Are the Dead Really Dead

Scripture: Revelation 15:1-8, 1 Kings 13:1-34, Proverbs 18:21
Date: 10/07/2012 
After her husband died in 2010, Adrianna Villarreal Buenos Aires made it a point to frequently visit the tomb in Dos de Mayo, Argentina, but these were not your average visits.
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Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? After her husband died in 2010, Adrianna Villarreal Buenos Aires made it a point to frequently visit the tomb in Dos de Mayo, Argentina, but these were not your average visits. When police checked out the mausoleum, she came to the entrance in her pajamas. Evidently she had been living there for a few days and made a few small renovations. She brought in a bed, a radio, a computer with internet connection and even a small cooker.

Adrianna explained to the officials she made the trip about three times a year to be near her deceased husband and to visit with him. Presumably these are one sided conversations. Asked if she was afraid of sleeping in the cemetery next to an embalmed corpse, the 43 year old said, “It’s the living we should be afraid of.” Adrianna added, “When you love somebody you do all sorts of things.”

So does the Bible tell us that the dead are aware of these cemetery visits? Stay with us friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think its been over 16 years now that we’ve been doing this program where we get together with you at least once a week friends and we take your Bible questions and do our best to give you answers from the Word of God. That’s why we're here. If you have a Bible question, next hour it's all about trying to find the truth from God’s Word.

Call in with your questions. A couple of lines are still open and there's a good chance of getting your question on tonight’s broadcast if you call now. That number one more time, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. If you get a busy signal at first it’s just our operators are tied up, give them a chance. Again, 1-800-463-7297, and I'm Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening listening friends. Pastor Doug, before we go to the phone lines let's begin with prayer. Dear Father, once again we thank You for this opportunity to be able to study Your Word and we ask Your blessing upon this program. Be with those who are listening. We pray for wisdom as we search the Scriptures. Thank You for Your promise that where we are gathered in Your name You will guide us. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amen.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about most unusual place for a person to camp out or to stay any length, especially at night. Being in a graveyard or a cemetery at night always has this connotations of ghosts or just a scary place to be in; and yet this woman, she's living right there next to the tomb stones.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well she's not just next to a tomb stone. They’ve built a whole mausoleum, a little miniature house, above her husband’s grave and she has moved into this with a bed and a radio and all the amenities so that she could visit. She actually travels from Buenos Aries to this other city so that she can visit her husband.

The question you have to ask, especially this time of year when you walk through the stores and we see all the halloween decorations and paraphernalia, ghosts and all the emphasis on those things that are scary and dead, "Do the dead know what the living are doing? Are they tuned in to what’s happening here in this world? Are those spirits communicating?"

Now before I get into answering that question, I want to recommend a website that talks about ghosts that our friends might find very interesting and it's--I’ll let you tell us. What’s it called?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well it’s just simply, just

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Got a lot of Bible studies there, and it'll talk about even a Bible experience where someone claimed to see a ghost and what that's all about. But if you want to find out what the Scriptures say, Isaiah 38:18-19, “For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: those that go down into the pit cannot hope in thy truth. The living, the living, he will praise thee.”

A similar verse in Job 14 speaking about someone who dies, and it says, “His sons come to honor, and he knows it not of them: they are brought low, but he perceives it not of them.” In other words, when a person dies they're not being happy or sad watching what’s happening to their children here on earth. Jesus described it as a dreamless sleep when he was talking about Lazarus.

One more verse, and there are tons of them in our book we are going to offer in just a moment, but here's a sampling:

Psalm 146:3-4, “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of the man, in who there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” “The living know they will die: but the dead know not any thing," Ecclesiastes 9; and many more in a free study guide we’d like to send to you. What’s the name of that Pastor Ross?

Pastor Jëan Ross: A study guide that we’re going send to anybody who gives us a call on our resource line is, "Are the Dead Really Dead?" The number to call is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, "Are the Dead Really Dead?" and we’ll be happy to send that out to you. Also again, that website is, just

If you're close to your computer you can join via the stream tonight. If you go to, you will be able to join us here in the studio and not only hear the program but actually see the program.

Well with that, let's go to our phone lines. Our first caller this evening is David and he’s listening in Minnesota. David, welcome to the program.

David: Thank you, good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening.

David: First I want to tell you I’ve seen a lot of literal miracles in my life. My question is will my deceased parents be punished for a lot of malicious and sadistic abuse that they put me through growing up?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well first of all, we don’t know the particulars of what your deceased parents went through or what they did. Everyone is rewarded according to their works, but if a person genuinely repents and turns from their sin and confesses their sin, Jesus forgives all manner of sin and blasphemy.

So I think it’s also important David that--it sounds like you, obviously, are hurt about this--that you pray that God will help you to forgive. Sounds like your parents have passed away and you need to just let that go so you're not hurt by the bitterness of it all, and get some good Christian counseling.

If you’re struggling with forgiving your parents because of the abuse and the hard things that they put you through, you can’t re-live that now. You just have to say, “Well, it is what it is and by God’s grace I'm not going to make the same mistakes. I'll move on and serve the Lord.” I appreciate that.

You know what? We don’t really have a lesson on that particular subject or a book that we can offer you, but the Bible has a lot to say about forgiveness in Matthew chapter 18. So we would recommend that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We do have a book entitled, Life in the Spirit, that talks about living an abundant life and part of that abundant life is, well, being able to turn these difficult experiences in life over to God, allowing God to deal with the situation. We’ll send that to anyone who calls. David, if you call our resource line just ask for the book, Life in the Spirit, and we’ll be happy to send that out to you. The number is 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the book, Life in the Spirit. Our next caller is Michael and he is listening in New Jersey on WMCA. Michael, welcome to the program.

Michael: Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross thank you very much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Get real close to your phone, and your question?

Michael: I'm having such a debate with a couple of hostile unbelievers and I have directed them to John 14, verse 15, and I have directed them to 1st John 2, verse 3. They questioned me about being saved through Christ and not having to follow the Commandments.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I don’t know why a person would say that once you’re saved you don’t need to follow the Commandments. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” We're not saved to turn from God and disobey. We're saved to follow Jesus; and Jesus said, “I’ve kept my Father’s commandments.”

A Christian is a follower of Christ in His example. The Bible tells us that He has given us an example, that we should walk even as He walked. So when someone says that you accept Christ but He doesn’t care whether or not you keep His commandments, we're not saved by keeping the law, we're saved to obey God. So we're not saved just…

Michael: So it goes hand in hand?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, they do. We're not saved to persistent in disobedience. We're saved by an act of grace, but then God gives us new hearts. We're new creatures and we walk no longer--Paul says in Romans chapter 8--we're no longer walking after the flesh but after the spirit. So if a person says, “Well I'm now saved and so I can commit adultery,” well they're deceiving themselves.

Michael: Amen and thank you Pastor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The apostle Paul in Romans 3, verse 31 makes it pretty clear when it says, “Do we make void the law through faith? Certainly not, on the contrary, we establish the law.” So faith in God actually results in a change of life, and that kind of life would be obedience to God’s law, the Ten Commandments.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Perfect book if you’d like to either read it online, Michael, or we’d be happy to send you a copy is, "Does God's Grace Blot Out the Law?" Some people think that there's a conflict between grace and obedience but they really go hand in hand. The idea that you're just saved by keeping the law, well that’s legalism.

The idea that you are saved by grace and so you deliberately disobey the law, well that’s presumption. That’s why James said, “Show me your faith without your works and I’ll show you my faith through my works.” So we’ve got two extremes still in the church today, nothing has changed. You've got your Sadducees and your Pharisees. It’s the balance of knowing we’re saved by grace to follow Jesus that is really the true spirit of it all.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That book again is entitled, "Does God's Grace Blot Out the Law?" If you call 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book we’ll be happy to send it you. "Does God's Grace Blot Out the Law?" We have Fred who is calling from Stamford, Connecticut, WMCA. Fred, welcome to the program.

Fred: Yes, thank you. I was wondering if you’ve ever heard the term "strategic giving" where you give so much and God, supposedly, is supposed to reciprocate on that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, we should never give to God’s work because we think then that God owes us and He’s going to give it back financially. We are always blessed when we give. Those blessings take on many forms. First and for most, I think there's a peace that comes in our hearts.

When people are faithful in paying tithe and offering, the Bible does say in Malachi chapter 3 that He will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing so we don’t have room enough to receive it; He doesn’t always promise that. I mean, that blessing could come back in God blessing our business and having even more financial resources, or the blessing could come through His just blessing our family and making our provisions go farther and blessing us with peace in our heart.

So I’m a little bit troubled when I hear pastors teach that if you give to God’s work, that now God is going to give you more money back than you gave. He can, but you can’t always interpret it that way.

Fred: Yes. I heard somebody talking about that but they didn’t elaborate on the strategy.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, like the apostles, they basically walked away from everything to follow the Lord. It doesn’t say that Peter’s boat was replaced with a yacht. The rich young ruler, Jesus said, “Sell what you have, give it to the poor, follow Me” and then He didn’t say, “I’ll give you more treasure.” He said, “You’ll have treasure in heaven.”

So we have to be careful against assuming that God’s blessings will always ricochet back in more money. It can, I’ve seen it happen that way, but that’s not an absolute principle.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Fred, we've got a study guide that deals with the subject of money and what the Bible has to say about it. If you’d like to receive that, call our resource line. It's 1-800-835-6747 and ask for study guide entitled, In God we Trust.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And that’s free tonight.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Absolutely. We have David listening from Georgia on the internet. David, welcome to the program.

David: Hi, how y'all doing?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well. Thanks for calling and your question?

David: When Jesus was on the cross and said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do,” was Judas Iscariot included, and if so, why did He say that it would have been better if he was never born?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I think Jesus was specifically talking about the soldiers that had been given the task of filling out an execution. They didn’t realize who it was they were executing. The religious leaders who had brought Jesus and turned Him over to Pilate, they knew better. That’s why Jesus said to Pilate, “He who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

You might even look that up. I forget what that reference is. I think it’s in John 19, maybe. So Jesus even told Pilate that Judas was more culpable because he knew what he was doing. By the way, by the time Jesus got to the cross Judas, I think, had already committed suicide.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That was John chapter 19, verse 11

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You want to read that real quick?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes. “Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against me, unless it were given unto you from above: therefore the one who delivered me to you has the greatest sin.”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That being both Judas and the religious leaders. The Roman soldiers that were given the task of executing Jesus, they didn’t realize what they were doing and Jesus said, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they are doing.”

David: Okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hey I appreciate that. Thanks for your question David.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Gill and he is listening from Queens, New York. Gill, welcome to the program.

Gill: Hi, good evening Jëan Ross and Doug Batchelor. God Bless, nice to speak to you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi Gill.

Gill: I wanted to ask a question about putting Jesus in every conversation every day, even with our kids or with our family. Some kids might say for example, "Oh, you know you guys don’t always have to talk about Jesus," but just how important it is, in light of these two verses, I want to share. In Matthew 5:16 Jesus said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” And the other one is Proverbs, let's see, 18:21. It says, “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.” I like the life part in the there.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. Now what is the question then? Is it a statement, or?

Gill: The question is how can we, like, either in the family or we have people over our house or maybe even non believers over, or, share with people Jesus in everyday situations? Or even teach our own kids…

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well I think…I’m sorry, go ahead.

Gill: ...and to even acknowledge Jesus in everyday situations. Like, for example, if I was a kid I might to you, “Dad, I was blessed today. I was nervous today and I was taking a test, but when I started praying Jesus, I wasn’t afraid anymore.” Things like that.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well you’ve got the example of Jesus talking to the woman at the well. Christ would sometimes take an everyday occasion and He’d use it an opportunity; but you have to read people, and also the situation.

Gill: That’s right. We call it evangelism, getting to know the people, yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. It’s important when you seen an opportunity to speak up for God and you want to, if possible, explore when you meet new people their interests and spiritual things. But at the same time you've got to be careful not to be obnoxious.

I’ve seen people that, even though those around them maybe were involved in some other conversation, they kept inserting spiritual things when the fish were not biting, and they kept at it until they started to just annoy the people. So you’ve got to pray that God will give you diplomacy and tact, and you want to have winsome attitude about representing Jesus so that you know when to say a word.

That’s why Peter talks about that we might know how to give you an answer when those right occasions come [cross talk]. We ought to know how to defend our faith but do it tactfully and ask for God to give us timing, or speak up for Jesus whenever there is an opening. Appreciate that Gill, thank you for your call tonight. Who’s lined up now?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright. We have George who is listening from Pinedale, Wyoming. George, welcome to the program.

George: Thank you Pastors and thank you for taking my call. My question is aimed at Ephesians chapter 2, verse 12 where Paul tells that the Gentiles were without hope, they were outside the commonwealth of Israel. So my question is, prior to the crucifixion and Christ’s offering, how did the Gentiles receive salvation if the Jews were so prejudiced of other nations? How did they partake in following God? Because many--as Jesus met the woman at the well--she believed in the Christ to come, but how did they participate?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well there were Gentiles that God saved even in Old Testament time. When Jesus began His ministry He went to His home church in Nazareth. He mentioned that there were many lepers in the land in the days of Elisha but none of the Jewish lepers were cleansed. It was Naaman, an Assyrian.

And then Jesus said there were many widows in the land in the days of the famine and Elijah, but Elijah was not sent to any of the Jewish widows. He was sent to a Canaanite widow up by Zidon or up by Tyre.

So Christ was emphasizing that God has His people, that their hearts are open everywhere; but the majority of the Gentiles were living in darkness without hope. It’s like in 1st Corinthians chapter 4 when Paul talks about death. He said, “We don’t need to sorrow as others that have no hope.”

A lot of people don’t know Jesus is coming again to create a new a heaven and a new earth. That’s why Paul calls it "the blessed hope," now abide faith, love and hope. So Paul is referring to that again here in Ephesians where he just said that they were outside the covenant promises, that God would save and forgive.

It doesn’t mean none of them were, but the majority of them were just in darkness. Unless angels revealed truth to them individually or God’s spirit, most of them just spent their lives wandering in darkness. That’s why we've got to take the gospel to people that don’t know because it’s the great hope. Did we lose--are you still there George? You there?

George: I'm here.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay. Did that help at all?

George: Yeah, yeah it did. Thanks a lot.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, appreciate it.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We’ve got a book talking about Spiritual Israel that, George, I think you’d find interesting and anyone who wants to learn more about this subject. If you’d call our resource line, 1-800-835-6747, you can ask for the book, Spiritual Israel. We’ll be happy to send that out to anyone who calls. Our next caller is Loretta and she’s listening in Savanna, Tennessee on WDNX. Loretta, welcome to the program.

Loretta: Yes, good evening Pastors.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening.

Loretta: I’ve got just a short question but before I give it, I’d like to say that most students don’t tell their teachers what grade they should get in their classes, but I think I should get an A from Bible Answers Live University.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Loretta: I got a call from a friend today and we got talking and she had quite a few questions. She asked about the thief on the cross and I was able to answer it. She asked about Cain and incest and I was able to answer that. She asked about other worlds, Mary ascending to heaven, just a plethora of things, to borrow your word, and I was just so thankful because I had the answers.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh praise the Lord

Loretta: I've listened to your class long enough to be able to share with her some of the Bible answers that you have there.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you’ll be prepared to co-host pretty soon because I'm getting old.

Loretta: Oh I don’t know about that. I don’t live in California but with technology I don’t need to live in California.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well we appreciate that Loretta. Your question tonight?

Loretta: Okay. In 1st Kings 13 I believe it is, where the prophet, I guess he causes the king’s hand to wither and then heals it.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, prophet from Judah.

Loretta: Yeah. Was that Rehoboam?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well the king he goes to is Jeroboam.

Loretta: Jeroboam, okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: But it never gives the prophet’s name. It just says a prophet came from Judah.

Loretta: Correct, correct. My question is this, now he was told not to go, stop--don’t pass, don’t collect $200--and not eat or drink anything in town, but the other prophet, or I guess he was a past prophet, came and sent him a message and he went over there. The prophesy ended up true where he was killed I guess by the lions. My question is the second prophet, the one that had lured him over there, why was it that he was not punished?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, we don’t know. The Bible doesn’t record what happened to him later. That’s a good question, and he may have been punished because he lied. He wanted to just get more information on what this prophesy was that had come from the Lord to Jeroboam, obviously the Spirit of God was with him. He kind of beguiled the guy to come into his house.

Well the word of Lord had told the prophet from Judah, “Don’t eat bread or drink water. Don't even go back by the same road that you came on but turn and go home another way.” In other words, "This land is defiled while they're involved in adultery and I don’t want you to support the people there until they turned."

So when he stopped and he said, “Oh well, this other guy says he’s got some fresh information," that’s a lesson for us that when we know what the word of the Lord is and somebody who is part of an apostate group, that other false prophet from the northern kingdom of Israel, maybe he was also an apostate prophet, when he lied to him, he should have said, “You know, God is not going to send me a message from these people I just pronounced a curse on.”

Loretta: So he knew the issues with this being an apostate, uh…

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think that in his heart he knew that he should not stop, but he was hungry and tired and so he did.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The story that comes to mind is the story of Balaam. You remember the king Balak who sent messages to Balaam to ask him to come curse the children of Israel? Balaam really wanted to go but God said, “No, you can’t go.” So he reluctantly conveyed the message at first.

Then the king’s representatives came back a second time. And finally God said, “Alright you can go,” because that’s really what Balaam wanted. I'm wondering in this case with this prophet, he knew what God wanted and yet he was perhaps looking for a reason to skirt around that; and the perfect opportunity came where this false prophet said, "Oh, I have a message from God. You need to stay and eat."

So there is a lesson in there for us. Whatever happened to him? The Bible doesn’t say but, doubtless, he’ll be judged according to his works.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, unless he repented because it was the word of the Lord from that other prophet.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That’s right, that's right.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Years later the rest of that story is that when Josiah the king--everything that prophet said happened. He prophesied that a king would come along by the name Josiah that would burn the bones of those false priests on those altars that they had made to the golden calves in Dan and Bethel, and everything that that prophet said happened.

When Josiah, oh it must have been a couple hundred years later, when Josiah was born, this is one of the times in the Bible when a king is being predicted, it's two times. I think Cyrus was predicted by name, and Josiah. God said a king would come, what his name would be, what he would do. When he was digging up the graves of all these false prophets and burning their bones, they found the grave of the prophet from Judah. They found the marker I guess still on it and he said, “Don’t disturb his bones.”

Well he was buried; the prophet from Judah was buried in the same grave as the man who had deceived him. It’s kind of interesting. So you wonder if that other false prophet had repented or whatever. But it’s a very interesting and a difficult story. So Loretta, I don’t know if we prepared any better to answer that one next time, but hope it helped a little bit and we appreciate your calling in.

Hey friends, we're going to be taking more questions in just a few minutes. We always take a break about half way through the program. We still have a line or two open and the number again is 1-800-463-7297. This is Bible Answers Live.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know Pastor Doug, just before our break actually comes upon us here in just a few moments, tomorrow morning early you’re going to be heading down to Tennessee and I’ll be coming on Tuesday this week for some exciting programming that’s going to be happening there starting on Thursday evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes. We are excited and we appreciate everybody’s prayers. We’ll be doing a program called, The Ultimate Purpose, from the campus of the Southern Adventist University there in their gym. We’re going to be up linking that on television around the world on Three Angles Broadcasting, doing four programs that are dealing specifically with the purposes of life.

We're going to be talking about what is truth. How did we get here, creation, evolution, in other words, where did we come from? Did God make us? Why is there battle between good and evil in the world? Then how do we know God’s will, where am I going? Can’t have any security unless you understand those three great questions of where did I come from, what I am doing here and where am I going?

Friends, nothing is more valuable than truth and we’ll be talking about that during this program called, The Ultimate Purpose. You can watch it on 3ABN. More information is at Amazing Facts' website. The music doesn’t mean we are leaving. We're just taking a break. More questions in a moment.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: Chances are some of you joined us along the way. This is Bible Answers Live. We do our best to take your live Bible questions and find answers from the Word of God. If you have a question, a couple of lines are still open, 1-800-GOD-SAYS, 1-800-463-7297. We’ve mentioned this every now and then, we do our best to take as many questions as we can.

Some of you ask just such tremendous questions it would take a whole hour to give them a good answer so forgive us if we ever sound like we are brief. We're just trying to give quick answers, provide study resources for follow-up study to give you more detail and then we go on to the next question. So that’s kind of our modus operandus here. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. We're going to go straight to the phone lines. We’ve got Craig who is listening in Des Moines, Iowa. Craig, welcome to the program.

Craig: Yes, hello. I called you last week. I’ve called you several times actually. I had a question, but unfortunately the guy from Wyoming that called in had the same exact question I did.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Did you think of a new question?

Craig: Yeah, yeah I did. I’ve always got questions for you guys. I'm full of questions. Yeah, I’ve talked to you about this once before a long time ago Pastor Doug. It's about the other translations of the Bible. I have a real problem with ministers or churches or anybody that even condones anything other than King James Version, because if you study it and see the Bible comparisons, there's a woman that has dedicated her life to that and she's online but I’m not going mention her name. But anyway, the King James even has changes that are the same as Jehovah’s Witnesses--the New King James I mean--has changes the same as Jehovah’s Witnesses. They omit the power of God, constantly changing Jesus to He or Him, changing God to He or Him, all kinds of examples.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know Craig, I’m reading a book right now. I just downloaded it to my iPad and I’m hoping to read some more of it on the airplane tomorrow. It’s a history of the English translations. They take a position similar to what you take, maybe not as strong, but they take a similar position that the translations that come from the manuscripts other than the Textus Receptus have some dubious conclusions.

The name of the book, I don’t mind recommending it, so far it seems to be pretty scholarly, is called The History of the English Bible. You might enjoy that. It’s not that old of a book. But yeah, I’ve done studies on this for years. I’ve read the books that you’ve talked about. Matter of fact, some friends just gave me a stack of books on that subject.

Here on our program we pretty much, as you know, we pretty much use the King James. Right now I’ve got my computer open to the King James, but we do sometimes look at other translations because there's an occasional place where the King James gives an archaic translation. I know about some of the dangers and so we try to give a more accurate one. But do we still have that book? It's uh...

Pastor Jëan Ross: Called The Ultimate Resource, is that what you’re thinking about?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes we do. Craig, if you’ve not read this book we encourage you to call and we’ll send it to you for free. The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, The Ultimate Resource, talking about the Bible. We’ll send it to anyone who gives us a call, 1-800-835-6747. The book again is, The Ultimate Resource. We're going to go to Sarah who is listening in Brooklyn, New York and she is listening on WMCA. Sarah, welcome to the program.

Sarah: Yes, welcome, welcome Pastor Batchelor. I’m the lady that, on my birthday, July 31st--I’ll be very fast--on my 88th birthday, there was knocking on the door of my heart and I closed my eyes and I kept saying, “Let me in, let me in;” I did, and, "Happy birthday," singing, "happy birthday. Let’s have a party and a birthday cake that said, '88 two candles.' 'Who am I? It’s Jesus. I’ve been waiting for you for 88 years.'" Sure enough…

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That’s a wonderful testimony, Sarah, that you invited Jesus in after 88 years. Now what is your question tonight?

Sarah: My question is this. I was baptized last Sunday. I have a teleconference program of Jewish orthodox women and I’m going to possibly be on the radio. Just like in terms of Abraham and Isaac, when he was told to sacrifice him and he said, “Stop,” and there was a lamb, that was Jesus. So my question is, where is Jesus hidden behind the curtain throughout the five books?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, well let me give you a couple of ideas. Jesus appears in many symbolic terms through the five books of Moses. Moses is a type of Jesus, now follow me. Moses came from three children. He had Aaron, Miriam, Moses, not in that order, it's Miriam, Aaron and Moses. That’s almost like a type of the Trinity.

Moses is drawn from the water. Even though he is born of slaves, he never served as a slave. Even though Jesus was born of humans, He never sinned, He never was a slave to sin. Moses saved his people. He went up a mountain, he came back down. Jesus went up to heaven, He said, “I will come again.”

Jesus said, “If you think the Son of man delays His coming and you eat and drink with the drunken, that will be serious.” When Moses went up the mountain, it says that the people thought he delayed coming back and they got into trouble with the golden calf. When Joshua led the people in the battle, Moses stood on a mountain with his arms stretched out and when they saw Moses with his arms stretched out, they won the battle.

Moses is a type of Christ in so many ways; as is Joseph, who you find in the Pentateuch, betrayed by his brothers for the price of slave, like Jesus. You find that he came from twelve brothers, like Christ said, the twelve apostles. He forgave them as Jesus forgives. He fed the whole world as Jesus feeds us with the bread of life, many parallels of Joseph and Jesus.

There are many more. We could talk about Enoch and Moses. It’s like Paul says in Hebrews, “What shall I more say?” It goes on and on. But like I said, I've got a book coming out soon Sarah. It’s going to be talking about Christ in all the Bible; and congratulations on your baptism. God bless you! And who’s next in line?

Pastor Jëan Ross: We’ve got Rison calling from Albuquerque, New Mexico listening on Life Talk. Rison, welcome to the program.

Rison: Good evening again Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening.

Rison: It’s nice to see you guys online. This is the first time I’ve seen Pastor Doug wearing a hat and you guys look good tonight. Anyway...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well they've got the studios all air conditioned and so, even though it’s still warm here in Sacramento, I got my sweat shirt on. They've got to keep the equipment cool. It cools me down. Anyway, your question?

Rison: Yeah, it's amazing sir. Nice to see you guys on top talking to you too. Anyway, my question is about judging people. When you say that people will perish; when they do certain things, they will call you judgmental. But I figured out that whenever we do jury duty we judge people and there are a lot judges there that, you know, they judge people who have committed crimes. Now, what do you have to say about being judgmental Pastor Doug? I mean, is that a sin?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, probably the most often quoted verse in the Bible is not John 3:16. It’s the verse where Jesus said judge not. All kinds of unbelievers quote that verse that says, “Judge not,” but they often misquote it. Jesus said that if you're going to judge, judge with a righteous judgment. So there is a time to actually judge. And that, by the way, is John 7:24, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

Paul said, “Don’t you know that the righteous are going to judge the world?" They'll be judging angels. So there's a number of examples where talks about--here, let me give that one--that’s 1st Corinthians 6:2, 3, 4. “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know we will judge angels? How much more are those things that pertain to this life.”

So there is a time where everybody uses judgment. Judging is not a sin. Christ is really talking about don’t be condemning people, that kind of judgment.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well you know there's a difference between judging somebody’s works. The Bible says you shall know them by their works...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Fruits.

Pastor Jëan Ross: ...their fruits, yup, and judging somebody by their works versus actually questioning their motive. We don’t know the heart, only God knows the heart; but we should be able to determine or know that what he’s done, whether it be right or whether it be wrong, by simply looking at the Word of God, seeing if what has been done is matching with the Word of God.

But we can’t condemn somebody because we just don’t know their heart. So there is a difference.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We have a book that talks about facing the judge. There's a lot on the subject of judgment in that so people can get a balanced view. It is wrong to be condemning and passing judgment on others, but we use discretion and judgment every day. So the Lord wants us to, expects us to. So we’ll be happy to send you, Rison, a free copy of that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747 and the study guide again is entitled, Facing the Judge. Our next caller is Henry and he’s listening on the Internet from Watson, California. Henry, welcome to the program.

Henry: Hi there!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening.

Henry: Yeah hi. First of all, I’m firm believer in all of us going through the tribulation, you know, the saved and lost; but in the book of Revelation chapter 15, John said that he saw the saints of God who had a won the victory over the beast and they were singing the songs of Moses and having the harps of God. But in Revelation 16 then it talks about the seven last plagues were being poured out. So I’m wondering, you know, how does that--is that in chronicle order?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good question.

Henry: You know what I mean?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup. The Revelation is not written in chronological order. One of the principles in Bible prophesy--and you find it way back in Genesis--is that with the way that the Jews write the Bible, first they give the headlines, then they backup and give more detail, and then sometimes they’ll back up and give even finer print.

For instance, in Genesis it talks about how God made man, male and female He made them. Then you go to chapter two and it says, "Now the man didn’t have a wife so he named all the animals and said, 'Something’s missing.'"

Then it tells us a story about Eve being created in more detail. Well, it’s not in chronological order because the first chapter has got everyone being created; then it backs up and it’s giving detail about that sixth day of creation. So you’ll find in Daniel, Daniel outlines the history of world kingdoms through several images, or several visions.

One is Daniel 2, this metallic image; then you’ve got Daniel 7 where it talks about these four animals, a lion, a bear, a leopard and this monstrous beast; then you've got Daniel 8 where it talks about a goat and a ram covering the same history, backs up and it covers the same history and goes a little farther with a little more detail. Revelation does the same thing. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, also in Revelation, the way it's written, John would describe something on the earth and then he describes something in heaven. Then he goes back to the earth, and back to heaven. For example, in Revelation chapter 1 John sees Jesus in heaven standing by the seven-branch candlesticks; and then in chapter two and three his focus is on the earth and the condition of the church. And then chapter four and five, his focus is again in heaven.

So you get this heaven earth, heaven earth, back and forth. In chapter 15 the focus is on heaven. It describes those who are victorious, and then chapter 16 backs up a little bit and gives you events taking place on earth, that those who were just described being in heaven, what they go through and how they overcome.

So, we just need to recognize that John is taken to heaven, to earth, to heaven, back and forth. That’s not in a chronological order.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hopefully that helps a little bit. We may have lost--oh, it’s Henry we're to, yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You still there?

Henry: Yeah, I'm here.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Did that make sense?

Henry: Well yeah, but then it says after his saw then he said, “...And after this I saw….” So that’s why I thought it was an older, you know…

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right. Well he's telling us what he sees in vision. It’s not telling us that these visions are all given in a sequential order because he’s obviously looking into the future. So the Lord is giving him several photographs that aren’t stacked in order. They're just giving panorama, a prophetic history.

Henry: But do we know that, I mean, do we know that’s for like… [Cross talk]

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You know what? Let me give you just some thoughts from Matthew 24. The fact that Jesus says, “He that endures to the end will be saved,” leads us to believe that the Christians will have to endure something. Again He says, “You will be hated of all nations for My names sake,” that there would be a time when all of the believers would be hated for Christ’s sake.

I’ve got a book I can send you and it’s called, Anything But Secret, and it not only talks about the coming of Lord, it talks about the tribulation and where that fits into the second coming. It’s called, Anything But Secret. I’ll be happy to send you a free copy.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747 and the book, Anything But Secret, 1-800-835-6747. Our next caller is Yolanda and she is listening from Sacramento. Yolanda, welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yolanda?

Yolanda: Hi Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi, there you are. And your question?

Yolanda: I have a question. My question is about slavery in the Bible. I’ve been going back and forth with a friend about this issue who's not a believer. And I went and studied it out myself just so I can be informed about it. It appears that the Bible actually has no condemnation towards slavery. Do you have any insight on that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I don’t think that slavery is God’s plan. You look at God’s original plan, and you have that in two places: Garden of Eden before there was sin and then in heaven where there is no more pain and suffering and sorrow. In between God’s original plan in heaven, man and the devil messed things up. So Jesus said, “At the times of ignorance, God winks at.” Actually Jesus said because of the hardness of our hearts God permitted certain things.

For instance, it was never God’s will for a man to have multiple wives at the same time, right? If you want to know what is His original plan, He made one wife for man. He didn’t make a harem. Jesus said because of the hardness of our hearts He made laws about divorce, and because of the hardness of our hearts He made laws where if man had multiple wives that they would be treated fairly.

So it wasn’t that He was condoning it. He was just basically saying, “Look, I know what the prevalent practice is.” So, because slavery was universal through the first 4,000 years or,--more than that--almost 5,000 years of earth’s history, God made laws to protect slaves. Even in the Ten Commandments it says that the slave was supposed to rest, or the servant.

The laws regarding employee/employer are very different now than they were for the first 5,000 years but God never endorsed slavery. I think God wanted it to be abolished and it’s reprehensible. So do you see what I'm saying? God never wanted divorce, but He knew people were going to do it and so He made laws regarding it, and Jesus made that pretty clear.

Yolanda: I understand. There is a verse though in the Old Testament. I can’t cite the reference. Its somewhere in Leviticus I believe, where the Bible says that if a slave owner brutalizes the slave and he dies that day that the slave master could be punished, but if the slave dies day or two later, then no consequences occur to the slave master.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, that is a difficult passage. It's talking there about--well for one thing, if it was deliberate is what they’re dealing with. Was this premeditated or was it something that got out of hand? Either way, it seems to me that it kind of looks like murder. It’s a difficult passage.

Yolanda: Okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah. They had some laws that if a slave is set free--so they had laws where slaves where set free every seven years. If a slave was set free, if he loved his master and he wanted to remain a slave, he’d go through a ritual where he’d have his ear poked to the door of the house and he’d be a slave forever, and he was doing that willfully. So it’s a difficult culture to embrace in our world today, but it was pretty commonplace. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright. Our next caller is calling from Honolulu, Hawaii. We have a Hello listening on 99.5. Hello, welcome to the program.

Hello: Oh hello.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi.

Hello: Hi. Isn't it true that the righteous dead are promised that they will never die? Isn't it true that in John 11 and Revelation chapter 6 that the dead are alive talking back and forth to God? And isn’t it true that the party that came up that the witch of Endor brought up was really Samuel talking? Because nobody can predict all 100% future like that party did at Endor. That party predicted that Saul and his son would be killed and predicted the future at 100%...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, well let’s take them one at a time. So the story of the witch of Endor, you’re wondering was that actually Samuel that appeared, that the witch was able to resurrect Samuel somehow or at least bring up his spirit and that spirit gave a prophesy to Saul.

Because this spirit gives a prophesy to Saul and Saul dies the next day, first of all, Saul was already afraid he was going to lose the battle. That’s why he went to the witch. The Philistines greatly outnumbered the Israelites in this battle. A lot of the forces had already come over to David, and so it wasn’t that wild of a prophesy to guess that.

Secondly, the very fact that Saul listened to the witch, he separated himself from God’s power and the devil sometimes makes prophesies that come true. But the Bible tells us that what Saul was consulting was a familiar spirit. That’s the term it's using for, like a seance and talking with demons. Pastor Ross may have that reference where it talks about the witch of Endor and says that Saul was condemned for…

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah. That’s 1st Samuel 28:3. It says, “Now Samuel was dead and all of Israel lamented for him.” It goes on. It says, “Saul had put away those who had familiar spirits and wizards from the land.”

So there was a period of time where Saul actually followed the council that God had given, and then at the end of his life he goes and consults somebody who has a familiar spirit. I'm looking for that verse there Pastor Doug. You might have it.

Hello: The Bible says that was Samuel that came up.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: No. 1st Chronicles 10:13, “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not,” and here is why Saul died, “and for asking council of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it.”

It wasn’t Samuel. It was an "it;" and he was talking to probably a fallen devil, a fallen angel or one of Satan’s devils. You have to ask yourself, "Does the devil have power to resurrect God’s saints?"

Hello: Okay I agree, but you have state that the Bible says that was--"and Samuel came up."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well it tells us that there's this apparition that comes up.

Hello: Oh. My King James Version says Samuel.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: No, I know that, no, I agree. It does say that. I'm just saying that you read it in context and what is "it"? Saul says in verse seven of 1st Samuel chapter 28, “I want to find a woman that has a familiar spirit.” So this is the very kind of seance, Ouija board, channeling stuff that God forbids because devils take advantage of that.

Hello: Oh.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, just to follow up on that a little bit Pastor Doug. You mentioned also in the book of Revelation where it speaks about souls under the altar crying out saying, “How long until you avenge our blood?” Well we've got to remember that Revelation is symbolic book. There are no white horses galloping across the sky.

These souls under the altar, those who are saved are not bound under an altar in heaven, lying at the base of an altar, but again, its symbolic. Just like the blood of Abel we read in Genesis "cried out" from the ground, so the lives of those who had been martyred calls for justice, and it will happen. God will judge.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Who would want to be a soul in heaven crying? I mean, you’ve got saved souls in heaven crying? And they're bound underneath an altar? This is symbolic imagery of just people who are crying. Its justice crying out, really, for vindication. So God keeps a record of whatever happens to His saints and He said He's not going to forget that. It’s indicative of that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We've got a book dealing with the subject called, Spirits of the Dead. We’ll send that out to anyone who calls and asks for it. The number is 1-800-835-6747. Again, the book is entitled, Spirits of the Dead, and we’ll be happy to send that out. Also, take a look at the website, That’s

Pastor Doug Batchelor: They say when you're interpreting Bible prophesy that a day is a year. When we do this radio program, 60 minutes feels like about 20 minutes. It just does go so fast, and our time is almost up again friends.

Please be praying for the upcoming meetings called, Up Ultimate Purpose. The Up meetings will be broadcast from Southern University there in Collegedale, Tennessee on Three Angles Broadcasting beginning Thursday night this week. You can look for the times at the Amazing Facts' website. There will be the information there on the subjects and the times.

Also, please remember we do this program because people like you keep us on the air. If you're one of our friends and partners, we really appreciate what you’ve done and we’d love to hear from you. Go to If you’d like to make a donation to keep us going, just click where it says "Donate Online." God Bless you friends and we’ll continue to study together.


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