Rest in Peace

Scripture: 1 Corinthians 14:27-28, Revelation 18:8, Ephesians 2:15
Date: 09/16/2012 
In 1876, a handful of former counterfeiters botched a morbid plan to kidnap the body of Abraham Lincoln and hold it ransom. The hapless grave robbers were arrested two days later.
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Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In 1876, a handful of former counterfeiters botched a morbid plan to kidnap the body of Abraham Lincoln and hold it ransom. The hapless grave robbers were arrested two days later. Fearing another attempt, the government secretly hid the body of the 16th President in an unmarked grave for 25 years.

Then in 1901 under the urging from Robert Lincoln, the President's only surviving child, Lincoln’s body was dug up and placed inside a steel cage, lowered into a 10-foot deep vault, and buried under tons of wet concrete. Before the coffin was placed in the ground, it was opened for several close friends to positively identify that the remains in the casket were indeed that of Lincoln.

You can understand they were a little concerned because Lincoln’s body had already been moved to a total of 17 times from his assassination until his final interment on the grounds of Oak Ridge cemetery. They testified that even though his clothes were covered with mold, his face was just as recognizable as it was in life. In spite of all this shuffling, there’s no evidence that Abraham Lincoln ever complained.

This gives new meaning to the words, “Rest in Peace.” So do the dead know, or care, where their remains are or if they’re disturbed? Stay with us friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: Welcome listening friends to Bible Answers Live. We’re very thankful that you have tuned in. If you’d like to call in with your Bible question, that’s the purpose of this program. We’ll give you the number and we have lines open right now. It's 1-800-GOD-SAYS, that’s 1-800-463-7297. We still have lines open for your Bible questions. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening listening friends and Pastor Doug. Let’s begin the program with prayer. Dear Father, once again we thank You that we have this opportunity to study Your Word. The Bible is Your Book and we need the Holy Spirit to guide us as we search these precious pages of truth. Be with those who are listening wherever they might be. For we ask this in Jesus' name, Amen.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amen.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about Abraham Lincoln. I didn’t know that he was moved 17 times after death.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. Now that, of course, is including from the place where he died there, across Ford’s Theater, and then to the White House, and the embalmers, and the train ride. I guess he was shuffled around quite a bit; and then even after being buried they had to move him a couple times because they were going to kidnap his body. The idea was these counterfeiters wanted to use the body not only for a $200,000 ransom, but they wanted to force the government to release their friend who was their master engraver in the counterfeiting business.

So it was a kookie plan and everything that could go wrong went wrong. But you just think through all of this, what was Abraham thinking? Abraham Lincoln, I'm sure, didn’t know anything. According to the Bible, when someone dies it’s a dreamless sleep. They have no consciousness of time. Their next conscious thought, if they’re saved, is the resurrection of the just.

If they’re lost, it’s immediate, like going from death to the resurrection of the damned Jesus speaks about. You can also read about this in the book of Job, in chapter 14. It talks about someone who dies and it says, “His sons come to honor, and he knows it not. They are brought low, but he perceives it not of them.” It tells us in Psalms that they never return to their house, and when they die their breath goes forth. In that very day their thoughts perish. By the way, that's Psalm 146, verse 4.

So it’s pretty clear biblically, that when a person dies, they don’t know what happens with the old body. They’re not concerned about it. Someone else brought out an interesting point that if Lincoln is a ghost--I remember when I was a kid we believed in ghosts and spirits; and we did seances and Ouija boards and the whole thing. We tried to conjure up Abraham Lincoln.

And someone said, "If Lincoln is a ghost, he’s the busiest ghost in the world because they say he’s haunting Ford’s Theater. They say he’s haunting the White House. They said that he’s haunting places in Illinois and that they’ve got him appearing everywhere." I like what the Bible says. He's asleep. He doesn’t know anything.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The Bible even tells us in Psalm 115, verse 17, this might come as a surprise; often the idea is out there that when a person dies they go immediately to heaven. But the Bible says, "The dead do not praise the Lord," so if somebody is in heaven the moment they die, according to this verse, Psalm 115:17, they’re not even praising the Lord.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: First thing I’m going to do when I get there is praise the Lord. So they must be sleeping. Now you know what confuses people? There’s that verse that says, “To be absent from body, and to be present with the Lord,” sometimes it's misquoted, but that’s the idea. People need to understand, for a person saved, it is true. Their next conscious thought when this body dies, is being caught up with their glorified body and in the presence of the Lord, but for us that live in the world, years may pass.

An example would be in Acts chapter 1 where King David, it talks about his being dead--sorry, Acts chapter 2. Peter says, “Let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried.” And later it says, “...his tomb is with us til this day and he is not ascended into the heaven.”

Pastor Jëan Ross: That’s Acts chapter 2, verse 34.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That’s right. Now we’ve got a lot of verses on this, friends, that will really give you some encouragement and comfort. Very simply, the dead don’t go to heaven before the resurrection and before the Judgment. They don’t go to hell before the resurrection and before the Judgment. People have often confused this because of a few passages, and we’ll explain that clearly in the free offer.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We have a book that we'll send to anyone who gives us a call on our resource line. The book is entitled, “Spirits of the Dead: Do They Speak and Hear?” You can just ask for the book, Spirits of the Dead, and we’ll be happy to send that to you. The number to call is 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for the book, Spirits of the Dead.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And how much is that book?

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, the price is right. Tonight it is just a phone call. Matter of fact, it's a toll-free number, so you won’t lose. The number again, 1-800-835-6747. It’s yours just for the asking. Our first caller this evening is Alex and he is listening on KSVA from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Alex, welcome to the program.

Alex: Thank you. My name is Alex. I heard something about Doug Batchelor and I want to thank both of you for all this you are doing for us. I just want to thank you all. There was something Doug Batchelor said the other night, something about knowing maybe the time when the antichrist's coming, and I just wanted to know more about that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, there’s a prophecy that talks about--well there are several prophecies that talk about the antichrist; but there is a time prophecy, and you’ve maybe heard about 1,260 days? There’s a time prophecy that’s mentioned three different ways in the Bible. It’s 1,260 days, 3 ½ years. Now the Jewish year had 360 days so that adds up, 3 ½ years would be 1,260 days. Then it calls it also in Revelation 42 months, which is 1,260 days.

Alex: What time?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We have a lesson we’ll send you that has all those dates and references for free, if someone wants to know about who the antichrist is. You had the second part of that, or what is that date, you’re wondering?

Alex: Yeah, more or less the date. I also called for prayer, and for those that don’t know Jesus, and there’s a lot of us, and, I know Him but I need Him in my life.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We all need prayer, don’t we?

Alex: Amen, amen. We all do.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, the best thing would be is if you let us send you the lesson, because you’re really asking us to give you a study that covers about four chapters in the Bible; and there are some dates connected with it that we want people to understand. But there’s no really question about it. It really talks about the, kind of the first advent of the antichrist, which is past. The antichrist receives a deadly wound and is healed, and that’s all I’m going to tell you right now.

Alex: Okay, alright.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alex, the number to call for this free resource, if you have something to write down this number, it’s 1-800-835-6747, and the study guide is simply entitled, “Who is the Antichrist?” Ask for that study guide and we’ll be happy to send that out to you. Next caller is Fred and he’s listening from Connecticut on the Internet. Fred, welcome to the program.

Fred: Yes, thank you. I just wanted to ask you, for non-Christians who…

Pastor Jëan Ross: Fred, get real close to your phone there.

Fred: Okay. For non-Christians who basically who lived a pretty good life, would God be more tolerable to give them a tolerable (unintelligible), so to speak, rather than annihilation?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Jesus is pretty clear. Everybody is rewarded according to their works. It says that, for one thing in Revelation--is that chapter 1, verse...?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Chapter 22 speaks of that.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh okay, and I think it’s also in chapter 1. It says, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him.”

Pastor Jëan Ross: "...and those who pierced him." Chapter 22 says He's coming to give every man according to his works.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. Then in Luke chapter 12, verse 47, it says, “And that servant that knew his Lord’s will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, he is beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes, he is beaten with few stripes.” In other words, to whom much is given, much is required. So, a person who knows God’s will, they’re going to be more culpable than someone who maybe is disobedient or sinful, but they didn’t know really, or understand.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That verse in Revelation, it’s Revelation 22, verse 12, and it says, “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. I don’t know if that helps a little bit?

Fred: I know it’s a somewhat difficult issue to deal with people; you know, people are on both sides of the fence on that question.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, well if everybody burns forever, then everybody gets the same punishment. Do you see what I’m saying? But according to Jesus, people receive different rewards. Some people may be as though they'd not been. Some might be burnt up quickly. People are going to suffer and there is a Judgment day; but the Bible tells us the time is coming when there is no more pain or suffering. All the former things are passed way. Everything is made new. So the only way that you can reconcile these verses is if there are varying degrees of punishment.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We have a study guide dealing with the subject of what happens to the wicked. It’s the subject of hell. We’ll send you a study guide, Fred, for free on this subject if you call our resource line. It’s 1-800-835-6747, and the study guide is entitled, “Is the Devil in Charge of Hell?” It will go through a number of important Bible verses dealing with the subject.

We also have a website called,, which you can go to right away. You can take this study guide and actually do it for yourself online. It’s entitled again, There are videos to watch and just a lot of great resources for a person wanting to study the subject.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: The other verse I was thinking of, it wasn’t Revelation 1. It’s Romans 2, verse 6. It says, “...Who will render to every man according to his deeds.” So that was the other one. Hey thank you Fred.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We have John who’s listening from Louisiana, listening on the Internet. John, welcome to the program.

John: Hey Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross. I have a question about 1st Corinthians 14, verses 27 and 28. My question is, if the speaker knows what he’s saying, why does he need an interpreter to edify the church instead of himself? And in the next verse, if there’s no interpreter, is it okay for him to speak in tongues out loud, or is he supposed to just pray under his breath?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright. First of all, we have a free book we’ll send you, and it’s called, Understanding Tongues.

John: Okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You can read it even online at the Amazing Facts' website, again for free. It’s called, Understanding Tongues. It’s under our Free Resources tab, but let me give you a quick answer. First, understanding what tongues is; tongues is not senseless babbling where the person speaking has no idea what their saying.

In 1st Corinthians 14 when Paul talks about unknown tongues, he’s talking about another language that others present may not understand. So if someone gets up to prophesy or preach, or to teach in a language that the majority don’t understand, he’s just speaking unto God (God understands all languages) and not unto men.

And Paul is saying, "Don't do that unless you have a translator." It calls it an "interpreter" in the King James Version. I’ve often preached where I have people translating, sometimes two translators, in one sermon because there are three language groups present.

So, when it says here in chapter 14:27, “If any man speaks in an unknown tongue, let it be by two or three," meaning take turns, "at the most you have three translators, and that by course," that means in turn, "and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence; and let him speak unto himself and God.” So is that the verse that you’re wondering about?

John: Yeah. On that 28, I don’t know if that means it’s okay for him to just be speaking it, or if he don’t have an interpreter, should he be just doing it under his breath?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, it says if there’s no translator, let him keep silent in the church.

John: Meaning don’t even speak it, if …?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well the only reason you would speak out loud in a group is to communicate thought.

John: Right.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And that’s why Paul says earlier in the chapter, “I’d rather speak five words with my understanding where I might instruct others, than 10,000 in an unknown tongue.”

John: So when it says, “...let him speak to himself and to God”...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That when you pray, of course God knows what you’re praying.

John: Okay. But it’s not where anybody could hear the prayer?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well if no one understands you...

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, it’s also important to recognize the context here. Paul is writing to believers in the church at Corinth. Corinth was made up of people from different backgrounds, different cultures, different languages, and so there were people in the church that some would get up and speak; and if we were to put it in modern times, maybe the congregation is comprised of people who speak Spanish, and English and French. And there might be somebody who gets up to speak Portuguese, and nobody understands that.

So if somebody is going to speak a language that the members don’t understand, let there be a translator. If there’s nobody to translate, he can pray to the Lord. He would understand it, but the people wouldn’t there.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: In verse 9, 1st Corinthians 14, verse 9, let me just close this thought. He says, “So likewise, except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For you speak into the air.” So in a public setting when the church is gathered together, it should be for instruction. If people are speaking in an unknown tongue where others present don’t understand what’s being said, Paul said, “Just speak quietly in your heart to God," or, "Pray in your heart to God.”

We’ll send you that free book. Its got a really good study on it. It’s called, Understanding Tongues. Its got a lot of Scripture references and good practical application. Just call the number.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747, and you get the book, Understanding Tongues; the number 1-800-835-6747. That is the resource line, and you can ask for the book, Understanding Tongues; or go to the Amazing Facts' website and you can read it for free right there online at the free resources. Our next caller is Ed and he’s listening on WMCA from New York. Ed, you’re on the program.

Ed: Yes, good evening. I have one big question and one very small question, which is easy to answer. Revelation 18:7, wherein it says, “I sit as a queen, and am no widow, and shall know no sorrow.” What does that mean? Oh by the way, as I was looking this up, I looked at another version and it cross-references Isaiah 47:8-9 on that, but I didn’t check that out because I was waiting to go on the air.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, well I think Isaiah chapter 47 talks about the virgin daughter of Babylon and the judgment that’s going to come on her. The whole chapter is dealing with that, and what happens in Revelation is sort of a parallel of that. Very quickly, in the Old Testament God’s people were carried into Babylon, and Babylon sort of represented the conglomerate of a lot of false religions.

In the New Testament, matter of fact, even Peter referred to Rome as Babylon. He said the churches in Babylon greet you. They called Rome Babylon back then because--we were just talking about the churches in Rome having all these different languages where there was babbling because they didn’t understand each other. So you can see why they called them "Babylon."

Here, it’s talking about what would happen to the church when it became corrupt. It says that this harlot in Revelation 17 called, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT," that she gets involved in politics and starts to persecute the real people of God, and there’s a great falling away and apostasy in the church. But she says, “I’m a queen. I’m not a widow." In other words, "Christ hasn’t departed from me,” so there's this boasting of her relationship with the Lord, and her wealth, and the symbol of her blessing.

Now, some false churches have said before, “Well look, we’re prosperous, we're numerous. God must be with us.” And that’s what Babylon says just before the Judgment. We have a lesson on this mystery woman too.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We do. It’s called, The other woman. Of course in Bible prophecy, a woman represents a church. Ed, if you'd call our resource line, we’ll send this lesson to you for free. It’s called, The other woman. Just ask for that. The number is 1-800-835-6747, again 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the study guide entitled, The other woman. Our next caller is Thomas and he’s listening also from New York. Thomas, welcome to the program.

Thomas: Hello?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening Thomas. You’re on the air.

Thomas: Oh, yes. I wanted an explanation of Isaiah chapter 14, verse 9 and Isaiah 5:14. Do those those two verses go together, because it seems to be talking about a place instead of, you know, like it’s from a--it's talking about a place--let's say, like is it like a--Judaism, is it here in the Old Testament? Explain 14 and verse 9, and, uh…

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright. Well this is another prophecy, actually about Babylon, that you read here. In Isaiah chapter 14, well you can go to verse 4, "Thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How the oppressor has ceased...." Then he goes through this soliloquy of Babylon and it’s wickedness and how it’s judgment is coming.

In verse 9 he says, “Hell from beneath.” That word "hell" there is speaking of the grave. "The grave from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up...." You read on here, and it tells us that this is talking about Lucifer. He’s an analogy of the king of Babylon here. The king of Babylon is an analogy of him.

Just look at verse 12, “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” At the end of the 1,000 years when the wicked are raised, and you find that in Revelation 20, the "hell," the "grave," comes up. Lucifer is there. So when it talks about the "wicked being stirred and coming up before you," this is telling of something that is going to happen in the future, where all the wicked are raised and the devil tries to martial Gog and Magog against the City of God, or, the New Jerusalem.

Thomas: Okay. What about verse 10, “All they shall speak and say unto thee, …”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: "Art thou become weak as we are?" Yeah, because Lucifer has, basically, had his power checked at that point. He’s bound for a 1,000 years; and it shows that he’s been limited in his power as prince of the world.

Thomas: Okay, so this is talking more like a future, in the future reference?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup, it is. You see, you go to verse 12, “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut to the ground, which did weak in the nations! For you said in your heart, 'I will be like God....'”

It tells all about the fall of Lucifer here. Now, we will send you, let me see, we’ve got the lesson on the millennium, Pastor Ross; and we've got the lesson on where the devil came from.”

Actually, you can read both for free, Thomas, online, or we can send you a copy, your pick. We've got a lesson on the sequence of when Lucifer is bound, and it’s talking about that 1,000 years of peace. I think that would be the best lesson for you, the millennium.

Pastor Jëan Ross: A 1,000 years of Peace. The number to call is 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for that study guide, A 1000 years of Peace. And also Thomas, just one other verse. Jesus said in John chapter 5, verse 28, it says, “Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming, in which all who are in their graves will hear His voice; those who have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil unto the...”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: "...resurrection of damnation."

Pastor Jëan Ross: "...resurrection of condemnation," or, "damnation." That’s John 5:28-29. So it's pretty clear there that everyone in the grave will be resurrected.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Jessica and she’s listening from Ohio. Jessica, welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Jessica, hi. You’re on the air.

Jessica: Hi, good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes?

Jessica: Hello?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’re here.

Jessica: Okay. I have a question. I just want to know is it biblical to have sex with your husband if the wife cannot bear children, or you know, if she had a procedure done where she can’t have children? Does the Bible say anything about that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think so, not specifically, but indirectly. The bigger question would be, is there a purpose for sexual intimacy in a marriage beyond procreation or reproduction?

Jessica: Right.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And I think there’s plenty of support in the Bible that there is. The marriage relationship, Paul says that husband and wife should come together on a regular basis in 1st Corinthians 7, and they really have an obligation to comfort and to encourage one another. And he doesn’t ever say it in the context there so you can just, you know, multiply like bunnies. Song of Solomon is pretty clear.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Hebrews chapter 13, verse 4, Paul writes, "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed is undefiled."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes. So, God places these desires within a husband and a wife; and the Bible says, "It’s better to marry than to burn." In other words, it's better to marry than burn with passion, meaning marriage is the appropriate environment where a husband and wife become one and they’re able to embrace one another. It’s not always expected that it’s always going to be because of reproduction.

When Abraham spent time with Sarah, even after she was 100, obviously they got together. They weren’t expecting for a long time any children to come from that, but they still got together. Do you know what I’m saying?

Jessica: That’s right, yeah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It's a little sensitive, but I think we all understand what we’re talking about. Hey, good question. I appreciate it Jessica. We don’t have a lesson on that we could send you [chuckles].

Pastor Jëan Ross: [Laughs] Alright, next caller is Rosy. She’s listening all the way from the Bahamas. Rosy, welcome to the program.

Rosy: Yes, good evening Pastor Batchelor and Pastor Ross. How are you both?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening Rosy. We’ve got about a minute before our break.

Rosy: Good. Okay, this is a quickie. This is really a praise call. I’m telling you, I’m very thankful that we can listen to you on Radio BDN here in the Bahamas from the city of Nassau.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I’ve been there, praise the Lord.

Rosy: Good. I just wanted, if you have enough time, could you explain 2nd Corinthians 12:2, where Paul is explaining that he knew a man in Christ about 14 years ago and "whether in the body" and "whether out of the body." What is he going on with right there? Could you give me a breakdown on that please?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I’ll do my best. I think Paul is humbly referring to an experience he had when he says, “I knew a man.” You know, John writes his Gospel; he talks about "the one who Jesus loved." He never really says, "It was me," so sometimes the Bible writers were discrete in saying something they experienced.

The reason he says, "In the body or out of the body, I cannot tell," he was caught away in a vision, and whether the Lord took him bodily in this vision and showed him or if he was just in mind or Spirit, it probably felt very real to him, something like when in Revelation 4, John is caught away. And so Paul is describing when he was brought up to the third heaven, or the very dwelling place of God, into the presence of the Lord, and he saw Him there. Hey, appreciate that question very much Rosy. Friends, you’re listening to Bible Answers Live.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know Pastor Doug, we’re going to be coming up on our break here in just a few moments. If any of our listeners are waiting to get their call in, don’t go away. We’re just going to take a short break here in a few moments. But before we take the break, we want to let everyone know about a website that we have that deals with the subject of what happens when a person dies.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes. We started our broadcast this evening with an amazing fact about Lincoln’s body being, at least, an attempted kidnapping. Do the dead know what’s happening to their bodies and are there ghosts floating around? What does the Bible teach about this? We have a website. It’s called, We’ll be back in a moment friends. We do have lines open with your Bible questions. It’s 1-800-463-7297. One more time, that’s 1-800-463-7297.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: We are back friends with Bible Answers Live. If you'd like to call in with your Bible questions, you still have a chance for tonight’s program. One more time here’s the number, free phone call, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, that’s 1-800-463-7297. I’m still Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And I’m still Jëan Ross. We’re going to go straight to the phone lines. The next caller is Phil and he’s listening from Buffalo, New York on WBCX. Phil, welcome to the program. Phil from Buffalo...

Phil: Hello?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, you’re on the air.

Bill: Okay, it’s Bill. I kind of got two questions. The first one goes, will a cashless society start before the rapture or after the rapture?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well were moving towards a cashless society right now. I believe the buying and selling that will be manipulated by the beast power is something that happens before the Lord descends from heaven and the dead in Christ are caught up.

You have a second question but let me tell you, we have a book we’ll send you for free that covers that very thoroughly, what the sequence is. It’s called, Anything But Secret. While we believe the Lord is going to rapture up the saints, it’s not a secret, and we’ll send you a book on that. What was the second part of your question?

Bill: I'd like to know the difference between hot or cold, when Jesus said, “I’d rather have you hot or cold." If you’re lukewarm, He’s going to spew you out like vomit.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, and that’s in Revelation chapter 3 in the message to the church of Laodicea. The Lord said that He would that we were hot or cold; but since we’re lukewarm, He’ll spew us out of His mouth. Now keep in mind in Bible times, they knew that if you boiled water it was typically safe. They had kettles and ways of doing that. They knew that cold running water was typically safe, but stagnating water would make a person sick.

The Lord can work with us when we’re in the state of repentance and humility, asking for Him to intervene or give us victory. He can work with us if we're full of zeal and passion to work for Him. But when we’re sort of indifferent and lackadaisical about our faith, we become self-confident, self-sufficient. He says, “You think you are rich and increase with goods.”

And when the church begins to just sort of think, "Hey, we've got a nice name on our building. We’ve got a nice attendance. We've got a comfortable church. We’re well respected in the community, and they don’t have a passion for winning the lost, then He says that nauseates Him. That’s the condition of a lot of Christians in the last age of the church, known as the “age of Laodicea.”

He wants us to wake up and repent and be revived in our faith. I appreciate your question Bill. We do have the Life in the Spirit book we can send you that talks about having that revived experience, Life in the Spirit.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The book is again, Life in the Spirit. The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for that book and we’ll be happy to send it to you, or take a look at the book online at the Amazing Facts' website. Bill, the verse you’re referring to is Revelation chapter 3, and it's verses 15 and 16. Our next caller is Heidi and she is listening from Northern Islands, California on KFIA. Heidi, welcome to the program.

Heidi: Hello.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi.

Heidi: How are you?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well. How are you, and your question tonight?

Heidi: Okay. Well, I guess it’s a two part question. One is, I’d like to know if the dinosaurs died out with the flood? And the second part is, why aren't the dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? I know not everything is, but I still wanted to have some kind of idea.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, yeah, there are thousands of species of animals and reptiles, if not millions. Noah was instructed to take two of probably each major category. When it came to dogs, for instance, I don’t think that Noah took two dachshunds and two German shepherds into the ark because those breeds were not even developed. But they were probably two wolf-like dogs that he took, and all the other dogs have pretty much come out of them.

I think that there were dinosaurs. What we called dinosaurs, it’s just a word for "thunder lizards." Before the flood, not only were there giant reptiles, we know there were giant mammals. I mean, I've seen a skeleton of a beaver 13 feet tall.

Heidi: Wow.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, imagine the trees they had to chew on back then. So there are all kinds of giant mammals that existed before, and everything was bigger. It doesn’t say that Noah had to take a full grown brontosaurus or triceratops or Tyrannosaurus Rex on the ark. You could have taken an egg for that matter; but he probably took a sample of all the major species of animals on the ark.

Probably a lot of animals were rendered extinct because the environment changed shortly after the flood, and you’ve had people like Nimrod. He was a mighty hunter. Anything that could get as big as Tyrannosaurus Rex was probably a threat and they hunted them down and rendered them extinct before too long.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well now Heidi, you asked if the Bible mentions anything about dinosaurs. I think there are at least two references to dinosaur-like creatures. I’m going to read you from Job chapter 40, verse 15 where it says, “Now look at behemoth, which I have made." It says, "...he eats grass like an ox.” Then further on it says, “His tail is like a cedar tree.” See, here he's a large animal that eats grass but it has a tail, a massive tail, like a cedar tree. We don’t know of any animal today that eats grass that has a massive tail.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Elephants eat grass. An elephant doesn’t have a tail like a cedar tree, so...

Pastor Jëan Ross: Neither does a rhinoceros. Then it goes on to say that it lived by the water, because it lived amongst the reeds. So, you know, if you look at some of the depictions of these massive dinosaurs that ate grass, they lived amongst reeds and water. It could very well be referring to this behemoth.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: So yeah, I think they are mentioned. "Dinosaurs" is a fairly modern name for these thunder lizards, and, yeah, I think they were living contemporaneous with man.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The other one is leviathan, and that’s also mentioned in the book Job.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: This big sea creature, but they don’t know exactly. Of course, there are big dinosaurs in the water too. Hey, we do have a book. Now, we can’t give this book away, but it’s a really good book that talks about--it’s kind of a comic book Bible study about dinosaurs and I enjoy it. It’s well illustrated, its got Scripture in it, and if you go to the Amazing Facts' website, look for our magazine on dinosaurs. I think you’ll enjoy that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well thanks for your call Heidi. Our next caller is E. Frank and he’s listening from Queens, New York on WMCA. E. Frank, welcome to the program.

E. Frank: Yes, thank you Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross. I truly appreciate you accepting and taking my phone call this evening. My question for both of you gentlemen is as follows. I’m just curious, in the book of John chapter 3, verse 15, it talks about Nicodemus and how you can reach salvation, but it doesn’t explain, you know. There’s a verse there that says, “As the wind comes and the wind passes.” I just want to know--I interpret this in this manner. I believe that maybe secular-life leaders who are saved, whether they're congressional, they could be the President, can they actually give us the influence and the necessary biblical understanding of God and Christ to lead others to salvation because they are actually saved?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, your first question is about the wind blows where it lists and you cannot see where it comes from or where it goes. Jesus is talking about the moving of the Spirit; it's sort of invisible, and you might be staring at a tree sometime on a summer day and all of a sudden its branches begin to move out of nowhere, and then they stop. You know a wind went by, but you didn’t see the wind. You don’t know exactly where it went. And so, the moving of the Spirit in the hearts of people, and that would be including congressional leaders, and all the way from the lowly voter to the President. I’m not sure if that’s answering your question about John 15 and congressional leaders.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Are you asking something about spiritual leaders, like pastors and teachers in the church?

E. Frank: Yes, as well as political leaders that are actually have salvation, they have Christ in them.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well you know, I think if somebody has surrendered their life to Christ, the Holy Spirit is definitely moving upon their heart. For without the Spirit, we can’t do anything. Doubtless, if they’re open, God will be working and trying to guide them.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’ve got a couple of examples in the Bible where you have people who are politicians, and they were very spiritual people. One being Joseph and another being Daniel. So, God worked through them to reach many others. I hope that helps a little. I appreciate your call E. Frank.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Beth and she’s listening from Detroit, Michigan on WMUZ. Beth, welcome to the program.

Beth: Hi, thank you for taking my call, I appreciate it.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes Beth, how can we help you?

Beth: Well my question is--and I hope I can phrase this in a good way--is someone who has received Christ at an early age who, later in her 20’s, declares now that she’s a lesbian and wants to live this lifestyle and says that it has nothing to do with her faith, she is still a believer. And my question is can someone be saved living in this lifestyle not being convicted that it is wrong? Was this person truly saved as a child ? Or is this person not saved?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Jesus says in Revelation, He also said in the Gospels that, “Unless a person repents, they will likewise perish.” A person cannot live in known, open, high-handed sin against their conscience and say, “Well, I accepted the Lord when I was 15 years old or 20 years old; and so now I can turn from a godly life and live for the devil because of some contract that the Lord has to save me now, no matter how I live.”

Pastor Jëan Ross: Paul says in 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verse 31, he says, “I die daily.” In other words, every day the Christian is to give himself or herself to God and say, “Lord, work within me.” So conversion isn’t just a one-time experience that happens at some point in a person’s life, but it’s really an on-going, day-by-day experience. We have the freedom to choose whether we want to surrender ourselves to Christ today or whether we don’t. Obviously, the Bible makes it very clear that we want to make that decision to choose to serve Him every day.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Paul is also pretty clear. He says that homosexuals, practicing homosexuals, will not inherit the kingdom of God. And I know that’s pretty clear, and it’s also pretty disturbing to some people in our culture to hear that; but the Bible calls this a perversion of God’s plan. I know there are dear people that love the Lord that struggle with all kinds of tendencies and temptations, and God can save them. But if they give in to those temptations and say, “I’m just going to abandon myself to living those things out,” they’re not trusting in God’s power to keep them from sin.

Beth: Right. What verse is that, where practicing homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: "And such were some of you," Pastor Ross, "that you’ve been washed." Pastor Ross is looking it up right now.

Beth: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: 1st Corinthians … You see what it sounds like when we’re searching [chuckles]. Hang on one second. I’ve got another program here.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My computer has frozen up on me Pastor Doug. We’ll get that for you, Beth, and give you the verse. You got it there?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think so, 1st Corinthians chapter 6, verse 9. “Know ye not that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, or idolaters, or adulterers, or effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” and that word "effeminate" there in the New King James version it says,"...or homosexuals or sodomites will inherit the kingdom of God." So, it’s just about as plain a statement as you can find, 1st Corinthians 6:9.

Beth: Okay, I appreciate that.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, thank you Beth.

Beth: Okay, thanks very much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: God bless.

Beth: Bye.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Jonathan and he’s listening on WMUZ from Dearborn, Michigan. Jonathan, welcome to the program.

Jonathan: Hey, how’s it going?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well, how are you doing?

Jonathan: Not too bad. I was just calling because in the New Testament, Paul says he doesn’t want women to be preaching. Now, I was just curious, is that something that’s more cultural at the time, or should we really be operating off what he says there?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I don’t think that Paul is making a prohibition against a woman sharing truth. He talks about a woman not having authority over a man; and that would include a woman serving in the capacity of a pastor, apostle or priest, which there's no Bible support for that. Some say, "Well that’s just because of the culture of the day."

But, in fact, from the time of Moses all the way through the time of Christ, the pagan nations surrounding Israel did have women priests so it would have been very easy for Jesus, or Paul, or Moses to say, "Well there’s nothing wrong with women serving as priests." Now, there were women who were prophets and women who are even judges, but when it came to offering sacrifice, you only have men consistently through the Bible serving as the priest of the family in the church.

Abraham offered for his family; Job for his family; Jacob; the patriarchs; the Levites; the sons of Aaron were the only ones who were ordained; the apostles of Jesus; the replacement for Judas. Even in New Testament times, they said, "Choose out from among these men who follow Jesus." There were women in the upper room, but they never even considered that they would choose a woman in that capacity. But there were women like Aquila and Priscilla; here you’ve got a team of husband and wife that are giving studies, so there’s nothing wrong with a woman using her gifts to teach, or to give studies, or to preach and do evangelism.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Especially, if we see in Scripture, there are examples of women that had the gift of prophecy. And if you have the gift of prophecy, you’re going to be preaching, and teaching and sharing what God has revealed to you. So there’s nothing wrong with an individual preaching; but, as Pastor Doug mentioned, that deals with the role of the priesthood and that type of ministry.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know, I’ve got a book. I’ll send you a free copy if you'd like it Jonathan. It’s called, The Role of Women in Ministry, what the Bible says about that.

Jonathan: Oh okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay? Its got a lot of Scriptures in it. It’s, God’s Role for Women in Ministry. Just ask, call the number, and you can read it online for free too.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, Women in Ministry, and we’ll be happy to send that out. Our next caller is Brian and he’s listening from Florida. Brian, welcome to the program.

Brian: Yeah, good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening Brian.

Brian: Yeah, I had one, it's like a real quick story, then I'll ask you my Scripture?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Brian: I go to a Jewish Messianic synagogue where Jeff Szymanski is, and he’s a friend of yours.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, tell Jeff I said hello.

Brian: I will. He told an interesting story about you, the polishing of the shoes; because we got together because the Jewish New Year started tonight.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh yeah.

Brian: And so he told the story about the time you attempted to polish your father's shoes, and you got the line on the painting and the ceiling...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, shoe polish everywhere.

Brian: ...then you denied it, then there was the line on your body too. It’s a real funny story.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Of course, I was only five year old friends. It didn’t happen last week.

Brian: Yeah, I had told them that. I heard you share a lot of stories, but I never heard you share that one.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, well I’ve actually got that I think in a book called, To See the King, and there’s an illustration point to it. Now, your question tonight?

Brian: Yeah. My question is Deuteronomy 26, verse 12.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright. Can I read that to everyone?

Brian: Yeah, go ahead. I read out of the New King James.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, I’ll do it there too, Deuteronomy 26:12. “When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled.”

Now, this was a special tithe that was above and separate from what they would get whenever they harvested on an annual basis from their increase. They set aside a special tithe that was to help with the poor.

Brian: What is "in the third year" mean? What year is the third year?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well they had their years marked off by the Jubilee, and so it’s talking about three years--every third year, in other words. Every seventh year they wouldn’t farm their land. Every third year they would, sequentially, they would say, “Let’s give a special tithe to the poor.”

They didn’t do it on a yearly basis because they didn’t want it to turn into an entitlement program that would discourage hard work; but this is a special tithe that the people would give.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, God did take care in a special way of those who were widows, and the poor and orphans. There was also instruction given that when you harvested your field, you want to go back a second time to make sure you got everything. But if you leave something in the field, leave it so that the widows and the poor could feed and eat.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Brian, we have a free study guide we’ll send you. It’s called, In God We Trust. It kind of covers what is the New Testament perspective on tithing. Some people said, “Well I know what they did in the Old Testament, but what’s the pattern for New Testament Christians when it comes to tithe or offerings? Is that still an obligation?” You just call that number and we’ll send it to you. Make sure and tell Jeff I said hello.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our phone number for that free resource is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, In God We Trust. Lee is listening in Oregon on KFYL. Lee, welcome to the program.

Lee: Hello! I have a question about the Judgment.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Lee: I read in Acts 17:31 that Paul, talking to the people in Athens, he said, "God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.

Lee: So I’m wondering, do you know that day? And if there’s a beginning, do you know when it will end?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Jesus refers to it "at the last day." He said, "I will raise them on the last day." Sometimes it’s called the "day of the Lord" or the "great Judgment day." Revelation refer to it as--well Revelation, when it talks about the Great White Throne Judgment, that’s probably the one that happens at the end of the 1,000 years.

But the whole process of judgment really begins with a time just before Jesus' return where the house of God goes through a judgment. Peter says, "Judgment must begin at the house of God." Then there’s a more executive judgment that happens at the end of the 1,000 years where the wicked are cast into a lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Lee, we’ve got a free study guide we’ll send you on, Facing the Judge, if you’d like a copy of that. It goes through the whole sequence of the judgment, and when it began and when it’ll end.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The study guide I believe is entitled, Case Closed.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I’m sorry, that’s right.

Pastor Jëan Ross: If you’d like to receive that Lee, or anyone, call our resource line. It's 1-800-835-6747, and you can ask for the study guide, Case Closed. That’s 1-800-835-6747. Our next caller is Paul and he’s listening from St. Louis. Paul, welcome to the program.

Paul: Hi Pastors. First of all, thank you for your program. I really enjoy listening to it every day.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hey I was in St. Louis this week. We missed each other. I just go through. But your question?

Paul: My question is, how do you convince someone who believes in reincarnation, that it's not real? I mean, I heard a story on the radio the other day about some four-year old girl in India where they already believe in reincarnation. She was saying how she lived a previous life. She was married; she described the house she lived in; the relatives that were in the village a few hundred miles away, and so they went there. Sure enough, everything was exactly as she described it, the house, the people.

On the surface it sounded very real and authentic. A lot of people would think, “Wow! She really lived in a previous life.” Well I know it’s not true. You know it’s not true. But how do you convince other people that it’s just demons put in this area of their minds?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Exactly. First of all, if a person believes the Bible, then they believe that Satan has these fallen angels, or devils or minions that he works through. They obviously know who lived before, and where they lived, and what they did and they can plant things. I mean, the devil gives inside information.

You can read the story of the witch of Endor and learn that. But if you’re talking to someone that is struggling with reincarnation, what helped me is someone said, “Yeah, I used to believe in reincarnation. I was into the Indian religions.” And a Christian said, “Well, the Bible actually teaches one reincarnation, but you come back as you.”

You come back for the resurrection for the judgment; and that, to me, actually that was the stepping stone to get me to consider the biblical idea. I used to wonder who I was in my former life. It never made any sense to me because I thought, "What good is it to have lived all these lives and not remember any of them? How do you learn from anything?"

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, all the people that claimed to have been reincarnated, they all claim to have been some famous person of past history. I don’t know how many Caesars there have been around, or some famous person, Pharaohs, from ancient times.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And no one ever says, "I was a mongrel dog in the beginning." They always say they were Cleopatra or somebody. Hey, I appreciate that question. We do have our lesson, again, that we’re offering tonight, “Are the Dead Really Dead?” There’s a website that we probably ought to start talking about since halloween is in the stores already Pastor Ross, our website on ghost truth. A lot of people wonder about that. It’s

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Judy, still dealing with the subject of, “Well, what happens when you die?” Judy, welcome to the program. You’re listening in Bronx, New York.

Judy: Hello, yes, hello?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi. Hey, we’ve got one minute Judy.

Judy: I'd like to know something. When a person dies, does the spirit go--where does the spirit go? Does it wander on the streets or does it go back to the residence?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright. Let me give you a quick answer before we run out of time. We’re does the spirit go when you die? The Bible tells us that in Ecclesiastes chapter 12, that the dust returns to the earth as it was; and the "spirit," and that word there is "breath of life," the "ruach" is the Hebrew word, returns to God who gave it.

So this power, this energy of life that God gives all of His creature’s, returns to God. But it doesn’t say that it is the conscious soul that is floating around thinking or doing things. These people are sleeping a dreamless sleep. The spirit does not flutter around. It’s the power of God, something like when you unplug an appliance. You say, “Where did the electricity go?” Well, that’s back at the power station, or wherever it came from.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, the verse you mentioned, Ecclesiastes chapter 12, verse 7? It doesn’t say the spirit of good men return to God, but it says, "The spirit of all men return to God a death."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That breath of life, that spark of life.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Matter of fact, Ecclesiastes says it’s even the spirit of all life. Even the animal's [breath] returns to God who gave it. So it's not a conscious, cognitive soul.

Friends, you can tell from the music we are out of time. Hey, we'd love to hear from you this week. The program doesn’t need to end. Please go to our website. It’s Drop us a line and keep the program on the air. God bless until we talk again.


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