just tuned in, this is Bible Answers Live. It’s a live, interactive Bible study you’re hearing on your station. If you’d like to call in with a Bible question, then pick up the phone and dial 800-GOD-SAYS, 800-463-7297. We still have one or two lines open, Pastor Dick.

Pastor Dick: We do.

Pastor Doug: But we’ll try and get through as many as we can so let’s get right to the phone.

Pastor Dick: Let’s get right through them, alright! We want to start with Beth in Mount Vernon, Ohio. Good evening, Beth!

Beth: Good evening, Pastor Dick and Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: And your question.

Beth: Well, I’ve really enjoyed… I believe Amazing Facts published a little book that Steve Wohlberg had done about Harry Potter and I really truly appreciate it because financially, I wasn’t able to get the book and study it for myself. I was just struggling with what’s out there now called, “Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe” by C.S. Lewis. And I just wanted to kind of get your take biblically how you felt about that compared to Harry Potter.

Pastor Doug: Well, first of all, I personally don’t go to the theater.

Beth: I don’t, either.

Pastor Doug: If there ever is what you call a “good movie”…

Beth: Right.

Pastor Doug: …that comes out, you know, you can save a lot of money. If you just wait and [laughing] for your family.

Beth: Exactly.

Pastor Doug: But I wouldn’t put C.S. Lewis in the same category as Ralyn? I can’t even remember her name, the author of the Harry Potter…

Beth: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: …Potter books. One is dealing very exclusively with, you know, the powers of witchcraft and wizardry. The Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis was a brilliant Christian-Theologian, more of a philosopher, even…

Beth: That’s what I understood, yes.

Pastor Doug: And he wrote the story to introduce his grandchildren to… it was like an allegory of, you know, spiritual things. That doesn’t mean it’s inspired and it doesn’t mean it’s all good.

Beth: Right.

Pastor Doug: Pilgrim’s Progress is an allegory—it’s a great book.

Beth: It’s fabulous book!

Pastor Doug: And it uses some… what’s the word for it? It uses some of the English giants and dragons sort of symbols to teach its allegories. But whenever Hollywood gets a hold of anything, they seem to accentuate the worst part of it.

Beth: Yes.

Pastor Doug: I mean, even Hollywood gets a hold of the Bible story.

Beth: Oh, yes! [Laughing]

Pastor Doug: And you won’t recognize it when it comes out the other side. They’ll take, you know, Solomon and Bathsheba and they have a toward affair according to Hollywood…

Beth: Yes.

Pastor Doug: …it doesn’t say that in the Bible.

Beth: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: They’ve got Moses having an affair with the Pharaoh’s wife. I mean, you know, so what Disney’s going to do with this, I have no idea. I just… I don’t recommend movies. I just want to put this quite in the same category as Harry Potter, I think. It’s pretty diabolical.

Beth: Absolutely. My children attend public school and even though they weren’t made to read Harry Potter, which I would have forbade, they are suggested reading the Chronicles of Narnia and I just, you know, I just want to kind of in a biblical look.

Pastor Doug: That’s interesting! That’s interesting! A public school would do that because it is very much a—it is an allegory with Christian, a lot of imagery in that.

Beth: Well, my… yes, my youngest son said, “Mom, you know, I started to kind of reading a little bit of it and the Lion really pull me that that was Jesus.” And I was flabbergasted so I thought, well, I would stay off and kind of get your idea on it. I appreciate you taking the call.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. Well, you better let the Holy Spirit guide you on that one.

Beth: Absolutely!

Pastor Doug: I don’t recommend anything coming out of Hollywood or Disney. But because Disney does… most of what Disney does is very spiritualistic and stuff.

Beth: Yes.

Pastor Dick: You know, I think your kids are going to be under a lot of pressure from their peers to go see it when it comes out next week or this week, or whenever it’s coming.

Beth: I’m not even sure.

Pastor Dick: But I might suggest that you see it first, you know. Just be very careful.

Beth: I can’t… both my husband and I are trying to do that anyway.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Beth: But…

Pastor Doug: Well, hope that helps a little…

Beth: …if you or Steve want to get to write a book on it, that’s be great [laughing].

Pastor Doug: Hey, I’ll pass it on to Steve [laughing] because he needs a Narnia book.

Beth: [Laughing] Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: God bless.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call. Let’s go next to Dallas, Texas and talk with Rex who is listening on 600AM. Rex, welcome to the program!

Rex: Yes. I’m very pleased and thankful. I’ve heard your program quite now and that saying that pleases me so much is that answered question, Jesus was always subject to questions and some of the greatest men suggest that we preach from answer… Jesus answering questions.

Pastor Doug: Well, how can we help tonight?

Rex: Well, the thing about wine. The Scripture that confuses me is the one where God told Ezra, “A certain time that you come up to Jerusalem for the feast,” sorry, “the feast, you take one of your tithe and spend it on whatsoever you desire or crave for, even for strong drink—wine and strong drink.” So, that Scripture, I can’t cite it but it’s in the book of Leviticus, says that God gave them permission to drink strong drink—fermented wine.

Now, there’s no inconsistency in God’s moral standards. He doesn’t say you can commit a little bit of fornication…

Pastor Doug: Right. Well, let me tell you what I… let me quote the verse I think you’re talking about.

Rex: Okay.

Pastor Doug: In Deuteronomy 12:15.

Rex: Yeah, there it is.

Pastor Doug: It says, “Notwithstanding, thou mayest kill and eat the flesh and all that…” let me see here. Oh, that’s not the one. Here, I’m sorry. It’s Deuteronomy 14:26.

Rex: Yes.

Pastor Doug: “And thou shalt bestow thy money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after; for ox and sheep, for wine or for strong drink.” Now, let me explain that. The word “strong” there doesn’t always mean alcoholic. That same word “strong” can mean “wine” or “concentrated drink.”

Have you ever tasted, Rex, orange juice before you added enough water? Concentrated orange juice?

Rex: Oh, yeah.

Pastor Doug: And it’s strong. And they used to evaporate the wine—the grape juice—they would concentrate it and then they travel with it like that because it was lighter. And he’s talking about those who come to the feasts; they bring this tithe with them that you’re talking about; they would carry their wine syrup—it’s like a grape juice syrup—they would reconstitute it and they call it “strong drink.” It’s just like we say, orange juice concentrate. And it was not fermented. God would never recommend that because in the other places, He says, “Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging.” And He’s using the term in the context there of alcoholic.

Rex: Well, see, people that already put this argument now would say that’s when you use it temperately that Solomon is saying that it’s raging and it’s…

Pastor Doug: Right. Well, you know, when…

Rex: …a terrible thing.

Pastor Doug: By the way, we’ll send you a copy of the free book that we have—it goes along with this—if you just call the resource number. But one of the dangers of telling people a little bit of wine is okay, Pastor Dick, is that one out of seven people that drinks becomes an alcoholic and so…

Pastor Dick: That’s right.

Pastor Doug: …it is the most destructive drug in our culture. I mean, we can… there’s a poll, there’s a cloud of evil connected with fermented drink, alcohol. And how a Christian or what degree a Christian can support that is mystery to me. I don’t know how they can support it at all.

Pastor Dick: I don’t know either, Pastor Doug, and as you suggested earlier, lots of people who have come to the Lord have a relationship with Jesus Christ but have had an experience with alcohol in their past are not about ready to tell you that it’s okay to have just a little bit because they know…

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Pastor Dick: …that it’s not okay to have just a little bit.

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Pastor Dick: You know, I’m one [laughing]. It is not okay.

Pastor Doug: Me too [laughing].

Pastor Dick: Just leave it where it is…

Pastor Doug: I used to drink lots of wine and so, I remember. Thank you, Rex.

Pastor Dick: Rex, appreciate the call.

Pastor Doug: We’ll send you the free book tonight.

Pastor Dick: Let’s go to Robert in Long Island, New York who is listening on WMCA. Hello, Robert!

Robert: Good evening, Pastor Doug and Pastor Dick. How are you?

Pastor Dick: Good. Welcome.

Robert: Okay. I’m very intrigued about the prophetic book, notably, Daniel and Revelation. Well, tonight, my question is… the other night I was looking at a study on the Antichrist and when it came to Daniel 11:37, I was so… what do you call it? Amazed or intrigued. Okay, the part of the section where it says, “Neither shall it be regarded, God of his fathers, nor the desire of woman.” Now, based on that, is it spiritual then to say that homosexuality is the spirit of Antichrist?

Pastor Doug: Well, I’ve never heard it used that way. The scholars that I have read dealing with Daniel 11:37…

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: …have looked at what happened to the church during the Dark Ages where the priests were forbidden to marry.

Robert: Oh, okay.

Pastor Doug: And people who went into the priesthood, they did not regard the desire of women. Every man is born, if he’s healthy…

Robert: Right.

Pastor Doug: …with a pre-programmed desire for women.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Doug: That’s why the Bible says it’s not good for man to be alone.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Doug: But then, the church began to say, “You know, you should live a celibate life,” and so some have wondered if this verse is for telling the medieval church that did not regard the desire of women. Even though the Bible… nowhere does the Bible say that apostles can’t marry—Peter was married.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Doug: So, you know, it’s a strange teaching.

Robert: Yeah. But you would say that this prophecy was already fulfilled when it comes to that section?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, but you brought out a point that I don’t want to discount it. I do think that disregarding the design of God…

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: …which would include men forbidden to marry, or men lusting after other men.

Robert: Right.

Pastor Doug: And I don’t want to be critical—I think we all know that in the churches where men are not allowed to marry, there’s often a lot of sexual scandal…

Robert: Yes, that’s true.

Pastor Doug: …with either other men or children, or something. And so, this verse can be interpreted in that context as well.

Robert: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Hey, good question.

Robert: First, I came upon that Scripture and I was like very intrigued about it.

Pastor Doug: Have you ever seen the book by Uriah Smith called, “Daniel and the Revelation?”

Robert: I heard about it but I’ve never gotten it.

Pastor Doug: You should… I think you can order that at the Amazing Facts website. It’s not a free book but it’s certainly worthwhile and I highly recommend it because he goes in detail into these verses in Daniel 11.

Robert: Okay. That’s good.

Pastor Doug: Thank you very much, Robert. God bless you.

Robert: Okay. Thank you, have a good night!

Pastor Doug: You too.

Pastor Dick: Appreciate the call, Robert. Let’s go next to Poplar Bluff, Missouri, Pastor Doug. Laurie is listening on KYHO. Good evening, Laurie!

Laurie: Hello. My question is a little bit morbid. It’s concerning the Second Resurrection. The dead come up in the Second Resurrection like they went down into the grave?

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Laurie: Okay. What if you signed the back of your driver’s license and you donate your eyes then does that mean you will come up blind?

Pastor Doug: Good question. And you know what, I’m just going to have to tell you that… well, let me tell you what the Bible says. In Revelation 20, it talks about two separate resurrections—the resurrection of the just or the blessed, and then it says, “The rest of the dead,” this is verse 5, “live not again until the thousand years are finished.” Well, if the dead in Christ rise when Jesus comes, who are the rest of the dead? That’s the wicked. There’s no other alternative.

When Jesus said, “The hour is coming which all that hear the voice… all that are in the grave will hear His voice. They that have done good, the resurrection of life; they that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation.” Two resurrections. So the question is, of course, the righteous come out of the grave with glorified bodies. What about the wicked? What if you donated your organs? Are you going to come up heartless [laughing]?

Laurie: [Laughing]

Pastor Doug: You know, or eyeless or lungless, or you know, whatever… you know, the only thing I can surmise is that God is going to reassemble the wicked however He needs to so that they’re aware of what’s going on for that judgment. I don’t think that… I mean, you know, people could be dismembered or some folks have died in the explosions and you start trying to figure out how He’s going to find all the pieces and put them back together. That’s not a problem for God. He’s going to reassemble them so that they’re able to function and they can understand what’s going on. I don’t believe that you’re going to have a lot of partially assembled people in the resurrection who, you know, are missing different parts. You know what I’m saying?

Laurie: Well, I’m going to play [inaudible 00:44:20] in the first resurrection.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, me too. Let’s hope so.

Laurie: I think that was the question. That was the question that I have never been able to answer for.

Pastor Doug: Well, you know, you’re not the only one that asked me that because the Bible is clear that the righteous get their new bodies and everyone has wondered, what about the wicked? I mean, do they get glorified bodies and they get thrown in the Lake of Fire? That wouldn’t make sense. So, I think He just puts them back together so they know what’s going on.

Pastor Dick: Because Gog and Magog are going to be running around bumping into each other…

Pastor Doug: Because they can’t see [laughing].

Pastor Dick: …yes [laughing] the whole city.

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Laurie: Or if they’ve had an extremely bad burn that resulted in death and, you know, that’s the most severe pain, and to be resurrected and to continue where they left off in that kind of pain, you know…

Pastor Doug: There wouldn’t be necessary because they’re going to get their punishment when God… all the wicked are cast in the Lake of Fire and so I don’t think He needs to exacerbate that during the time of judgment. And don’t forget, Satan assembles the wicked to try to attack the City of God. If they’re all so feeble…

Laurie: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. It tells us that he—and this is also same chapter. You know what, we could send you our lesson on Revelation chapter 20. It’s dealing with the Devil’s Vacation and there’s a little more information in there if you’d like to get a copy of that, Laurie. You call Amazing Facts and ask for our lesson, it’s on “A Thousand Years of Peace.” “A Thousand Years of Peace,” we’ll send that to you free and there’s more on the millennium and the Second Resurrection.

Pastor Dick: Laurie, that number is 1-800-835-6747, “A Thousand Years of Peace” is the name of the lesson and we’ll send it out to you if you call tonight and ask for it or you can go to the website,, and you can find it there as well.

Pastor Doug: Just read it right online.

Pastor Dick: That’s right. 1-800-835-6747 or Pastor Doug, let’s go to Modoc County, California. Crystal is listening on the Internet. Welcome, Crystal!

Crystal: Hello?

Pastor Dick: Hello.

Crystal: Is it right for a Christian to sell food including unclean meat such as pork and shrimp?

Pastor Doug: Is it okay for a Christian to sell it? Now, of course, people who listen to this program know that we believe the Bible still teaches Christians should not eat the foods that God calls unclean. And that would including shellfish and pork and what a lot of Jews understand as “un-kosher.” What about selling it? Well, you could rephrase that question. If it’s wrong for a Christian to drink alcohol or use drugs, what about selling it? If something is bad, I don’t think you’d want to be involved in selling it. Now, I know that creates a little dilemma because there are some Christians who might work at some mega supermarket where everything under the sun goes across the conveyor belt and…

Pastor Dick: Or some Christians might have their own little business somewhere and…

Pastor Doug: Yeah. I think that you could have a moral problem there, Crystal. It would be a challenge. I would feel uncomfortable. I know that… I got some Christian friends and they were in a… working in a drugstore and they had to sell cigarettes and that just bothered them so much they had to go work somewhere else.

You know, in our church, part of the baptismal vow says that we will not work in the production, manufacture, or sale or alcohol and tobacco—and I would think unclean foods would be included in that. So it could be a problem. Yup, it tells you in Leviticus 8… I’m sorry, Leviticus 11:8, “You shall not eat their flesh. You shall not even touch their carcass.” So I guess we got to handle it through the surround wrap. [Laughing]

Pastor Dick: Crystal, does that help?

Crystal: Yeah.

Pastor Dick: Okay. Thanks for the call. Bye. Let’s talk next to…

Pastor Doug: I know where Modoc County is.

Pastor Dick: Yeah, I do, too. Let’s talk to Daniel who is in Cookeville, Tennessee. Good evening, Daniel!

Daniel: Good evening.

Pastor Dick: Welcome to the program! Your question please.

Daniel: Yes. My question is… I have…

Pastor Dick: Daniel…

Daniel: Yes.

Pastor Dick: …I’m sorry, would you turn your radio down just a little bit?

Pastor Doug: There’s a time delay and they’re confusing…

Daniel: Okay. My question is I have a bad problem with my mouth, saying bad things to my coworkers and I was wondering how I could control my temper by flying off the handle.

Pastor Doug: Well, the Bible tells us in Matthew chapter 12 that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Daniel: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And so, when you ask God to change your heart, it will invariably your words. Now, like you, Daniel, I grew up with an extremely foul vocabulary. I mean, my mother, my father, my grandparents just, you know… I knew all the words.

Daniel: Right.

Pastor Doug: And when I became a Christian, I was convicted that it was not appropriate. I’m not just talking about specifically using God’s name in vain but all the other words. And I found that when I was upset, it became a little easier. I asked God to not only forgive me but to change my heart. And you know, the promise is He’ll create a new heart within you. And if our words proceed from our heart, when the heart is new, the words are different.

Daniel: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And so, if you pray and say, “Lord, cleanse my heart.” And you’ll notice that when you get upset, which will still happen, that you’ll be tempted to say those things and the Holy Spirit will all of a sudden remind you that that’s not appropriate and He’ll stop you before the words come out. He’ll give you the power to choose not to say those things, and then you must choose. But it happened to me. And by the grace of God, He, you know, saved me from that for 30 years now.

Pastor Dick: Amen. Amen. Those words pop up in my mind every once in a while. You know, when you can’t help but hear them.

Pastor Doug: There’s another verse in the conversion of Isaiah.

Pastor Dick: Yes.

Pastor Doug: He said, “I am a man of unclean lips…”

Pastor Dick: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: “…and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips.”

Pastor Dick: Right.

Pastor Doug: And the Bible says when he confessed his sin, God sent a coal from His altar and touched his lips and cleansed him.

Pastor Dick: Amen.

Pastor Doug: And so, you might be praying, Daniel, that God will take that coal from His altar as in Isaiah chapter 6 and touch your lips and cleanse you from those words.

Pastor Dick: Amen.

Pastor Doug: He’ll do that for you.

Pastor Dick: Yes, He will.

Pastor Doug: Alright?

Daniel: I’d also like to know how I could get that free book on alcohol because my cousin’s alcoholic and I might try to help him.

Pastor Doug: Absolutely!

Pastor Dick: Call that number, 1-800-835-6747; 835-6747, Daniel.

Daniel: Alright.

Pastor Doug: And we’ll send it out to you.

Pastor Dick: Okay? It’s a free…

Daniel: Thank you.

Pastor Dick: Alright.

Pastor Doug: You’re welcome.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call. He was listening on WJCR and we got a lot of callers from that station. We’re glad to hear from them. Let’s go next, Pastor Doug, to… we want to go to Wooster, Massachusetts and talk with Georgina who is listening on WNED. Welcome, Georgina!

Georgina: Hello?

Pastor Dick: Yes, good evening.

Georgina: Yeah, good evening. How are you doing?

Pastor Dick: Good. And your question please.

Georgina: Yeah, my question is when God gives you a prophecy that your cry has been heard and He will do whatever you’ve ask Him to do it, my God is saying that you should continue with your prayer and He will do it. I just don’t get understanding of that. Can you please elaborate on that?

Pastor Doug: Well, there is the example of Hannah in the Bible who was crying before the Lord at the temple. And Eli, the high priest, said to her, “Go in peace. God is going to grant you the petition of your heart.” The specific prayer in Hannah’s heart was that she might have a child—more specifically, a son. And she believed that the prophecy of Eli would come true and it did. And God blessed her not only with that boy but with many others.

But sometimes you got to keep praying. You know, it tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:17, “Pray without ceasing. And in everything give thanks.” So you got to sometimes keep praying.

Georgina: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Alright?

Georgina: Okay. Alright. I’m all set then.

Pastor Doug: Alright, thanks. God bless. I hope that helps a little bit.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call, Georgina. We want to go next, Pastor Doug, to Sam in Dallas, Texas listening on KSKY. Welcome, Sam!

Sam: Good evening, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Evening! Your question.

Sam: Thank you so much for Revive ’05.

Pastor Doug: Well, I’m glad you enjoyed it.

Sam: It was such a blessing. Can I know how to get the tips of the… the whole tips of the Revival ’05?

Pastor Doug: Yes. And for our friends who are listening, Sam’s asking about a revival series we just did in Texas for 10 days—a specific series for Christians about getting a new beginning and revival. For one thing, you can simply go to the Amazing Facts website and order them there.

Sam: Okay.

Pastor Doug: The other thing, you can listen to the program for free. We want the word to get out there and if anyone wants to listen and they’ve got a decent Internet connection, you just go to

Sam: Okay.

Pastor Doug: and you can listen online.

Sam: Okay.

Pastor Doug: I’ve even posted my sermon notes up there if people want the references. But you must also have a question.

Sam: Yes. The question I actually have is Revelation 22:2.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Sam: That’s part of the question of the verse which talks about the leaves or the tree of the… of life—the tree of life—is for healing of the nations. I don’t know what…

Pastor Doug: What are we going to need healing from in heaven?

Sam: Aha! When we are in heaven, there is no disease, no sickness?

Pastor Doug: Right.

Sam: So what will that be for?

Pastor Doug: Well, first of all, it says there in Revelation 2, it’s for the healing of the nations. You notice it doesn’t say healing of the disease or healing of the sickness—healing of the nations. And some have wondered when we get to heaven and we all gather under the tree of life, all of the national differences that separate us are going to be healed and we become a new nation—one people. So that was one interpretation, but in Revelation he’s quoting from Ezekiel 47:1 and he talks about this vision where he actually sees the City of God there in the vision.

And, let me see here. I think it’s in verse 8? Yeah, let me see here. It talks about the waters that go out into the desert and speaking about the tree of life and the river of life there. And that it’s for healing. I’m looking for that there in… I know that it’s also in Ezekiel. Oh, here we go! Ezekiel 47:12, “And by the river upon the bank, thereof, on this side and that side shall grow all trees for meat whose leaves shall not fade neither the fruit be consumed; it will bring forth its fruit according to its months and its fruits shall be for meat and the leaf for medicine.”

Now, that doesn’t specifically call it the tree of life there but many have noticed a very strong parallel between Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation chapter 22. So, it is something of a mystery. And you know, something else to consider—Adam was probably much taller—we know we live longer than we do. When we get to heaven with our glorified bodies, it says in Malachi, “We’ll go forth and grow up.” We may continue to grow until the fullness of stature…

Sam: Okay.

Pastor Doug: …as we eat from the fruit and leaves of the tree of life.

Sam: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Hope that helps a little bit. Oh, you can tell from the music…

Sam: Yes, it does.

Pastor Doug: …and by the way…

Sam: Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: …we’ll send you our free lesson if you ask for it on heaven. We’ve got a lesson on “Revelation: Space City,” and it talks about the tree of life in that lesson. We’ll be happy to send it to you. If you called, friends, and we did not get your call tonight, then please forgive us. Give us a call a little bit early next week and we’ll try and put you on first. Or if you want to stay on the line for a moment, we’ll try and take a couple of questions off.

Keep in mind that this is a faith ministry. We know that you’ve heard this little announcement a thousand times at the end of various radio programs and only one in a thousand actually does anything about it. But maybe the Holy Spirit will touch your heart and drop us a line. You can even donate online. This is a faith ministry and we need your help to stay on the air. We do it because we want you to know the truth and Jesus is the Truth and it’s all about Him. He’ll set you free! God bless, ‘til next week.


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