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Poon Lim - 133 Days Alone At Sea

Date: 04/30/2006 
In November 1942 in the middle of World War 11 a 25 year old Chinese seaman named Poon Lim was working as a steward on a British merchant ship called the S.S. Den La Mont. After leaving Capetown the vessel was torpedoed by a German U boat near the coast of South Africa.
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Hello friends this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In November 1942 in the middle of World War 11 a 25 year old Chinese seaman named Poon Lim was working as a steward on a British merchant ship called the S.S. Den La Mont. After leaving Capetown the vessel was torpedoed by a German U boat near the coast of South Africa. As the boat was sinking Poon Lim grabbed a life jacket and jumped overboard just as the ship’s boilers exploded. Poon Lim floated around the Atlantic Ocean naked for about 2 hours and then he spotted a life boat and managed to pull himself aboard. It is the beginning of one of the most amazing sagas of survival at sea ever recorded.

He was thankful for the meager supplies he found in the little life boat. A canvas sail, some chocolate, a bag of sugar lumps, some flares, a jug of water, a can of hard biscuits and a flashlight. He came quite close to being rescued several times. Seven days into his ordeal he tried frantically to get the attention of a ship that passed by, but the ship did just that; it passed by. Then he spotted seven U.S. Navy patrol planes flying overhead and he sent up several flares, but they did not see him. Then to make matters worse a German U boat spotted him. But, they chose to leave him to fate rather than rescuing him or killing him.

Poon Lim quickly realized that he was going to be out at sea for quite a while. He could have chosen to give up and die, but instead he decided to use his skills and all his limited supplies to endure and stay alive.

He rationed himself a biscuit and a few mouthfuls of water each day. He made a fish hook out of the flashlight spring using the hemp rope for a fish line and a biscuit for bait. When he caught a fish he cut it open with a knife that he fashioned from a tin can and dried the fish on a rope over the raft. He swam daily to keep his muscles fit and keep his body clean while watching for sharks and staying tethered to the little boat. He stored rain water in a sail and caught sea gulls with his bare hands. Once after one of the many storms that fouled his water and ruined his supplies; Lynn barely managed to catch a bird and drank its’ blood to survive.

Another time he hooked a thirty pound shark and ate the liver. On April 5, 1943 when he staggered ashore in Brazil he had lost twenty pounds. In all Poon Lim had survived a record of 133 days alone out on the Atlantic. He said I hope no one will ever have to break my record. Later it was arranged for Poon Lim to work with the U.S. Navy on survival techniques and for his service in 1945 by a special act in Congress he was made a permanent resident of the United States. Jesus said speaking of last days that he that shall endures until the end shall be saved and stay tuned friends we are going to bring you more as “Amazing Facts “ brings you this edition of “Bible Answers Live”.

[PROGRAM INTRODUCTION]

Pastor Doug: Friends we are so thankful that you are tuning in to a fresh edition of “Bible Answers Live”. If this is the first time for you listening to the broadcast; it is what it says. We are a live, International and interactive Bible study. And you can help us by praying and listening as we search the Bible for answers that people may differ on. You can call in with a Bible question 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297 in North America the call is toll free. We still have lines open and now is a good time to pick up your phone and call. And you can also take advantage of the free resources that are available during the broadcast. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Ross: And my name is Jean Ross. Good evening Pastor Doug and listening friends.

Pastor Doug: It is good to have you back from Africa. How was your trip?

Pastor Ross: It was very good and the Lord blessed, but it is always nice to come back home.

Pastor Doug: I’ll bet because that is a long trip half way across the world.

Pastor Ross: Well before we get into our program and our questions this evening. Let’s just start with a word of prayer. Dear Father once more we ask that your Holy Spirit would be with us this evening. We know that when we open up the Bible that we need the Holy Spirit to guide us and give us understanding. So be with Pastor Doug as myself as we take the questions and be with those who call and those who listen. For this we ask in Jesus’ name. Amen

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Ross: The amazing fact that you started the program with is indeed amazing 133 days alone at sea. That takes a tremendous amount of endurance and just for somebody being alone that long.

Pastor Doug: Yes not only the physical challenges, but the exposure to the elements, the storms that could have easily swallowed him up out there in the Atlantic and but, the isolation and the loneliness for that long some people have given up hope and just jumped overboard. Many accounts of people who may have survived physically, but just the desperation of the situation; they gave up. But, he would not give up. He just used every bit of his wits and resources. And I think the Lord blesses perseverance and determination and tenacity and endurance. Jesus said in Matthew 24: 14 that speaking of the last days “He that endures to the end will be saved.”

And that is a very important verse because everybody knows and almost all Christians agree that the Bible clearly teaches there is a great tribulation in association with the last days. Where that tribulation falls is where Christians differ on. Some such as those behind the microphones right now; we believe that the tribulation takes place just prior to the Lord’s coming. And that’s why Christ says he that endures until the end will be saved.

And again the Bible says all that live Godly will suffer persecution and it is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of God. And it is not that God saves us from tribulation, but He saves us through it. His church is purified through the fiery trials. And that’s when we are the brightest and best witness is in the darkness. And so in Daniel Chapter 12 speaking of the great time of troubles such as there never has been at that time; my people are delivered. And then there are many beautiful people who believe that the church is raptured away before the tribulation.

But, that I think is a dangerous mistake because you are almost better off bracing yourself and having faith to say you know I need to be prepared by God’s grace to endure. Christians who think that we are just going to float up on a vapor before things get tough; they will not be prepared. And that is why Peter says do not be amazed at the fiery trials that will try your faith as though some strange thing is happening. Many Christians are going to say well this is strange we didn’t hear this in the left behind movies. We didn’t hear this from our pulpits we thought we weren’t going to be here for this.

And yet I always say to people that the seven last plagues are the time of trouble; the tribulation. They are very similar to the ten plagues of Egypt that fell on them. The question is, were God’s people in Egypt when the plagues fell? And the answer is yes they were. He saved them through the plagues and protected them from the plagues. But, they were in Egypt and the church will be in the world when this tribulation comes and that’s why we need to endure to the end to be faithful.

Now some people may have questions about the subject of the rapture and the tribulation and we have a free offer. If you are studying this subject and it is also a great resource for anyone teaching a Bible class or a study? Ask for this resource.

Pastor Ross: The booklet that we have for our free offer is for tonight and called “Anything but Secret” and it deals with the second coming of Jesus. The tribulation and the rapture and you can get that for free if you will just call our resource line at 1-800-835-6747. Again that is 1-800-835-6747 and the free offer is “Anything but secret” giving us what we need to endure to the end when Jesus comes again.

Pastor Doug: You know we have another happy announcement about another station. I have—it has been so long I added up the stations we had an Amazing Facts board meeting today and I was reading through the media report and it said we have over 225 stations and I was still thinking it was 175. You can tell I was not paying very close attention. And this is another station 3ABN affiliate and KCAN 103.1 FM in Needles, California. I know where Needles is. It is probably getting warm down there right now about this time of year. Welcome and if we get any calls from our listeners there on 3ABN radio in Needles we will try to put you online so that we can inaugurate that station.

Pastor Ross: We always begin the program with some internet questions.

Question: Does Jesus say there will be world peace anywhere before He returns?

Pastor Doug: No and as a matter of fact He says the opposite. Some people think that the great millennium is going to bring in great peace, but they are really not reading their Bibles correctly. Jesus said in Matthew 10: 34 and numerous similar places “Think not that I am come to send peace on the earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man in variance against his father and the daughter against the mother and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law and a man’s foes will be they of his own household.” And similarly Paul warned to be careful of people who say that this religion brings peace in the earth. Christianity is a religion that is often followed by conflict because there is a controversy between Christ and the devil. “But, when they say…” and this is 1Thessolonians 5: 3”…For when they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them as travail upon a woman with child.” Meaning and in other places He talks about—warns against false peace.

Pastor Ross: Mathew 24: 7 Jesus said, 7 “For when Nation shall rise against Nation, Kingdom against Kingdom; there will be famines, pestilence, earthquakes in diverse places, all of these are the beginning of sorrows.”

Pastor Doug: Right now after the Prince of Peace comes there will be peace for the redeemed. We will live and reign with Christ and that will be a time of tremendous peace. But, not before Jesus comes.

Pastor Ross: Absolutely. The next question just so that our listeners know; that these are questions that come in from those who are listening.

Question: On “Bible Answers Live” you mentioned Pastor Doug that Jesus drank water during His 40 day fast. Where in the Bible does it say that?

Pastor Doug: Well it doesn’t say that and we are assuming it was a real fast because it says that He was hungry if you read in Mathew 4: 2 “And when He had fasted 40 days…” Now this sounds like a fast that He chose. “…and 40 nights He was hungry.” Notice it doesn’t say He was thirsty. And fast is no food a typical fast so a pure fast was no food or water, but that never went beyond 3 days. Paul ate no food or water for 3 days. The Bible tells us that Ester said do not eat food or drink water because you’d die unless you are supernaturally sustained as Moses was on the mountain and Elijah was in the wilderness. But, when Jesus fasted He was hungry which means if He hadn’t brought water with Him He would have been thirsty. And 40 days no water you die. So nothing requires a fast not to have water.

Pastor Ross: Right and good point. Well let’s go to our phone lines and those of you—we still have a couple of phone lines open. If you’d like to call its 1-800-GOD-SAYS that’s 1-800-463-7297 and our first caller is Jody in Sacramento, California. Welcome to the program and listening on KFIA. Jody are you there?

Jody: Oh yes sorry I am day dreaming.

Pastor Ross: It’s alright and your question?

Jody: I would like to ask kind of an unusual question about trumpets in the last days. I would like to know if the trumpet of God in 1Thessolonians 4: 16 and the sound of a great trumpet in Matthew 24: 31 and the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15: 52 are those the same trumpets as when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet in Revelation 10:7?

Pastor Doug: Well let me the first three trumpets are synonymous with the resurrection trumpet that the Bible speaks of. The Lord will descend from heaven with a trump and the trumpet sound this is a blast. It is common in the military that people are awakened by revelry or a bugle and it goes all the way back to ancient armies and so; though this is a heavenly trumpet that awakens them. In Revelation Chapter 10: 7 “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he should begin to sound the mystery of God shall be finished as He has declared to His servants the prophets. I don’t think that is the same because there are six preceding trumpets.

In Revelation we find the mystery of that by comparing them with the seven trumpets that were blown by the priests when they took Jericho. In other words seven trumpets were blown before they took the Promised Land. And prior to our entering the Promised Land or heaven on earth here there is going to be seven trumpets that represent battles.

Let me share something with you Jody that an old evangelist shared with me and it always helped me. Revelation Chapters 2 & 3 talks about the seven churches. Then you have in Revelation 5 through 7 or so you have the seven seals and then you have the seven trumpets. Revelation Chapters 2 & 3 talks about the spiritual history of the church from the first to the second coming. There are the seven seals and the four horsemen of the apocalypse which are part of the history of the seven seals, which is the political history of the church from the first to the second coming. The seven trumpets represent something of the military and a conflict that the church is embroiled in between the first and the second coming.

Now that is not all of it, but that is one aspect that really matches up with what the Bible says and it is in the Old and New Testaments. I think it is the same trumpet you are reading about for the resurrection. What do you think Pastor Ross?

Pastor Ross: No I think you are absolutely correct Pastor Doug. They are referred to in 2 Thessalonians so I think it is that.

Pastor Doug: We are really talking about the final conflict rather than the final; the resurrection trumpet. Okay?

Jody: Okay and thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: Thanks for your call.

Pastor Ross: Thanks you for your call and our next caller is Marlene in Davenport, Iowa. I know where that is. Welcome to the program Marlene.

Marlene: Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thanks for your patience and your question?

Marlene: Will you tell me how did the belief of the purgatory start? Where does it come from?

Pastor Doug: Well that’s a good question.

Marlene: Who made it I mean?

Pastor Doug: The belief in purgatory you have obviously been reading the Bible and found that purgatory doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible. Purgatory come s form the same root word where we get purge. And it is talking about a fire that purges away any remnants of sin. And I am simplifying the doctrine here, but even to say that many of the orthodox churches, the Catholic church and others believe that saints may still have remnants of sin and so there can be no sin in heaven and even though they are saved they still need to go through a period of purging and for that they adopted the doctrine of purgatory and that I believe is a doctrine that was made to accommodate a flawed theology. It is not in the bible although they do attempt to use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to teach the doctrine of purgatory.

But, there really is no Scripture that teaches that once you’re saved you’re saved and the idea that we must suffer for our sins after we die it negates the suffering of Jesus. It makes it sound like that His substitute was incomplete. And either He saves us completely and we are covered by His blood or we’re guilty. There’s no in between. Purgatory sort of teaches that you’re almost saved, but you’re going to go through this little extra punishment of mini hell. It’s sort of like a little miniature hell in order to get you to heaven. But, the Bible doesn’t teach that and there are really serious theological problems with that in my opinion.

Marlene: Okay thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thank you and by the way Marlene we do have a lesson that talks about this a little bit. It talks about the punishment of the wicked and some of the misconceptions and it’s called “Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?” And if you would like a copy of that Pastor Ross will give you the number and ask for “Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?”

Pastor Ross: Let me give you that number Marlene. It is 1-800-835-6747 and the Amazing Facts study guide is called “Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?”

Pastor Doug: It’s free.

Pastor Ross: Yes it is free and just call that number and we will send it out to you. Our next caller is David listening from Victorville, California and listening on KEIT welcome to the program David.

David: Good evening Pastors how are you?

Pastor Doug: Good thank you for calling.

David: The question I have this evening is in regard to Ezekiel 38. I hear that this passage and this particular Chapter is dealing with the end of the world armies that are attacking Israel and things like that. And so Pastor I wanted your opinion.

Pastor Doug: I appreciate that and some of the people in our various churches believe that the references to Gog and Magog and it appears in Ezekiel 38 and I think you will also find it in Ezekiel 39 and then of course Revelation 20: 8 and maybe I will just go to Revelation and speaking of the time after the millennium during the resurrection of the wicked it says “And Satan is loosed from his prison and he will go forth to deceive the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth.” Now this is talking about nations all over the world; Gog and Magog so it I not any one nation. Hal Lindsey popularized the idea that somehow maybe Gog and Magog were talking about China and Russia. And in my opinion he developed some kind of a convoluted rationale for how those words can be misconstrued that way.

But, Gog and Magog if you go back to Genesis they were enemies of God’s people in antiquity. And here those prophets were using those names and inspiring John to view Gog and Magog as all the lost enemies of God’s people that have followed the devil. You’ll notice it says from the four corners of the earth you know this is a universal people it is not one nation. Now the word Magog means from the matrix or coming out of Gog so Gog and Magog means Gog and Magog or he children. That goes along with what you find in Babylon and her daughters. You know it was Herodotus and her daughter that got the head of John the Baptist. It was Jezebel and her daughter Athaliah that brought paganism into ancient Israel. And so it is just a continuation of that the enemies of God’s people and their children they are the wicked who try to attack the city of God and it says the numbers like the sand of the sea and that’s what you also find in Ezekiel that covered the earth like a cloud and it’s—and I think if you’ll look in Ezekiel 38: 2 it calls him the chief prince of Meshach and Tubal. Well Hal Lindsey says Meshach is Moscow. But, that is totally absurd because there was no Moscow and they had Meshach way back in the Old Testament. So you can look at these tribes as they appear in Genesis and by the way that is Genesis 10: 2 it talks about the sons of Gather and Noman and Magog. Okay?

David: Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Yes Genesis Chapter 10: 2 is the first reference to Magog.

David: Thank you so much Pastor.

Pastor Doug: You are welcome and good question.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Loretta listening from Savannah, Tennessee on WDNX welcome to the program. Loretta your question?

Loretta: Yes. Thank you Pastors. I have got a list of questions I’ve been working with this because I study, but I know I’ve only got about three minutes. I do see a couple I can ask and in Daniel what’s dung hill?

Pastor Doug: Well they used to have a garbage heap outside the city. And that is what they called it. Dung is a primitive word for animal manure.

Loretta: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And they also used to clean out their barns and make a big pile for the agriculture. I am just being very graphic with you I am sorry. But, that is exactly what it was.

Loretta: That’s fine.

Pastor Doug: We have another word for it, but that is what it was. It wasn’t pleasant and that is what Nebuchadnezzar threatened to do with the politicians.

Loretta: And my second question; in Genesis dukes are used to describe the descendents of Esau? Why aren’t they used to describe the descendents of Jacob?

Pastor Doug: Well do you know what the modern word would be for that would be chief. Matter of fact if you look in the New King James when you find the word duke—you’re looking there aren’t you? It’s an ancient English word for the word chief and the equivalent in our in our tongue today would be sheep’s. The descendents of Esau were a nomadic people and they had tribal chiefs or sheep’s and if you lock in the New King James it says and the chief of the sons of Esau. Chief that chief this it doesn’t say duke. When we think of duke we always think of royalty.

Loretta: Exactly.

Pastor Doug: And this has a different connotation to it today than it did in 1611.

Loretta: Thank you. Now my last question in Matthew when the people were given instructions to flee when they see the Roman army encompassing about for some reason the army retreats and they are able to leave. Now they are instructed to not go back and get their coat or their cloak or this or that.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Loretta: Now I understand that this didn’t take place for a couple of years.

Pastor Doug: It took place 40 years after Jesus made this prophecy.

Loretta: No I mean the time between when they retreated and when they actually came back to destroy the city.

Pastor Doug: I don’t know. Jean do you know what the time difference was between the times when Titus came back and to destroy the city?

Pastor Ross: Yes I think there was at least a year or two it was an interval of time.

Loretta: Yes and my question is why would they be instructed not to run back and get anything when they had a year to two to run and get their coat?

Pastor Doug: Well I would think that there was the risk they would get complacent and comfortable again and not know when the axe was going to fall. Because he was basically saying get out of there and don’t look back. You know I think Jesus is comparing it to the time of Lot when Lot’s wife looked back He was talking about their hearts still being in the city of destruction. .

Loretta: It was not so much a physical issue as a spiritual one.

Pastor Doug: yes he is basically saying get out of town because it is under a sentence.

Pastor Ross: And of course they didn’t know when the Romans would return.

Loretta: That’s true.

Pastor Ross: And there was a spirit of jubilance and victory in Jerusalem after they went out after the Romans retreated the Jewish warriors went out after them and got much gain and spoil and brought it back. They weren’t thinking much about the Romans coming back. They were out there rejoicing.

Loretta: Oh okay.

Pastor Doug: You know in addition if you look in Luke 21 He says, “Those that are in Judea flee unto the mountains.” And He talks about when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies. That Matthew 24 verse that we were just looking at is also talking about the last days. There’s a time when God’s people need to flee and I think it will be much more eminent that if they hesitate they when the window of opportunity arises they will be imprisoned and suffer. So you know what the other message is Pastor Ross when we’re called to follow Jesus; don’t look back.

Pastor Ross: That’s right it is not worth it. Do we have room for one more?

Pastor Doug: We can try.

Pastor Ross: Okay let’s see if we can squeeze in another one. Liley is listening from Toronto, Canada welcome to the program Liley and your question?

Liley: Hi I have a question and I have two, but if I can get one and this is my husband’s question he’s a new Christian. I know you have the Ten Commandment Days coming up and he was reading a book he received and he had a question on Exodus 20: 5. He was wondering why the third and fourth generation.

Pastor Doug: Good question. Yes in Exodus 20: 5 when he says that idolatry “I am a jealous God visiting the iniquities of the Fathers onto the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. But, showing mercy unto thousands of those that love me.” God does not punish children for the sins of the fathers except as the children imitate the sins of the fathers.

And typically what happens is the pattern of the parents is replicated by the children. I mean in our culture we know that alcoholics often give birth to alcoholics. And abusive parents often have abusive children because they have learned it and so the curse of that bad behavior seems to get into a cycle that lasts three or four generations. And that is something that even Sociologists have observed. And so when God said I am going to visit the iniquity unto the third and fourth generation what He means is if you disobey me in this respect you are going to pass this bad behavior onto your children and it could last generations. So I think that is what the Lord is saying here. And matter of fact God says I will not punish the son for the sins of the father or the father for the sins of the son and that is in Ezekiel Chapter 20 and Chapter 18 as well.

We are just taking a break friends; it doesn’t mean we are going away. If you would like to find out more about “Amazing Facts” we do have a virtual tree of life at our website. If you simply go to “Amazing Facts dot org” you’re going to see a plethora of study guides that are available to enhance your personal devotions and a lot of free things you can download. Some things you can order. You might just log onto “Amazing Facts dot org” and you will also find upcoming programs. We’ll be right back.

[COMMERCIAL BREAK]

Pastor Doug: That would be me and we would like to welcome you back to “Bible Answers Live” and if you do have any Bible questions we do have some phone lines open. It is a free phone call and the acronym is easy to remember 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297. Free phone call in North America and as I said I am Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Ross: I am Jean Ross. Pastor Doug there is something happening this month that you are very much aware of. It’s this whole Da Vinci Code movie that is coming out. There’s a lot of discussion about it and I guess the important thing about it is they make certain accusations about what the Bible says in relation to Mary and so on.

Pastor Doug: Yes I think there’s a minister who actually plays on the network or home station here that R.C. Stoll or something and he said basically the statements are blasphemous. And meaning that the suggestion that Jesus had Mary as a mistress or wife and they had a child together and that the New Testament has been totally re-written to cover it up and to alter the role of women. It is just a total broadside against the truth of the Bible and the purity and divinity of Christ. It is not a new thing. That many people in the secular and movie industry find it hard to believe that Christ could have lived a man to thirty-three and half years without being impure with the opposite sex. And I think the movie “The Last Temptation of Christ” also very well insinuated that Jesus had an affair with Mary and it is an old accusation that is baseless.

And for our friends this Da Vinci Code movie hate to almost tell you is going to come out quite a buzz and I do not recommend people go to see it. I think that we ought to avoid it and make a statement by our doing so. And not endorse it or support it or perpetuate it. But, there is something you can do and it is a book I wrote a couple of years ago. It was actually a best seller two years ago when it came out called “At Jesus’ Feet”. We have reprinted this book the first new printing this is a new edition 100,000 copies. And a beautiful book with a gold leaf cover and it’s called “The Truth about Mary Magdalene the Woman at Jesus’ Feet” and it goes through all of the Scriptural references about the relationship of Jesus and Mary. And it’s in a beautiful story form. Some people have even asked if they can take it as a script and make it a TV story because it is written where it is easy reading. But, it also shows where they had a pure relationship and Mary was His most devoted follower. It is a book that teaches good doctrinal truth and it is inspirational. This would be the perfect book to get in quantity and there’s a special website that is getting a lot of traffic and it is called easy to remember “Mary Truth dot com” right now while I am here in the studio. You’ll see that people can get these books in quantity they can get them to about a $dollar a piece. It is a full edition book not a little booklet. You can give it to people as they come out of the movie theater as a witnessing tool they will eat it up. Because they are going to go oh the truth about Mary this is the continuation about the Da Vinci Code and so if you’d like to capitalize on this opportunity it is a good way to not sit on the sidelines as Jesus is slandered. This is really a smear. We can do something.

Pastor Ross: Yes absolutely. Alright our next caller is Luche listening at JFK airport welcome to the program.

Luche: Hi how are you?

Pastor Ross: Good and your question?

Luche: I need a little insight onto 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4: 15 & 16 & 17 about the dead in Christ. And the teacher has given us one explanation and me and my brother we are feeling something else so I would like to see what you tell me and what do you feel about that verse? “The dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Pastor Doug: Alright Jesus tells us there are two distinct revelations. Jesus said the hour is coming which those that are in the grave will hear His voice. They that have done good the resurrection of life and they that have evil the resurrection of damnation. There are two separate resurrections. You get to Revelation 20 Luche and it tells us that the “Blessed and holy are they that have part in the first resurrection.” And it speaks of the rest of the dead don’t come forth until 1000 years are finished; two separate resurrections. Is that what you are asking about the two different resurrections or where the dead are now?

Luche: Yes well let me shut my window because a plane is landing. I don’t want o say what I feel because sometimes because I feel like I am saying more like what the teacher is saying than what God is telling me. But, or teachers basically saying is we got to believe the words of Christ that we die and hen judgment comes and we are the first to be as believers in Christ that happen to die before Christ comes back.

Pastor Ross: Do we understand you correctly? Are you saying that the ones who die and believe in Christ that they are going to be resurrected and that’s the ones who Paul is referring to as being dead in Christ? Is that what you are saying?

Luche: Not the followers that are alive now that will be quickened up. He is saying that Israel was blinded and the Nation of Israel their eyes will be opened and they will see when Christ comes again. But, us as believers now we follow the way of the Lord, but if we die before Christ comes when He does come are we the first that get risen to meet our bodies meet with our souls?

Pastor Doug: Well this is where a lot of people get confused. There are only two categories Luche. There is the saved and lost; there are the dead that are saved and lost. Everybody who dies in Christ is sleeping until the resurrection. That is why Jesus said our friend Lazarus sleeps and I come that I might wake him. That our souls are floating around until the resurrection is something that came out of paganism and a lot of Christians do believe that. But, in the very beginning God said there are two choices; eternal life or death. Christians sleep until the resurrection. It doesn’t seem like they are asleep to them because if you are a Christian and you die Luche your next conscious thought is the resurrection. It is why Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. A thousand years might go by, but it doesn’t seem like a thousand years for you. But, that is why it says in Thessalonians that those that are sleeping will be caught up to meet Him in the air. Not in the old body; we’re all getting new bodies so God is not coming back for our body. Do you see what I am saying because He could give us a new body in heaven?

Pastor Ross: And in that if you look at verse 13 it says “For those who die I don’t want you to be ignorant brethren concerning those who have fallen asleep.” So he is definitely talking about those who have died. And he is referring to them as the ones who sleep in Jesus and Jesus will resurrect them when He comes again.

Pastor Doug: You know we have and I don’t know if you’re enroute because I heard you say that you are at the airport, but if you can simply remember to go online to “Amazing Facts dot org” or call our resource line there is a study guide that is perfect for your question. It is called “Are the Dead Really Dead” and it explains all of this business about the resurrections, where the dead are, what sleep means, absent from the body and so much of the confusion that you hear about. “Are the Dead Really Dead?” we’ll send that to you or anybody for free who calls this number.

Pastor Ross: That number is 1-800-835-6747. Our next caller is Thomas calling from Toronto, Canada welcome to the program.

Thomas: Hi thank you very much for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Hi how can we help you?

Thomas: Is it on? Yes Pastor Doug I was speaking to you probably about six months ago and I just wanted to thank you for that response you gave me. Is it alright to mention denominations on this line?

Pastor Doug: Well we prefer if you don’t we stick with the issues, but every now and then we slip.

Thomas: Okay I’ll keep it to an issue thing, but I was asking for a distinction between moral law and ceremonial law and you had mentioned I think that there is not real Scripture in the bible that distinguishes between ceremonial and moral law. But, it is an assumed thing the way the verses break down and are interpreted. Right?

Pastor Doug: Well you can find a distinction between the moral law and the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial law in Deuteronomy Chapter 4 but, to be honest with you Thomas I don’t remember all of the nuances that was in our conversation you said it was several months ago.

Thomas: Yeah, yeah, and yeah.

Pastor Doug: But, if you will look in Deuteronomy Chapter 4 where he rehearses what was given look in verse 13 “He declared me his covenant which he commanded you to perform the Ten Commandments and he wrote them on two tables of stone.” That’s the moral law and 14 “The Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments that you might observe them in the land that you cross over into to possess.”

So here at least is a distinction between some of the moral and other law which some were civil and some were ceremonial and some were health laws. But, there is a distinction that was made so is that what you are asking?

Thomas: Yes, but I just wanted to say that there is a distinction made, but it is really not kind of stated. Like it is something that is kind of germane to it.

Pastor Doug: There is an applied understanding that the ceremonial laws were connected to sacrifice and that were nailed to the cross that Colossians Chapter 2 is talking about. And I am hoping that this is addressing what you area addressing there.

Thomas: Yes, but can I say something real quick? It comes to my second question. I heard you speak on a program one time and ordered a CD package and I left my denomination to kind of rub it in and I have been in jail a lot away from my faith and I related a lot to what you said. You said if I ever find a new faith that has more answers for me then I would certainly follow suit.

Pastor Doug: Well I still believe that. I believe that if I found a church that was closer to the Bible than where I am at now. I am not where I am at now because I’ve gotten any marriage to a denominational loyalty. I think that is pathetic. We ought to be in the church we are in because of the truth. And if you could find somewhere closer to the truth why would you stay in a group? So what reason other than the truth could be a better reason to stay within a denomination? I hope that helps a little bit Thomas, but we have some other people standing by.

Pastor Ross: We are going to our next caller which is Chris calling from Ft. Worth, Texas. Welcome to the program Chris.

Chris: Hello Pastor Doug and Jean. I have two verses to comment on the character of God and the first one is Deuteronomy Chapter 32: 41 and the other one is Matthew Chapter 5: 44 and the reason I am asking this question is I had a lot of issues with people teaching that God doesn’t destroy and God is only love so He really even when you see Him in the Old Testament destroying. Maybe it really wasn’t Him doing it He was just allowing it to be done or something.

Pastor Doug: Oh I have heard this before and those people say that anything bad that happens it always had to be the devil. That God is good and how could He ever punish or destroy? You know the way I answer that is Revelation tells us that Satan is cast into a lake of fire. So who is casting Satan into a lake of fire? Is Satan casting himself in?

Chris: Hmm. I never thought about it.

Pastor Doug: So obviously at some point the Lord does take proactive action to punish the wicked. And there are many examples in the Bible where it says that the angel of the Lord went to vindicate God or to deliver His people. That was not the devil that was destroying the enemy. So people sometimes struggle with the idea that God can use the death penalty so to speak and they try to rewrite theology. You have to wear special glasses to read the Bible and get the interpretations of these people.

Chris: Yes.

Pastor Doug: But, if you read the Bible just the way it is written you will never come to those conclusions. Look at what happened in Noah’s day. Did Satan send the flood?

Chris: No. See the thing is say where I was reading the book “The Great Controversy” where it talks about how God allowed things to happen and they won’t say God actually sent the judgment, but He just removed His protection.

Pastor Doug: Well there are cases and in cases like that, but that’s not the general rule. In the story of Job God actually withdrew His protection and the devil came in, but God limited what could happen to Job. Now that scenario though is Job was God’s servant so God is holding back the devil from hurting His servant. But, there are cases where God has taken action Satan’s servants and so Job is the reverse of that and it is really the backwards example.

Chris: Oh okay. Well thanks a lot that really clears it up for me.

Pastor Doug: Well I am happy we have another happy customer. Thank you very much Chris.

Pastor Ross: Thanks for calling Chris. You know Pastor Doug the important point there is that it is clear from Scripture that God does take against the wicked, but even in doing so the Bible says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But, it is something He has to do.

Pastor Doug: No it breaks His heart. That’s right it is His strange act; it breaks His heart and there is not a doubt there are tears in God’s eyes when He must do that, but He does do it. A loving parent will sometimes chastise their children. But, they don’t enjoy it and if they enjoy it then something is wrong.

Pastor Ross: Yes that is wrong. Our next caller is Samantha listening from San Bernardino, California and listening on KTIE welcome to the program Samantha.

Samantha: Yes it is KTIE.

Pastor Doug: Can you speak up we can barely hear you?

Samantha: My question is why is it that Christians will not believe that it is Christ that they will worship when He calls himself the son of man many, many times? And He never once said I am God.

Pastor Doug: So your question is why do people also believe that He is the son of God?

Samantha: No why don’t they believe what He said when He called himself the son of man many, many times.

Pastor Doug: Well I don’t know who it is that doesn’t believe that. I believe that He is the son of man and that he is the son of God.

Samantha: Well why don’t you ever talk about it because no Christians ever talk about Him being the son of man? Because they believe He is the son of God instead of the son of man.

Pastor Doug: Well I‘ll tell you what I don’t want you to be able to say that anymore so I will talk about it right now. Jesus uses one of the phrases that you’ll find in Ezekiel as God often said to him son of man; go and prophesy. One of the beautiful things about Jesus is—and this is hard to explain mathematically--that He was 100% God and He was 100% man meaning that He got tired as men do and He fell asleep in a boat and slept through a storm practically. He got thirsty as men do on the cross and He was lonely in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus was the son of man. And that is why He is our example because He was tempted in all points as we are and He was doing this all without sin. So there you have it no dispute Jesus is the son of man, but He is also the son of God. You know I think one reason Samantha you don’t hear more people challenging that is that the world typically disbelieves His divinity not His humanity. And but, both are equally true. So I hope that helps.

Pastor Ross: Thank you for your call Samantha. Our next caller is hector calling from Connecticut and listening on the internet. Hector welcome to the program.

Hector: Thank you.

Pastor Ross: Hi your question?

Hector: Yes Exodus Chapter 4: 24. Seems like God called Moses to go and rescue His people from the land of Egypt. And he is given an instruction of how to do this and all of a sudden in verse 24 God is about to kill Moses. Why?

Pastor Doug: Let me read this to our friends because a lot of our listeners are in their vehicles and may not know the verse 24 “And it came to pass that on his way…” Moses is now on his way to Egypt at God’s urging to deliver the people of people. “…at the encampment…” They had some primitive men along the road where their caravan had stopped. “…the Lord met him and sought to kill him.” I guess that answers our former question doesn’t it Pastor Ross?

Pastor Ross: It does a little yes.

Pastor Doug: “The Lord sought to kill him and then Zipporah his wife took a sharp stone.” They used to make knifes out of flinty stone. “And cut off the foreskin of her son.” She circumcised her son. One of the two sons they had evidently had not been circumcised. “And cast it at Moses feet and said surely you are a husband who bled for me.” Or a bloody husband. Now this allows us to read between the lines here Hector and this is what they told us and came up with and I agree. Is that God had now called Moses to be the great leader and save the people of Israel? God had made a covenant with the Israelites and circumcision was a sign of that covenant. Moses had failed to perform that rite at least with the son that was with them on that trip and it could be Zipporah was resisting him there was a marital dispute and he was acquiescing to his wife instead of God. And God was saying if you are going to put the wishes of your wife to not circumcise your son ahead of me then you are in danger because I just called you to one of the greatest works a man has ever done and you are putting the desires of your wife. Finally it says the angel met him and it was the same way an angel met Balaam with a drawn sword and he didn’t kill him, but it was a threatening angel. He realized hey I’ve got to take care of this or I am doomed. And he told his wife and she seemed reluctantly and it is pretty graphic. But, anyway that is the story behind that Hector does that make any sense?

Hector: Wow. Yes.

Pastor Doug: So what happened to Moses once he finally complied with God’s covenant of circumcision he went on the way of—his own family was not following the covenant of Abraham and here he is going to save the descendents of Abraham. He had the practice it in his family and his wife Zipporah was not a Jew remember she was a Midianite. And so they may have had a difference of opinion on this.

Pastor Ross: I think another interesting thing the Lord sought to kill him and the Lord could have killed him.

Pastor Doug: Yeah he didn’t swing and miss; he did it to teach him a lesson. It’s the same when Balaam meets the angel the angel could have killed him instantly. But, he was there in a threatening way saying look your life is looming unless you deal with this.

Pastor Ross: Thanks for your call Hector and I hope that answers your question. Our next caller then is Joseph listening in New York, New York. Welcome to the program.

Joseph: Hello Pastor Doug. You know Pastor I have been reading that prior to the ancient Israelites settling where they did settle that the land was occupied by the Canaanites and then I think the Jebusites?

Pastor Doug: Jebusites yes.

Joseph: So my question is this Pastor the wall in the city of Jerusalem, who built that wall?

Pastor Doug: Well it has been built over many years in a series of sections. You got it right when you first mentioned the Jebusites and they’re found first in Genesis 15: 21. They were living in Jerusalem when the children of Israel first took the Promised Land and Jerusalem by that time was a city. The first mention of Jerusalem was when Abraham gave Melchizedek tithe from his victory in battle and it is called Salem there. The word “Jeru” means City. Back then it wasn’t called Jerusalem it was just called Salem and that is from the Hebrew word Shalom. So back in the days of Melchizedek there weren’t walls yet, but during the time of the Jebusites there were walls.

David finally had to the Jebusites. Joabe tells us in the Bible and history he went up through a water conduit, got into the city, opened the gates and let David’s army in and then David built onto those walls and Solomon built onto those walls. The walls were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and the walls were destroyed during the period of the Kings at one point by the Kings of Israel, rebuilt after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed them by Ezra and Nehemiah, destroyed again at some point partially by the Persians, rebuilt destroyed by the Romans, rebuilt, but when you go to Jerusalem you can still see remnants of the original foundation stones that go all the way back to Solomon and that is called the wailing wall because it is some of the original wall and it is why they worship there.

Joseph: What were the Canaanites to the Jebusites?

Pastor Doug: Well Jebusites were Canaanites and it meant any of the nations that lived in Canaan. The Jebusites, the Hiptites, the Perasites, they were all Canaanites.

Joseph: You mentioned Melchizedek was he a Jebusite?

Pastor Doug: No. The Jebusites came later keep in mind that it is the difference between the time of Abraham and the time of Joshua and there are several hundred years there. The Jebusites evidently inhabited that area and some people have wondered if Melchizedek was old Shem; the son of Noah who had come to follow Abram after he migrated to get away from the idolatry in Mesopotamia. They can’t prove that, but he was alive during the same time.

Pastor Ross: Just the text on that because sometimes folks wonder about Melchezidek and it talks about him being the King of Salem. Psalms 76: 2 talks about Salem and says that’s where God’s tabernacle is and that’s His dwelling -place in Sion so that really connects Salem with Jerusalem.

Joseph: Thank you so much Pastors.

Pastor Doug: Thank you we appreciate your call.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Tim calling from Rochester, New York. Welcome to the program. Tim your question?

Tim: Hello there sir how are you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good how are you? How can we help?

Tim: Yes I have a question about the Trinity. And how come the various denominations hold true to say a lot of paganism went into the early church and then by these denominations that have separated themselves, but the Trinity is pretty much a pagan belief. Especially in the denomination where they hold Mary with such esteem. She wouldn’t be called the mother of God if Jesus wasn’t considered God.

Pastor Doug: Well for one thing if Mary is part of the Trinity then it is not a Trinity it becomes a quartet. And I don’t mean to be funny because really there are churches pushing for Mary to be deified on an equal level with Jesus and that would really destroy the doctrine of the Trinity and you would have a womanly holy quarter. I think what you are asking is and it is true that many pagan religions had a three part god is that what you’re saying?

Tim: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Well that is true but, just because pagan religions have a counterfeit of trinity for the truth doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. When you get into Revelation everything is done in sections of three. Not only is the beast identified as the beast, false prophet and the dragon. Everything falls one third of the trees, one third of the oceans and so forth. But, God is identified in a threefold way. You have got the angels saying Holy, Holy, Holy. At the baptism we’re told to great commission baptize in the name of three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and if there were not any other verses in the Bible it would tell us just by that there is a precedent for the three people that we are to baptize in the name of. Oh I hear the music. That is a good question Tim and there is a book I’ll send you for free that I wrote and it is called “The Trinity is it Biblical”. The word is not found in the Bible, but the teaching of the God head is very Biblical and if you’d like a free copy or any of our friends who are watching just call “Bible Answers Live” it is a toll free number. It is 1-800-835-6747. We’ll send you the book on the Trinity. Well Pastor Ross I think we have run out of time.

We always like to remind our friends before we go off the air that this is a faith based ministry and we count on you to help us stay on the air. Go to “Mary Truth dot com” to find out more about the truth countering the Da Vinci Code movie that is coming. God bless you friends and keep us in your prayers. And help us stay on this station next week.

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Interpreting Scripture Bible Questions and Answers by Gerhard Pfandl

Interpreting Scripture Bible Questions and Answers by Gerhard Pfandl
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