Surviving a Deadly Fall

Surviving a Deadly Fall

Date: 04/15/2007 
In Detroit, sometime in the spring of 1935, a young and evidently careless mother must have been eternally grateful to a man named Joseph Figlock. As Figlock was walking down the street, the mother's baby fell from a high window onto Figlock.

The Life of Victory by Meade MacGuire

The Life of Victory by Meade MacGuire
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Pastor Doug: Hello friends. This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In Detroit, sometime in the spring of 1935, a young and evidently careless mother must have been eternally grateful to a man named Joseph Figlock. As Figlock was walking down the street, the mother's baby fell from a high window onto Figlock. The baby's fall was broken by the stunned man but incredibly both man and baby were unharmed. This was obviously a stroke of remarkable providence but here's where the story becomes truly astonishing. A year later, the very same baby now a heavier toddler fell from the very same window onto poor unsuspecting, you guessed it, Joseph Figlock as he was again passing beneath and again they both survived the event.

Another story with a remarkable twist, in the early 1900's a light house keeper in Scotland was cleaning the outside lamp around the lighthouse. When the rusted railing gave way, the terrified man fell 130 feet. When he opened his eyes he looked up dazed at the blue sky with white puffy clouds and wondered if he was in heaven but eventually he collected his wits and discovered that he had survived the fall because he landed on a sheep that had been peacefully grazing below the lighthouse. The sheep did not survive. The Bible teaches there is another lamb that gave up its life to save us from a deadly fall. Stay tuned friends as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.

[Background Music Playing]

[PROGRAM INTRODUCTION]

Pastor Doug: I am not exactly sure why you're listening to this frequency right now except that I believe providencially God had designed it either by your choice or by accident or getting ready to talk about the most important things in the world and the most important things to heaven. That’s a subject to God and eternal life and his plan for your life. You are listening to Bible Answers Live. And this is a 60 minute program where we come together and talk about the word of God. We invite you to call in your Bible questions and we will do our best to find the answers about truth together as we search the Scriptures. If you have a Bible question, we still have lines open. It's time to pick up your phone and get your question on. It's a free phone call 800-463-7297. And I am Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening listening friends. Pastor Doug, let’s start with a prayer. Once again, Lord, before we begin this program, we ask for your special guidance. We recognized that in order to understand your word. We need the Holy Spirit. So be with us, be with those who's listening and those who call in. For this we ask in Jesus name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Jean Ross: The amazing fact that opened the program this evening, an incredible story of someone who landed on somebody else and actually, they were saved: not only this child that fell out of the window and then the lighthouse keeper that fell on a sheep.

Pastor Doug: That’s right. You could imagine how thankful that man was that his life was spared even though I'm sure he felt sorry for the lost of the lamb. But it reminds me in the Bible of the story where Abraham and Isaac are walking up that mountain together on the way to the place of sacrifice. And Isaac is maybe becoming suspicious that something’s wrong because the Father has not yet revealed to him that the son has been ordained by God to be the sacrifice. And he says the Father we've got the wood for the burnt offering and we have the tools to make the fire but where is the lamb. And Abraham responds in Genesis 22:7, “My son, God will provide himself a lamb.” And then you get into the New Testament and just as Christ begins his ministry right around the time of the baptism, John the Baptist points to Jesus on a more than one occasion, John chapter 1, he says "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world." The human race has fallen and God had placed the sin of the whole race on Jesus. But the only way that his sacrifice will do you any good friends is you need to cashed the check, you need to make a conscious decision to accept Jesus, to surrender your will to him, to invite him to be the ruler, the monarch in the heart of your life, in your mind and he will activate his plan for your life. And maybe you've not done that before but everything we're talking about during this Bible Answers program revolves on the access of that simple truth. That God so love the world that he sent his son to be a lamb to take the brunt of our fall that we might survive. And we have a free offer tonight to talk about how to get to heaven in those steps.

Jean Ross: We have an Amazing Facts booklet that is free to anyone wanting to know more about what is involved with salvation. What do I have to do? The title of this booklet is "3 Steps to Heaven" and clearly gives the different steps that we take in coming to God, receiving forgiveness and experiencing repentance and so on. You can receive this free. Just call the resource number. The number is 1-800-835-6747 and asks for the little booklet "3 Steps to Heaven." We'd be happy to send that out.

Pastor Doug: You know, it's interesting. People would go all over the country and they'll be buying lotto tickets hoping that they can acquire a treasure. And what's really tragic is that only one... Someone told me one time, you have a better chance of getting bitten a shark on dry land than winning the lottery. The chances are pretty small to win big. It does occasionally happen. That's what keep turning people but here we are telling people, friends, if you call this number, we will give you a book and it is a map to treasure much more than any lottery. It’s a gift. And it's not one in a billion chances. You can have it if you take those steps. Why wouldn't someone want that?

Jean Ross: That’s right. Absolutely. Jesus, the lamb, died not just for a select few but for everyone.

Pastor Doug: Whose so ever will, let him come.

Jean Ross: All right. The number again is 1-800-835-6747. Ask for that resource "3 Steps to Heaven." We have two internet questions tonight. Pastor Doug, the first one: Does the Bible has anything to say about Christian people marrying people of other religions?

Pastor Doug: Well, yes. First of all, it's typically true even within most Christian denominations. For instance, Catholics traditionally will not marry their men not only to people from other religions. Catholics they used to not allow Catholics to marry other Christians from other denominations. Baptist, pastors used to be taught you can’t marry a Baptist to a Presbyterian or to a Methodist. I mean they said in other beliefs. There’s differences and it creates tension in the family. I obviously some denominations are closer than others. What about you know, I know of many friends especially in New York where you've got an even concentration of Jews and Catholics where Catholics and Jews marry. Boy, it creates a little bit of confusion.

Jean Ross: Yup.

Pastor Doug: Yeah cause religions are so different. And I supposed occasionally you might even find a Jew and Islam marry. That would not be popular probably with their families so Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 6:14, "Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers." First of all, Christians should not be marrying non-Christians but beyond that, it's difficult if you're marrying someone from a vastly different denomination cause it creates confusion in how you fulfill your obligations. And if you believe in different things in your heart and you need to accommodate your spouse by alternating between two churches or one needs to sacrifice their beliefs, that causes problems. Another thing. Jesus quoting Amos, he said, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" A husband and wife wanna walk in the same direction. And one of the first things I ask when I began to date Karen was you know: What is your heritage? What is her beliefs? And she had the same beliefs as me. I'm sure there's some minor variations but you know the parcels the same. So that's a very important thing. Otherwise, it causes conflict.

Jean Ross: You know we have a study guide, I just thought of the one entitled, "Keys to a Happy Marriage."

Pastor Doug: Perfect.

Jean Ross: Which probably deals with the subject in more detail for those wondering about that. And you can receive that study guide free again by calling the resource number 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the amazing Facts study guide, "Keys to a Happy Marriage." The second question that we have is, "How can we be sure that the Bible is error proof and fully trustworthy?"

Pastor Doug: You know I was listening on a message on the radio today from another preacher I like to listen to Christian Radio and this pastor was saying "there really is only one thing in this world that we can look upon as supernatural." You know there's a lot of fairy tales out there about a supernatural sword you can pull from a stone or supernatural crystals with magical powers or a crystal ball. You know some kind of magic coat, magic wardrobe and all these supernatural things that people talk about that are fanciful. But there really is one supernatural thing in our world. And it would be the Bible. God has a supernatural way preserved and protected his message to humanity in this sacred book. That's why it's called the Holy Bible. And how can we know it's trustworthy? Well there are many ways. The support of history-- I just did a lesson this week on archeology confirming the Bible and I ran out of time cause there's so much evidence for the people, the places, the history of the Bible being accurate. It is the most accurate history book scientifically. And most importantly, the Bible is accurate in a way that it transforms lives radically.

Jean Ross: Probably one of the greatest evidences--

Pastor Doug: All right. Let me tell you a story. Just this week I met somebody who goes to church you and I go to, well I met him a few weeks ago, back at church this week and I saw him just yesterday. And this man could not read or write, never learned. And had a lot of trouble in his life, grown man, over 50 at that time and one day he was just praying, he surrendered his life to the Lord. He said "Lord, I wanna know what your will is for my life." And he had a Bible in his hands. He said Lord I sure wish I could understand this. He couldn't read. He said he couldn't read a road sign. And all of a sudden, he's just flipping through the pages and he's hearing voices. And he looked around, there's no voices. He's looking at the page again, he starts to hearing things. And it occurred to him, he was reading. And he said—He swore to me. He said, “I'm telling you the truth. I just started reading and I now know how to read the Bible.”

Jean Ross: Wow.

Pastor Doug: I mean it is supernatural, miraculous. And what it did for me, I you know it was the Bible that changed my life. So looking at history, looking at the documentation, the evidence, the assembly of the books, the science, the Bible is trustworthy and it's accurate.

Jean Ross: You know we have a study guide that deals with the Bible as well. It's the foundation of our study and we need to be able to trust the Bible. It's called "Is There Anything Left That You Can Trust".

Pastor Doug: "Anything Left You Can Trust".

Jean Ross: "Anything Left You Can Trust" and it's free. Call the resource number and ask for that. It deals with the Bible "Anything Left that You Can Trust" The number 1-800-835-6747. We'll be happy to send that out to you. And we go to the phone lines. Our first caller of this evening, Marvin is calling from Spokane, Washington. Welcome to the program.

Marvin: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hello, Marvin.

Marvin: Yes, I’d like to know where is the Bible say about women being ordained to the ministry and to perform marriages and baptism.

Pastor Doug: All right. Well, I appreciate that. That’s a good question, Marvin. We periodically get that. There are lots of examples in the Bible of God speaking through women such as prophets like Miriam, and Huldah, and Anna and many others. And you have evidence in the Bible of God using women in positions of leadership like Deborah. But there is no example in the Bible of a woman being ordained as a priest, a pastor, an apostle and elder that is a consistently patriarchal relationship. Or function and so it's typically ordained ministers that do the sacred ceremonies such as baptism and marriage. So I think there is an inconsistency there that it should be ordained ministers in the absence of any example in the Bible of a woman being ordained to that capacity. I think that it's inconsistent with Scripture. You know we have an article Marvin. You can go to our website. And I know it's a sensitive subject but I just got to stick to the Bible friends. The article is called "Unisex in Jesus?" question mark and if you go to the Amazing Facts website, simply, amazingfacts.org, click on the link that says ‘Free Library’ and then go to the magazine articles. You'll find that article.

Jean Ross: All right. Thank you for your call, Marvin. Let's go to our next caller Danny is calling from Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the program, Danny.

Danny: Thank you. I got a quick question. I was gonna hang up and listen to the answer offline but I notice at what I hear on hold differs from what I hear on 3ABN. Why is that?

Pastor Doug: Well, you probably getting a time delay for one thing and some...

Danny: It's completely 2 different topics.

Pastor Doug: Oh well... I tell you what could be happening. Sometimes, because of weather conditions, a station maybe broadcasting a formally recorded program as said, this is going by satellite. And sometimes there's varying weather conditions and sometimes there's technical problems and if they'll have those problems, they would take an old program and they'll upload an old program so sorry about that.

Danny: Here's my quick question. I will hang on to listen to your answer because I won’t be able to hear it from there.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Danny: Yeah, when Jesus in John chapter 6, it's recorded that he said you know, “Unless you eat of my body and drink my blood, you have no part in me.” Well, if he meant it figuratively, everyone else you know when they walk away, he could have said, "Hey people, I didn’t mean it literally." You know, I just wonder what the reason is that many Christians do not believe in the real presence of—

Pastor Doug: All right.

Danny: --in the Eucharist.

Pastor Doug: Well, first of all, when Christ made that statement, "Accept you drink of my blood and eat of my flesh, you have no life in you," everything else in the Bible tells us that cannibalism is an abomination to God. As a matter of fact, God doesn't even want us eating unclean animals let alone other humans. At the Last Supper, Danny, when Jesus actually says, “This is my body. This is my blood," that's when it becomes exceedingly obvious it's a symbol because Jesus is sitting there in his entirety. He doesn’t have bites out of him. He’s not draining blood through an IV into a cup. He says, "Take this cup” and it was grape juice, “and drink of it. Take this bread. It is my body. This is my blood” and that's when it becomes really clear. It must be a symbol because he's still there in his bodily form. Did that make sense?

Danny: Hmmm...

Pastor Doug: Sort of. Pastor Jean is gonna take a run at it.

Jean Ross: Yeah, let me just say a little bit more about that specific instance that you’re referring to in John chapter 6 where Jesus says, "Accept to eat my flesh, drink of my blood, you have no part with me” and so on. And then it says many of those that followed him, left him. And the disciples, the 12 disciples, wondered about this and began to murmur amongst themselves, “What does this mean?" Then Jesus goes further to explain what he had said the first time. And he says in John chapter 6 verse 63, “It is the spirit that quicken it. The flesh profits nothing. The word that I spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life.”

Pastor Doug: There you go.

Jean Ross: So Jesus defines what it means when he said eat up my flesh, drink of my blood. It’s to receive his word. Jeremiah chapter 15 verse 16, the prophet writes “Thy words were found and I did eat them and thy were unto me the joy and rejoicing of my heart.” So it's speaking about the word of God to eat the word is to receive it to (inaudible 17:42).

Pastor Doug: And then Christ said men doesn’t live by bread alone but by every word.

Jean Ross: Right.

Pastor Doug: And Jesus says, “I am the bread that came down from heaven," and again it's a symbol of words so. The bread and the wine are symbols for the truth and the sacrifice of Jesus, his life. That cleanses us but you know the Bible is never endorsing cannibalism so it's a symbol obviously. I hope that helps a little bit, Danny, but we've given our best shot and the time we have budgeted.

Jean Ross: Our next caller is Danny listening on WMCA, this time from Jersey City, New Jersey. Danny, welcome to the program.

Danny: Hi. How are you?

Pastor Doug: You've got a popular name. [Danny laughs] I've got a son named Daniel. And your question tonight?

Danny: Yeah, it’s a reference there in chapter 33 verse 7.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Danny: It says “He was oppressed and he was afflicted, he opened not his mouth. He brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he didn’t open his mouth.” Can you break that down to me? Like especially the latter part where it says what is that a symbol of? Who is her shearers and why did the sheep had done and opened his mouth? Who is the shears supposed to be the symbol of? The people that persecuting you. Is it the church leaders that (inaudible 19:07) you?

Pastor Doug: Let me... That’s a good question. First of all, I don’t know if you ever work with sheep’s or seen this before but when sheep are being sheared, they flipped them up on their back. And something about their anatomy, they cannot bleak when they are upside down and they become a lot more docile. So they just almost allow the shearer to shear them. There's something about their anatomy. I've seen it before. I’ve done it before where you flipped them on their back and they suddenly become very docile and meek. The other thing is the wool of the sheep, it's a symbol of the righteousness of Christ and when Jesus came to the cross, the enemies took away his clothing and they gambled for it. The only thing Jesus left behind was his bloodstained robe. It is the robe of Christ’s righteousness that he sacrificed that covers our sin. That's a symbol of the sheep losing its skin or its fleas that others might be clothe and without complaint. They put on their back, they're sheared, they don’t complain. Jesus allowed his righteousness to be taken. He took our sin that we might be covered.

Danny: Okay. So you said... Is that... What’s that cotton, right? What is--

Pastor Doug: It’s wool.

Danny: Excuse me. I’m sorry. Its wool

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Danny: Okay. Wool, you say, is clothing?

Pastor Doug: It’s a symbol for that clothing that covers our nakedness.

Danny: Okay. But the shearers are what? Supposed to be a symbol of what?

Pastor Doug: Well, that’s a symbol of the wicked, that the ones that took Jesus and crucified him.

Danny: Okay. May I ask you another question in regards to that? So you think that evil like as far as a related to a real sheep where they do anything like animal cruelty or something, now that you say that?

Pastor Doug: Not really, Danny, because the first person in history to ever take a lamb and make a fur coat was God in the Garden of Eden. I mean it isn’t nice to the animals but I wouldn’t accuse people of doing that those who are in the sheep industry that made wool. I’m not accusing them of cruelty because the first one would have been God.

Jean Ross: And of course when you shear a sheep, it doesn’t --

Pastor Doug: When God, when he gave them skins, it did.

Jean Ross: The skin does. Another point about that verse, just to add to that, the point that it's really making is that Jesus was silent just as a sheep is silent when it’s sheared so Jesus was silent in front of those who's persecuting him.

Pastor Doug: He didn’t defend himself.

Jean Ross: He didn’t defend himself.

Pastor Doug: Right. He didn’t retaliate in anyway. Thanks for your question, Danny.

Jean Ross: All right. The next question is Randolph and he’s listening on KSKY from Shreveport, Louisiana. Welcome to the program.

Randolph: Good evening.

Pastor Doug: Good evening.

Randolph: Pastor Doug, I was watching you the other evening on 3ABN. And you were doing a teaching on… I think it was kind of over because I look at your hair was pretty much still black back then so we were doing some teaching on your favorite Kings of the Bible.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Randolph: And you were speaking of Saul and you mentioned where when the spirit of God left Saul, that he was either spoken to by the prophets or the priests.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Randolph: Or something else that you called the Urim and the Thummim.

Pastor Doug: Thummim. Yes.

Randolph: Okay so my question was I’m trying to find out where I could find that on the Bible and while I was on hold, I found it. But I have another question. [Doug laughs]. My question is how did that Urim and Thummim work? Did he actually had a question and it lit up in a (certain?) way or…

Pastor Doug: That’s a good question. But allow me for a second, Randolph, to explain to our listeners. You know what we're talking about. A lot of people listening here may do not know.

Randolph: Okay.

Pastor Doug: On the garments of the high priest, not only was there a breast plate that had 12 stones but on the shoulders were 2 precious jewels and one on the right and one on the left. And I forget what the names of those jewels were--

Randolph: (inaudible 22:59)

Pastor Doug: But one was symbol of ‘yes, go forward’ and the other one was a symbol of ‘caution, wait or do not go.’

Randolph: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And sometimes they would pray and it was almost like they were asking God for a yes or a no and something happened. And the Bible is not clear but they would consult--they call it consulting the Urim and Thummim--and there was one or two times when David did that when (inaudible 23:26) a highpriest when he fled cause Saul killed all the priest, he brought the Urim and the Thummim and the breastplate with him.

Randolph: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And David consulted it. I don’t know if they glowed. I don’t know if they sparkled. Or do you have any insight on the, Pastor Ross? Something happened.

Jean Ross: Yeah, it seems as though it lit up like you were saying, the one would glow somehow.

Pastor Doug: The glory of God would shine on it or something.

Jean Ross: (lighting?).

Randolph: And that would be the answer.

Pastor Doug: And that was their answer.

Jean Ross: You know for more on that, just to give you the verse there, it’s Exodus 28. The chapter specifically verse 30 is talking about the Urim and the Thummim and how it should be use by the high priest (here on?).

Pastor Doug: All right. Good question, Randolph. I don’t think we've had that one before.

Jean Ross: Okay. Our next caller is Kim listening on WWOH from Ohio. Kim, welcome to the program.

Kim: Thank you. How are you this evening?

Pastor Doug: Very well. And your question.

Kim: Yes. I am wondering how do you go about explaining the importance of keeping the Sabbath to someone who is not a Sabbath keeper.

Pastor Doug: Well, the first thing I would do is I'd approach the person and study about you know what is the relationship between a Christian and the 10 Commandments. And once they embraced the truth about while we are saved by grace, we are not released from the obligation of obeying the 10 Commandments because we love God. Once they understand that and then they understand the truth regarding you know what is the 7th day. God doesn’t say keep “A” 7th day. He says keep “The” 7th day. God blessed a day. And what day is that? What day is the 7th day? It’s what we commonly say Saturday. Once they understand that, I mean if you talk about keeping the Sabbath day holy, of course there are some dear Christians that believe Sunday is the Sabbath and they do it their best to keep it holy. And as a matter of fact, I know some Sunday keepers that keep their Sunday more holy than Sabbath keepers keep their Saturday. So when it talks about keeping it holy, a simple answer--it is a deep study--a simple answer is to avoid, of course, your regular work, to avoid doing anything that could be done in preparation prior in the weeks. So when the hours began, you have quality time, holy time with God. And you know we've got some study guides that talk about that, Pastor Ross go ahead.

Jean Ross: We have a study guide called "The Lost Day in History" that talks about the Sabbath, gives a good biblical foundation that you can understand the importance of the Sabbath and also talks about how we are to keep the Sabbath and the whole focus of the Sabbath. We just wanna add it’s not, Pastor Doug, something we do to earn our way to heaven.

Pastor Doug: That’s right.

Jean Ross: But rather it's something that's strengthens our relationship with Jesus, quality time, set aside every week. All right. Let’s go to the phone lines. Our next caller is Ken and he's calling from California listening on KPIE. Ken, welcome to the program.

Ken: Pastor Batchelor.

Pastor Doug: Yes, sir.

Ken: It's a pleasure to speak with you, Sir.

Pastor Doug: Well, we've got about 2 minutes before the break so how can we help you?

Ken: Okay. Last Sunday was a holiday that most Protestants call Easter but what does that big rabbit have to do with the resurrection of Christ?

Pastor Doug: I have a funny feeling you know the answer to that one.

Ken: Well, sort of. I know Easter is taken (inaudible 27:04) fertility, right? But is there anymore insight you can give me on that?

Pastor Doug: Well yeah. You're right on target, Ken, that a lot of the trappings you see around have nothing to do with resurrection, everything from the eggs to the bunnies. Bunnies are really prolific animals. I mean that’s a term we often used before when someone says multiply like rabbits, because they multiply very quickly so they were a sign of fertility as were eggs. And the spring time in the Northern Hemisphere there's a big holiday among many of the great empires during that time and it was a celebration of Oestre which was a goddess of fertility. So gradually when the Passover landed very closely to Easter, the church sort of just comingle with these two holidays and will win a lot of Pagans into the church. And so over the centuries you’ve seen not only Christians talking about the resurrection, which is appropriate during the Passover, but then they may also kind of weave in the flowers and the bunnies and the eggs and some of the other pagan traditions. And there is really no connection between the bunnies and the resurrection.

So anyway, I hope that helps in a short time we have before the break. We do need to stop here friends. We’ve got some important announcement. Also, it gives our stations a chance to identify themselves otherwise, they might be carried off by the CIA and arrested. So we're gonna take a break here. We also wanna remind you to check out the website, amazingfacts.org. We frequently mentions this because once you get there, you're gonna find out that there is a kaleidoscope of different resources you can watch, you can listen to, you can read, you can share. amazingfacts.org.

[COMMERCIAL BREAK]

Pastor Doug: We’re back listening friends. If you've just joined us, this is Bible Answers Live, a live international interactive Bible study. And you know we have people listening from all over the world because we get their emails. Some of you cannot call in with your Bible questions but we do invite you to email us your Bible questions and we try to take at least a tithe of those every week. And just simply go to amazingfacts.org and we'd love to hear from you. Pastor Ross, we're back.

Jean Ross: All right. Before we take the phone lines, Pastor Doug, let’s just quickly remind our listeners, perhaps there's someone that's tuning for the first time, of some of the resources available on the web to help them on their Bible study.

Pastor Doug: Yes, not only do we have the amazingfacts.org website but there's a number of websites that we'd like to recommend that Amazing Facts either endorses or would like to do response in some way that have Bible studies on video or Bible studies you can (fulfill?) online, lessons you can download, just all kinds of study resources and on different subjects. Some of them specialize for instance, this last hour, half an hour, we frequently get questions on the Sabbath truth--Many churches are discovering this why it's been hidden--So we provided a website if you have questions on that, it’s a very well prepared website, simply called sabbathtruth.com. Some people are interested in the last day prophecy. There’s another website called prophecycode.com where there’s some videos you can watch or listen to the audio messages or the most amazing prophecies websites and that is mostamazingprophesies.com. So if you got to the Amazing Facts website, you'll find many of these links as well as Bible universe where you can go through a series of studies and get your apostle prophecy degree.

Jean Ross: Okay. Let’s go to the next caller. Francis is listening from WMCA from Long Island, New York. Francis, welcome to the program. I guess its pronounced Francis. Francis, welcome to the program.

Francis: Yes. Good night.

Pastor Doug: Evening. How are you?

Francis: I'm okay.

Pastor Doug: And your question.

Francis: I've got a question on John 4 verse 23.

Pastor Doug: Yes, the woman at the well.

Francis: Yes, what did Jesus meant by worshipping spirits and in truth?

Pastor Doug: Well, there are some people who worship God in the spirit but they're ignorant of the truth. Jesus later goes on and tells us the Samaritan woman, she begins to kind of debate with him and said "Should we worship on that Gerizim like the Samaritans or Mountain Zion like the Jews?" And Jesus tells her very plainly, salvation is of the Jews. In other words, God had committed the truth, the oracles of truth Paul says, to the Jews. So some people may be worshipping God in their hearts and they're very sincere but there in the theology, they don’t have the truth. The Lord wants us to worship Him both ways: with our mind, the truth with our hearts our spirit and worship him in sincerity. Some people are hypocrites in the way they worship. Jesus said that the scribes and the Pharisees they would pray to be (seen?) of men. They’re outwardly professing the worship but they're not worshipping in spirit.

Francis: Okay. Glad you mentioned that. Just one quick question. A lot of people when they say worship in the spirit, they start to speak in tongues and all other stuff.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Francis: What is worshipping in spirit? That's where I’m kind of get out…

Pastor Doug: Okay. Well, a lot of our charismatic friends interpreted that verse to mean that this is some endorsement to of what you have when someone speak in tongues. They say this is worshipping in the spirit but it doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible worshipping in the spirit means you need to speak in tongues. Do you believe, Francis, that Jesus knew how to worship in the spirit?

Francis: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Did he ever speak in tongues that's recorded in the Bible?

Francis: No.

Pastor Doug: And if you look in the Bible the New Testament, there's a lot of examples of the disciples worshipping God in the spirit, in the truth, and nothing to do with tongues.

Francis: Okay.

Pastor Doug: I think it's a distorted theology to try to say that when it's worshipping in the spirit, it means that you need to speak in tongues or you need to be shouting or clapping. That's not what it means. Worshipping in spirit means sincerity from the heart. You're genuine. That’s what the Lord is looking for.

Francis: I think that’s (somewhat?) my type (inaudible 35:17) because I got before I hold up the line, the fruits of the spirit and worshipping in spirit, is there any form of parallel there?

Pastor Doug: Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. A lot of people think the fruit of the spirit is tongues but the Bible doesn’t say that. I believe in the gifts of tongues but the fruit of the spirit is not tongues. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, Galatians 5:22.

Francis: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Pastor Ross, you have a thought?

Jean Ross: You know you've got a book Pastor Doug "Captured by Tongues"

Pastor Doug: Oh, thank you.

Jean Ross: I'm thinking that might be a great resource for people...

Pastor Doug: I appreciate the reminder. You think I would know that but yeah if you would like a free copy of that Francis, it will help you better understand the subject of tongues and we'll send you a free copy. "Captured by Tongues"

Jean Ross: To receive that, call the resource number 1-800-835-6747 and as for Pastor Doug's book Captured by Tongues and they'll be happy to send that out to you. If you have a Bible question, the number to call is 1-800-GOD-SAYS, that's 1-800-463-7297. Our next caller is Eugene and he's calling from Montana. Welcome to the program, Eugene.

Eugene: Hello. How you doing?

Pastor Doug: Doing well. And how is things in Kalispell?

Eugene: It's a nice warm evening out here. All the snow (inaudible 36:32).

Pastor Doug: You must be having a heat wave of about 450 up there. [laughs]

Eugene: Yes, Sir. (Inaudible 36:49) heat wave at this moment.

Pastor Doug: And your question?

Eugene: My question is I was reading a book by Charles Spurgeon--I don’t know if you're familiar with him.

Pastor Doug: I am very familiar. Which book? Is it the devotional called "Morning and Evening"?

Eugene: I've read that one too but I don’t think it was one from that. It was one of his jewels something like some of the different jewel book.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, okay.

Eugene: He was stating that if a person is truly born again and his spirit is really regenerated, he cannot lose his salvation. He may stumble and fall and break (inaudible 37:11) here but that born again relationship cannot be broken. Because if that was true, every time we lost and got our salvation back, that would be based on works and not on grace. Is that true or false?

Pastor Doug: I would respectfully disagree. And now keep in mind, I've got the utmost respect for Charles Haddon Spurgeon. The man knew the Lord, he was spirit filled. I also have a great deal of respect for Calvin. Calvin is really the author of Calvinism which teaches that once you're saved, you can’t be lost. That’s sort of the... That's where it really began to surge. I would disagree with Spurgeon. There's two big, there's Calvinist minions and those who believe in what you call free will that we can choose to be saved and find salvation and have assurance but you don’t lose your freedom to choose not to follow the Lord. The Lord will never let go of us. He's faithful but we're not always faithful. And when we decide to turn away--There’s too many examples in the Bible of people who were spirit filled. They were following the Lord and they turned away, everybody from King Saul to Belem the prophet to Judas--So I think it's a dangerous assumption that once you are saved when you are 9 years old, you can live the rest of your life for the devil and say you’re still saved.

Eugene: Yes.

Pastor Doug: So you know, we've got a book on that. And it's a book that deals with the assurance and the salvation that Pastor Ross were looking at that at the beginning of the broadcast thinking about making that our offer. The little sermon booklet on “Assurance.” If you'd like a free copy, Eugene, we'll send you one.

Jean Ross: That’s right.

Eugene: I would love to have one.

Jean Ross: Call the resource number, Eugene. It's 1-800-835-6747 and asks for the little booklet. It's not a study guide. It's a little booklet on "Assurance," the assurance of salvation. And they'll be happy to send that out to you. All right. Thanks for your call.

Our next caller is Monica and she's listening on WMCA from Manhattan New York. Monica, welcome to the program.

Monica: Yes, Pastor Doug. Good night. How are you?

Pastor Doug: Very well. Thank you and your question tonight.

Monica: Bless the Lord. It's Revelation chapter 4.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Monica: And I think it starts from verse 9, when the living creatures you know give glory, they were talking about the 24 elders who bowed some and worshipped God.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Monica: My question is who are these 24 elders who bowed down and worshipped you know when the creatures give glory?

Pastor Doug: There's 2 things I wanna tell you as I answer. First of all, if you look in the Old Testament, David had and Solomon had arranged for a group of 24 thousand who would served in the temple of God praising God and helping with facilitate the worship services and the sacrifices there. So don’t forget that number 24 thousand.

Monica: Okay.

Pastor Doug: But the number 24 in the Bible is a symbol for the church: 12 apostles in the New Testament 12 tribes in the Old Testament 12 judges in the Old Testament 12 stars above the head of the woman in Revelation chapter 12. So 12 is the number for the church. These 24 elders are symbols of the leadership of the church that are around the thrown of God worshipping them and of course the 144 thousand is 12 x 12 thousand. So who are they? Most scholars believed because the resurrection has not occurred yet that these are comprised of some of those patriarchs and prophets and kings who are resurrected when Christ was raised. You remember in Matthew 28?

Monica: Right. Exactly.

Pastor Doug: There's this special resurrection, not all the graves but many of the graves of the (saints?) opened up--

Monica: I was just saying. Right.

Pastor Doug: And Christ took first fruits to heaven with him of those saved. They are probably the ones sitting around the thrown of God.

Jean Ross: You know (inaudible 41:08) to that is Ephesians chapter 4 verse 8, speaking of Christ's ascension it says, "Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he let captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." So some suggest this is Jesus ascending on high taking those who are resurrected at the time of his resurrection and he gave them gifts as sort of first fruits, represented of us of those who would be saved.

Pastor Doug: And he gave gifts unto men. He gave those 24 elders a real gift.

Jean Ross: That’s right.

Pastor Doug: Here's your mansion. [Pastors laugh]

Monica: Okay. Can I ask you one more question?

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Monica: Okay. In Revelation chapter 13 again and verse 12 I believe, it was talking about the beast and that she has this scar, a wound.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Monica: What does this wound are they talking about? You know it was a (inaudible 41:57) wound and…

Pastor Doug: And if you read down further, the beast that had the deadly wound by the sword. So a sword in the Bible was s symbol for the word of God. If you read in verse 14, the beast which was wounded by a sword, the devil had sword, Ephesians chapter 6 and Hebrews chapter 4, is the word of God. This is the beast that is this religious political power that has persecuted God's people. You know rather than getting into a deep study on this, Monica, we have a study guide called "The Mark of the Beast." We'll send it to you and it talks about this beast and its wound and who he is.

Jean Ross: To get that, called "The Mark of the Beast," call this number 1-800-835-6747. Pastor Doug, we get this question often. Who is this anti-Christ? Who is this beast power? That resource is--

Pastor Doug: The truth is so shocking that we just as soon send them the lesson.

Jean Ross: And let them get the background and the scriptures (inaudible 42:53)--

Pastor Doug: Let them get the background so that they can study it.

Jean Ross: Again, 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the study guide "The Mark of the Beast." Our next caller is Gary and he is calling, listening on KTRI calling from California. Welcome to the program, Gary.

Gary: Hi.

Pastor Doug: Evening. Get real close to your phone.

Gary: Okay, I am

Pastor Doug: And your question.

Gary: Yeah. I’ve had kind of, in this kind of (dog tale?) a little bit with your last call. But I’ve had trouble for a while trying to reconcile. And I know Lucifer was the most beautiful of angels and very clever in everything but how is he able to take a third of the heavenly (whole?) side of heaven? After all, I mean that's heaven. I mean how could that possibly happen?

Pastor Doug: Good question. Now before I even go to answer it because it is a deep subject about how a perfect angel could fall and did God make a devil, we'll send you a free copy of our study guide. It's called "Did God Create a Devil?" Now let me give you a quick reader's digest answer to that. You've got several Scriptures. Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, you find the history of Satan and his fall, his rebellion, his wanting to be God. Then, if you go to Revelation 12, the dragon drew one-third of the stars and they were cast to the earth. But even Christ said I saw Satan fall like lightning. The best story in the Bible to help illustrate it, David, King David, good King David had a perfect beautiful son visually. His name was Absalom. The Bible says, and I think this is 2 Samuel chapter 14, “From the crown of his head to the soul of his foot, there was no blemish in him.” Absalom managed to get about half of the kingdom or two-thirds of the kingdom to rebel against his father. Why would anyone rebel against David? This is the King that had led them to the (zenith?) of victory but he somehow deceived the people. He stole their hearts. Now the devil, keep in mind when he was beginning to circulate among the angels in heaven, there had never been a lie told in the history of the cosmos. Can you imagine that living in a round and a world where no one had ever spoken a non-truth? They were taken off guard. They were blind-sided by Satan's lies because they never heard a lie and they began to believe it. It's like Eve doubting God's word and listening to the serpent. Why would she do that? Well, she never heard a lie before?

Jean Ross: Although God did want her.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, God had warned her but--

Jean Ross: There's a little difference in the place of Lucifer, here he starts--

Pastor Doug: That's why Jesus said we need to be wiser and harmless as doves. He doesn’t want us to be gullible because there are a lot of liars out there. It's one thing Jesus made clear. And the angels… The devil, of course, just under God empowered beauty was very persuasive. And the difference between the devil in one sense, Gary, had an advantage over God. Think about this. In the battle between good and evil, God can only use truth. The devil can use truth. He can use lies or any combination. And so you've heard the expression that a lie will go around the world while truth is still putting on its shoes. That’s Mark (20?), that's not the Bible but it's true. [Jean laughs] So with the lesson, we'll send you that study guide. I think it will give you more information to flesh that truth out.

Jean Ross: You know what’s comforting about that, Satan might have gotten one-third of the angels but at least, there are two-thirds on God's side.

Pastor Doug: That's right.

Jean Ross: So the truth would ultimately triumph over error.

Pastor Doug: And you know what? If Satan had gotten 99% of the angels, you and God are a majority.

Jean Ross: [laughs] That's true.

Pastor Doug: God made them all. If you've got God on your team, you win, period. [Pastors laughs]

Jean Ross: All right. Carl is listening on WOCG from New Market, Alabama. Carl, welcome to the program.

Carl: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Evening and your question.

Carl: Yeah, and I just wondering about in Ezekiel 1, a long time ago, I heard of a (description?) of I think it was the Holy Spirit whatever about wheels.

Pastor Doug: The wheels within the wheels.

Carl: Yeah and the wheels were spinning.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, this is one probably the deepest apocalyptic prophesies in the Bible. And I've read the commentaries and I hear a lot of interesting things. Let me give you a few things to think about. First of all, the inner workings of how God manages to lead in people's lives and guide them is very mysterious. It's like wheels within wheels.

Carl: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Even in the ancient time, you know we didn’t think they knew very much about gears and clocks. And then they made this discovery off the coast of Greece, they call it the Antikythera machine and it’s a machine filled with gears that turn where there’s wheels within wheels. And it was a calculating calendar that they use for navigation. So they understood that process of the inner workings. Another thing to think about is all of life that God makes is a series of wheels within wheels. Every single cell of life represents the nucleus inside the plasma, inside the shell or the cell wall. And it's a wheel, it's a sphere within a circle--And well, our major cells our solar system the moon goes around the earth and the earth and the moon goes around the sun and the sun circles in a Milky Way galaxy. The cosmos is a series of wheels within a wheel. So whether you look through a microscope or a telescope, God's creation is a lot of wheels within wheels. It’s just talking about God is in all things.

Carl: But there’s a mystery there, I tell you that.

Pastor Doug: Oh, absolutely.

Carl: One of my brothers said one time (I?) was watching a western the wagon, you ever noticed that the wheels that it’s going backwards?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, when they go into a certain speed, it's almost look like they're going backwards. You can see that on some car (hoop caps?) too.

Carl: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: You know I think part of it the whole idea of the wheel within a wheel, it's also emphasizing God's mobility. God is not stuck in one place. But his entire thrown moves because this creature, or this thrown that's been described here, in some ways parallels to four living creatures that you find in Revelation chapter 4. (Inaudible 49:17).

Carl: Yeah, I’ve done reading that.

Jean Ross: That's right. It’s just living, moving thrown and God is moving. God is able to move. He's aware of what’s happening. So that's part of the lesson that's being emphasized in this verse.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, it’s some kind of heavenly chariot. And you know I'm just what I'm sharing now is sort of some of the ideas but the jury is still out. I haven’t heard anything real solid. I know it's an amazing vision. Thank you, Carl, for your question.

Jean Ross: Okay, our next caller is Jeff and he's listening on WMCA from a Yonkers, New York. Jeff welcome to the program.

Jeff: Hi.

Pastor Doug: How can we help you tonight, Jeff?

Jeff: Yes I was reading in Numbers, the 21 chapter, the 19 verse where it plainly says, “God is not a man, he should tell lies he's a son of man, that he should repent,” and yet I'm hearing that in some religions they teach that Jesus (inaudible 50:10) a man and it sounds so contrary or contradictory to what the Numbers 23 in 19.

Pastor Doug: What you mean you say that some religions teach that Jesus was a man? I'm not sure what you’re saying.

Jeff: (Not?) a man.

Pastor Doug: All right, so your question really was Jesus God?

Jeff: How could he be both God and man when it plainly says in Numbers 23:19, “God is not a man.”

Pastor Doug: Well first of all, a person can have dual citizenship. There’s no conflict with Jesus being a God. He said that he was son of God and also being man, He referred to himself as the son of man. This is the mystery. Jesus had a mother. Her name was Mary but He was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Jeff: Right.

Pastor Doug: And so you've got the union of these two entities. Both the creator and creation came together. That it's called the mystery of Godliness. The incarnation is a mystery.

Jean Ross: You know, there in Numbers 23 verse 19 the real subject that's been discussed there is lies. The prophecy saying God is not a man, he doesn’t lie the way human beings do. God is greater than us. Of course, he's the creator. He’s a spirit. And this is before Jesus came to this earth. This is before the incarnation but at the incarnation, we have God, a 100% God a combining of self with humanity and there is this mystery but there’s this coming together. And through that sacrifice, through Jesus coming together, we have life.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Pastor Ross, because really the emphasis of this verse is Jesus said if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children--humans are evil. Men lie--God doesn’t lie. God is truth. Jesus is the truth.

Jean Ross: (Inaudible 51:57) All right. Thank you for your call, Jeff. Our next caller is Mark and he's calling from the Bronx, New York, listening on WMCA. Mark, welcome to the program.

Mark: Hey, welcome. God bless brothers.

Pastor Doug: How can we help you tonight?

Mark: My question is what is your insight on predestination and election. I know the Bible says in John 6:65 that no one comes to Christ unless it was given from God. And I hear some people teach on the choice belongs to us. But I don’t believe the choice belongs to us because that would put God at the mercy of man. So maybe you could try to give me a little break down on what the Lord has revealed to you guys.

Pastor Doug: Well, you’re delving into probably one of the greatest debates in the Christian church on those two subjects. There is something of a mystery here. First of all, it is very clear we have a choice because the Bible tells us, "Whose to whoever will let him take.” God said if we choose to believe we can choose to believe. Joshua says “Choose ye this day who you will serve.” Moses said “I set before you this day life and death, evil and blessing and cursing, choose life.” So it’s very clear that there's a choice we can make but you also correct that the sovereign will of God moves on our spirit and enables us to make the right choice. God doesn’t force us because if you think about it, Mark, if God forces us to choose if it's all him doing it, then we can’t love him because our love would be forced as well. And forced love is not love. Does that make sense?

Mark: Yup. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean I believe that the Lord is like you said put that in our spirits to come closer to the Lord and accept the whole truth. I do believe that a lot of it the Lord let a lot of choices for us to make on our own to see where our heart is, to see how much we want to grow closer to him. So I mean it just you know I read some from Charles Spurgeon once and he said that we know that if the Lord wanted to save everybody, he can do it in an instant. It's not that the Lord can’t do it, but you know just sometimes you wonder why some people are so cut off from the whole thing of eternity and heaven and hell. You know, they're functioning normal and they're bright and there are even more people and they just missed the whole mark. And sometimes I wonder like why did I get the mark you know I’m not any best in these people.

Pastor Doug: Well, we are faithful for that when the Holy Spirit is in our lives and there is somewhat of a mystery.

Jean Ross: You know this idea that God selects some to be saved and some to be lost, a verse that comes to my mind is 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9, where the apostle Paul, Peter said, God is not slack concerning His promise," speaking of the Second Coming, “but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that anyone to perish but all should come to repentance.” So God is never willing that anyone be lost.

Pastor Doug: And again you can read in 1 Timothy 2 verse 3 and 4, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our savior, who will have all men to be saved. God's will is that all would be saved but He doesn’t force us to be saved because He can’t force us to love. Now, there's things that I could do to try and encourage my wife to love me but I can’t make her. Then, it's not love.

Jean Ross: Okay. Great our next caller, I think we have time for one or two more calls. Cornelius is listening on WIGC from Alabama. Welcome to the program.

Cornelius: Good evening, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Yes, Sir. We've got about 2 minutes.

Cornelius: Yes, Sir. My question is concerning Genesis chapter 8 verse 1 to 4. And I’m gonna hang up. I’m going to let you give me the answer.

Pastor Doug: All right. I think that your question is dealing with there were giants of the earth when the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fare.

Cornelius: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Okay. Some people have thought these sons of God, who are they? Are they angels? Are these sons of God the aliens? Are they fallen angels? And this has been grossly misunderstood. There are two divisions of people in that world back before the flood. There were the descendants of Cain, which were called the sons of men. Enos Carnal, they were dying and they were the descendants of Seth which believed in the Lord. They were called the sons of God. When the descendants of Seth become to inter-marry with the descendants of Cain, that’s when the world turned totally wicked. They became unequally yoked. But they also had children, offspring that were giants. This is a very simple scientific process known as ‘genetic vitality.’ It often happens when separated, strange of the same species cross breed, they often have a very vital large offspring. You can hear about an animal called ‘liger.’ It's a cross between tigers and lions and some of them are enormous.

Anyway friends, that brings us to the end of this broadcast. You hear the music. Now, we love to hear from you. Email us your Bible questions at amazingfacts.org. And just a word of encouragement, introduce yourself. We love to hear from you. And remember it's about Jesus. He's the truth who will set you free.

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