144,000 Sing Song of Deliverance

Scripture: Genesis 3:21, Exodus 7:1-25
Date: 04/07/2013 
With his steady bass, baritone voice, gospel singer and hymn composer, George Beverly Shea, has been often described as America’s beloved singer. Son of a Methodist minister, Shea...
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Doug Batchelor: Hello, friends. This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? With his steady bass, baritone voice, gospel singer and hymn composer, George Beverly Shea, has been often described as America’s beloved singer. Son of a Methodist minister, Shea worked for 9 years after college for a New York life insurance company. But what he really wanted was a full time opportunity to sing for God. What most people don’t know is in 1933, Bev Shea was invited to sing for “Your Hit Parade” national NBC radio station. This was one of the most popular programs in the country at that time. But he turned it down because they wanted him to sing secular songs and he felt convicted he’d been called to sing for God’s glory.

At that time, many friends thought that he had missed his golden opportunity to be discovered. Bev Shea continued singing for God during weekends and even got a few albums. But then, in 1947, Billy Graham invited George Beverly Shea to travel with him as a singing evangelist, a position he kept for over 60 years.

According to the Guinness’ Book of World Records, Shea holds the world record for singing to more people in person than any other human. It’s estimated, George Beverly Shea has sung live collectively to an audience of over 220 million people. At the time of this recording, he is a 104 years old.

Did you know the Bible says there is a special song that only a select group will be able to sing? Stay with us, friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible answers, live.


Jëan Ross: Welcome to Bible Answers Live brought to you by Amazing Facts ministries. Are you looking for a clear, concise answer to your most challenging Bible questions? Maybe you’re struggling to understand difficult passages of Scripture. If so, you’ve come to the right place. Join us now as we open God’s word to discover His will and find honest, practical answers to your Bible-related questions.

This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible question, call us Sundays from 7 to 8PM, Pacific Standard Time at 800-GODSAYS. That’s 800-4637297. Now, let’s join our host, author, speaker, and evangelist, Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Doug Batchelor: Welcome, listening friends, to Bible Answers Live. And if you’re tuning in for the first time, what we do here is we take your questions. You can call in any Bible question. We’ll do our best to answer it with the Bible resources at our fingertips here. The phone number one more time, lines are open now, 800-GODSAYS – 800-4637297. And my name is Doug Batchelor.

Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening, listening friends, and Pastor Doug, let’s begin the program with a word of prayer.

Dear Father, once again, we thank You for this opportunity to study Your Word. We recognize the Bible is Your Book so we ask Your leading now as we search Scriptures for answers. Be with those who are listening wherever they might be. And we ask Your blessing upon this program. In Jesus’ Name. Amen. Amen.

Well, Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a group of people who sing a special song in heaven. What group are you talking about?

Doug Batchelor: Well, you know, it sounds like they’re exclusive but this is what it says in Revelation 14:1. It talks about the 144,000 and it says, “I looked and I saw, lo, a Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with them a 144,000 having His Father’s name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as a voice of many waters and a great voice of a thunder. And I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps. And they sing as it was a new song before the throne and before the four beasts and the elders and no man could learn that song but the 144,000 which were redeemed from the earth.”

Speaks about a special song that they can sing. And I expect that’s because some people can sing a certain song because it’s about an experience they’ve had and only those who’ve had the experience can really sing honestly about that song. And it makes us think of the Old Testament when the children of Israel had escaped their slavery by the skin of their teeth and they crossed the Red Sea that they went out singing. It talks about that Moses sang and Miriam, and that she led the women and they sang the song of deliverance. Also refers to a similar song in Deuteronomy 31 that Moses taught the children of Israel just before they entered the Promised Land.

So it’s a song of crossing over; it’s a song of deliverance that the 144,000 are able to sing because of this relationship and experience that they’ve got. And maybe people have wondered, who are these folks that are going to have this special relationship in the last days? Who are the 144,000? And what is this song? We’ve got a free book we’ll be happy to send and all the person has to do is call and ask for it.

Jëan Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747 and you can ask for the book, “Who Will Sing the Song? Understanding the 144,000.” So again, the number is 800-835-6747 and the book again, talking about the 144,000 that’s called, “Who Will Sing the Song?” We’ll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and asks for it. This evening if you’re close to your computer, you can join us here in the studio via the Web. You go to live.amazingfacts.org. Again, that number… that address is live.amazingfacts.org. We are streaming the programs this evening.

Well, Pastor Doug, are you ready for the phone lines?

Doug Batchelor: We’ll see.

Jëan Ross: We have Michael who’s listening from New Jersey on WMCA. Michael, welcome to the program.

Michael: Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross, I will say we thank you for your service. We thank you.

Doug Batchelor: Well, praise the Lord! We’re thankful you called in.

Michael: And I want to ask this question. I have been… you know, I have been studying and studying. I’m trying to figure out who… in the Scripture, when was the Jewish nation founded? When did it begin? Did it begin with Jacob?

Doug Batchelor: Well, that’s a little bit of a tricky question because when we think of the Jewish nation, usually, it’s the word “Hebrew” that’s used during the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Michael: I know.

Doug Batchelor: You don’t really start hearing the word “Jewish” until there was a split between the southern kingdom and the northern kingdom. The southern kingdom was principally the tribe of Judah. And the word “Jewish” is a derivative of the tribe of Judah. And so, they were called the Jewish people. But it… that word became an inclusive word. I’m sorry, go ahead.

Michael: Where at in the Scripture though? I want to know when it started.

Doug Batchelor: Well, I think you’re going to read it in the book of Esther about the Jewish people.

Michael: Okay.

Doug Batchelor: And you’ll… in Titus, well, the word “Jewish,” you find in Titus 1:14. That, of course, is the New Testament. But, you know, it talks about a law to destroy the Jews and when it talks about Joseph, for instance, they used the word “Hebrew” there when the twelve tribes were still together. And the word “Hebrew” is referring to those that crossed over and some think its hearkening back to when Abraham left Ur and crossed over to Euphrates. So Hebrew is thought of as people who have crossed over.

Michael: I know.

Doug Batchelor: The word “Jew” or “Jewish” really came a little later after the southern kingdom separated from the northern kingdom.

Michael: And one more small question.

Doug Batchelor: Yup.

Michael: When you go to the seven thunders in Revelation, I know this is impossible. But can you even take a stab at one thing that might have been said in the seven thunders?

Doug Batchelor: Well, that’s a question for Pastor Ross. [Laughing].

Jëan Ross: Well, you know, we don’t know for sure. Well, we don’t know. He hears a voice from heaven saying, “Don’t write what the seven thunders uttered.” It would appear though that the seven thunders had something to do with the experience of the people that’s being described there. John is told to take the book and eat it. It’s sweet in his mouth but bitter in his stomach. It’s describing an experience sometimes referred to as the Millerite movement which resulted in the expectation of Christ coming and Jesus didn’t come. People are bitterly disappointed. That’s something that those seven thunders have something to do with that experience.

Doug Batchelor: By the way, I…

Michael: So, that’s why I said it’s almost impossible to even… but I just want…

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, they’re a mystery we don’t know. I looked up the word “Jews,” and I think the earliest reference it does use the word “Jew” in Esther and the word “Jews” is first mentioned in 2 Kings 16:6 where it says, “At that time, Rezin, King of Syria, recovered Elath, the Syrian, drove the Jews from Elath. The Jews…”

Michael: But the forerunner was Abraham now.

Doug Batchelor: Abraham’s the father of the Jewish people. But the Jew is more…

Michael: And what part of… what part of the world would they be in?

Doug Batchelor: Excuse me?

Michael: What part of the world was that? That was in… around Egypt in..?

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, well, this is… this is the land of Israel, of course.

Michael: Oh, okay. Oh well, okay.

Doug Batchelor: Well, thank you, Michael…

Michael: Thank you.

Doug Batchelor: Pleased you take your call and your question.

Jëan Ross: We have Jacob who is listening from Minnesota. Jacob, welcome to the program.

Jacob: Hi, Pastor.

Doug Batchelor: Evening.

Jacob: How are you tonight?

Doug Batchelor: Doing great. How are you?

Jacob: Pretty good.

Doug Batchelor: And your question.

Jacob: I’m always wondering when the… you know how when the animals were made and they passed by Adam and Adam named them? If there are other planets out there, wouldn’t the animals already be renamed?

Doug Batchelor: Well, only if they were the same animals. My guess is that you look at all the diversity. Look at all the different kinds of life on our planet. I mean, there are thousands of different species. And by the way, when the animals passed before Adam on the sixth day, of course, that’s before he’d even named woman in the afternoon.

I think Adam principally named categories of the animals. I don’t think he named every variety of dog and cat, for instance. But I think he… you know what I mean? Dog and cat, whatever he called them in his original tongue there. And just the main categories, I think he named them and he realized that he was missing a partner.

But on other planets, I think that things are so completely unique and different that when we get to heaven and we’re able to soar to worlds unknown and look at these different planets, the animals will also be something that probably have totally different names. And it’s almost no limit to combinations of words that you could use to describe the creatures God’s made out there.

Jacob: Okay, thank you.

Doug Batchelor: So, I think the animals that Adam named were, I’m believing, that, because God likes variety, He made this planet unique and there’s not another one like it. Just like no two people have the same fingerprints. I’m guessing that God says He knows all the stars by name, that there’s other worlds out there and they’re all unique. Thanks. Good question, Jacob. Don’t think we ever had that before.

Jëan Ross: We have Jerry. He’s listening in Medford, Oregon. Jerry, welcome to the program.

Jerry: Thank you, Pastors. We… we know that God expects obedience of us and He expects us to comply with His will.

Doug Batchelor: Jerry, get close to your phone.

Jerry: Okay.

Doug Batchelor: Okay, there we go.

Jerry: Well, we know the Lord expects obedience of us and compliance with His will. But in the case in Exodus, it indicates that God purposely hardened the heart of Pharaoh so that He could demonstrate His power and so that the Egyptians would know that He was God. So, my question is if God purposely wanted or hardened Pharaoh’s heart, how can He judge him or what probations does He have for Pharaoh?

Doug Batchelor: You know, it’s a difficult question because, in one place, it says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. And then you can also read in Exodus 8:32, “And Pharaoh hardened his heart.” And so, the way that scholars have dealt with that is it says or they believe that when God says He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it meant through the circumstances that God sent to Egypt. Pharaoh chose to harden his heart. So, you know, it’s personally I can say, well, God did because of the circumstances He sent. But the Pharaoh willfully chose to be stubborn and recalcitrant even though he had so many opportunities. I think that God gives us all creatures a free will and that’s why it says in the Bible, “Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Jëan Ross: You know, after a Scripture where you see God withdrawing His protection or bringing circumstances, He’s often the one that’s at least spoken of as being responsible for it. For example, when Israel rejected the Messiah, rejected Christ, God’s protection was withdrawn. And in 70AD, the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem. Now, that was the result of Israel rejecting God’s protection, yet, it’s almost at times presented as if God was bringing that judgment upon. I mean, in essence He did in that He withdrew His protection but it was really the Romans that destroyed it. That’s right.

Doug Batchelor: I appreciate your question, Jerry. I hope that helps a little bit and we do have a study guide that talks about a saved man, “Can a Saved Man Be Lost?” And that really deals with the same… I think that verse is in that book.

Jëan Ross: The number to call for that is 800-835-6747. The book is entitled, “Can a Saved Man Choose to be Lost?” We’ll send it to anyone that calls and asks. It’s 800-835-6747. And if you have a Bible-related question, the number to call to the studio is 800-463-7297.

We have Haleen who is listening from Pleasant Hill California. Haleen, welcome to the program.

Haleen: Oh, thank you. Thank you for taking my call. I’ve been speaking to my friends about the fact that I’ve recently become a Christian and I believe Jesus is Lord. And they say to me, “Well, yeah. That’s all very well. But what about reincarnation?” How can you explain that? It doesn’t fit into anything that I hear in the Bible. So, I’m asking you guys a question. So, how do I respond?

Doug Batchelor: Well, there… I used to believe in reincarnation before I was a Christian.

Haleen: Right.

Doug Batchelor: And when I first read the Bible, I realized there is one reincarnation. Well, actually, it might be a couple. Let me explain.

Reincarnation means a person pre-existed and they’re brought back to life again. The idea of you being reincarnated not remembering anything about your former life when you think about it, that’s sort of fruitless because what benefit do you have from having lived a former life if you have no knowledge or experience of it? But Jesus, when He resurrects people for heaven or they’re resurrected for judgment, that is a “reincarnation.” “Carnation” means… or “carne” means flesh. To reincarnate means to be brought back into flesh. It’s a form of resurrection. And so…

But the idea that you start out as, you know, a clam and you come back as a cow and then if you’re good, you’ll be a human or really go back to a cow. I mean, it varies. It depends on your religion. Some people think the supreme thing you could reach would be a cow. And that’s where they get the expression, “Holy cow!” But, that’s true. People think I was joking. And in any event, that kind of reincarnation, no, there’s no biblical support for that. The idea of a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked for judgment, that is very heavily supported in the Bible.

Jëan Ross: You know, Pastor, what’s interesting about the teaching…

Haleen: I have another question. What about people who say they know they’ve lived past lives. They’ve lived for…

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, and they feel like they’ve been somewhere before. I used to think that.

Haleen: But they know. They can predict which street they went down and really details of the experience.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. You know, out there’s… well, let me give you one explanation for that. First of all, some people have a déjà vu experience and one reason for that, say, “I feel like I’ve been here before. I’ve been through this before.” Your mind is so quick that sometimes, your conscious mind will not catch up to what your subconscious mind has already processed in just thousands of a fraction of a second. Your mind, subconsciously, will take in a room and experience an event, the smells – everything about it, and it’s already stored it. And then, suddenly, your conscious mind catches up and goes, “Wow, it’s already on the shelf. I’ve been here before. I’ve felt this before.” But that’s because your subconscious has pitched you to it. And so, it gives you that eerie feeling.

Now, you asked about what about when someone says, “Well, I know where the street is and I-I’ve got this feeling.” The Bible says that there are spiritual powers that are good and evil. And evil, powers can communicate with people. And, if the Devil wanted to fool a person into thinking, “You’ve been here before,” they have no problem revealing that information about what the next street is or what it’s going to look like and put it in their mind. And the Bible’s very clear that the Devil can communicate just as God and His Spirit and angels can communicate.

Jëan Ross: You know, Pastor Doug, what’s interesting about the teaching of reincarnation is everybody who believes in reincarnation believes that they were, at some point in time, some famous individual. I don’t know how many Napoleons there are out there and…

Doug Batchelor: What about Cleopatras?

Jëan Ross: [laughing] that’s right. So, yeah. It’s kind of interesting how if somebody was reincarnated, what good would it be to be a lower form like a cow or a bird or something along those lines. A cow or a bird doesn’t realize that they need to become good in order to move on to the next level.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, it’s… I think the whole idea of reincarnation is people’s yearning for eternity. They want to think, “I’m just kind of keep coming back ‘til I get to heaven.” And that’s sort of a form of universalism that everyone will eventually get there after you work things out. Right?

But, no. The Bible says, it’s appointed unto man once to die and after that, the judgment. So, the Devil wants people to think you just keep getting more and more chances. In reality, we have one probationary life to choose our eternal destiny. That’s very serious.

My advice is believe the Christian view. And if you’re wrong, you’ll come back as something better, anyway. So, play it safe. [Laughing] I’m sorry, I didn’t… I didn’t mean to be sarcastic.

Jëan Ross: All right, looking at our next caller, we have Mickey calling from New Jersey, listening on WMCA. Mickey, welcome to the program.

Mickey: Thank you. I’m glad to… I’m glad to get in touch.

Doug Batchelor: And your question.

Mickey: Okay. I don’t know exactly in the Bible. I read in Psalms that the writer was thanking God for his rod. So, I’m assuming that was David. Okay, then I read where…

Doug Batchelor: That’s Psalms 23.

Mickey: Okay. Well, I read it somewhere else besides Psalms 23.

Doug Batchelor: You’re right. It is several times in Psalms, I’m looking at it.

Mickey: Okay, good. All right, now, my question is… is another… can I just tell you one more?

Doug Batchelor: Sure:

Mickey: I read it in guidance in the Bible given to parents. Don’t spare the rod on your children. My question is, when it speaks of the rod, does it mean a form of discipline or does it mean an actual spanking with a rod, with a stick, with a strap, with a wooden spanking?

Doug Batchelor: Or a switch or something?

Mickey: Yes, something…

Doug Batchelor: You know, the word “rod,” and you actually keyed in on it, Mickey. The word “rod” was originally used by shepherds and they use it to correct, to keep, to protect their sheep.

Mickey: Yes, okay.

Doug Batchelor: Parents, realizing they were shepherding their children, they use the same word.

Mickey: Okay.

Doug Batchelor: That doesn’t mean that the parents had a big pole where they would beat their children but you do find in several proverbs where Solomon talks about he that loves his son will chasten him with a rod, and again, it doesn’t exactly say spare the rod and spoil the child. That sort of a summary of Solomon’s teaching.

Mickey: Okay.

Doug Batchelor: But it says, for instance, in Proverbs 22:15, “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of correction will drive it far from him.” It’s not talking about beating your kid with a baseball bat. The word “rod” was used there in the sense that parents were shepherds of their children and sometimes it might mean corporal punishment. Sometimes it might mean a spanking and… you know, I’ve had 6 kids and you got a little one that’s sticking a fork in the electric socket and you keep telling him, “No.” You might want to save their lives by swatting their hand to help them associate pain with electricity.

So, yeah. There’s… there’s biblical support for even doing that at times. You still there?

Mickey: Yes, it’s clear. But… but I-I still kind of worry about that because some parents, in their anger…

Doug Batchelor: They abuse it.

Mickey: Yes. And they say, “The Bible says don’t spare the rod.”

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. There’s note to assure other people that abuse some of these Bible teachings.

Mickey: Right.

Doug Batchelor: And even some of the statements of a… the relationship between husbands and wives. I’ve run into men that abuse those and they use it as a… an excuse to lord their power over their spouse.

Hey, thank you, Mickey. I appreciate that. And, I don’t know. We don’t really have a booklet specifically that deals well on the Christian discipline, loving them.

Jëan Ross: Our next caller is David and he’s listening in Georgia. David, welcome to the program.

David: Hey, how y’all doing?

Doug Batchelor: Doing great. How can we help you?

David: I know purgatory is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible but how did that concept come to be?

Doug Batchelor: Well, the idea was that because the… and this is something that’s unique to the Catholic Church more than Protestant churches because of their belief in original sin. They thought that if a baby is born with sin, and even though you might accept Jesus’ sacrifice, you might have residue of sin left in your life and so that needed to be purged out until you are perfectly pure enough to go to heaven. And that’s where the word “purgatory” is talking about purging. It’s the fiery sterilization that would happen in this span of time.

David: But not internal, foremost.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. But the… I think the Catholic Church, during the time of John Paul II, which is now two popes ago, abandoned the concept… it may have been the Pope Benedict, I don’t remember. I think it was Pope John Paul II, they finally renounced purgatory. So, even after years of the church teaching that, they basically said there’s really no biblical support for this. The word “purgatory” does not appear anywhere in the Bible nor does limbo. Those are things that came out of the Dark Ages.

Jëan Ross: I’ve been part of a teaching as well. People would wonder how a God of love could burn people eternally for what appears to be a life not necessarily wicked but maybe somebody who never did choose Christ. If they did come to some point of repentance at the end, maybe they could go to purgatory for a limited period of time, experience some kind of cleansing and then still have a chance to make it into heaven than those has to be forever condemned to hell.

Doug Batchlelor: Yeah, the one that is dangerous was that people would wonder, “How long is my loved one going to be in purgatory?” And the priests were very tempted to say, “Well, you know, if you make the appropriate donation, we will burn enough candles and say enough prayers to get them out.” And some people remember the famous case where the church told Yoko Ono because of John Lennon’s statements that he could not be freed from purgatory. And I guess something was going on when they finally said, “All right, well, I guess he’s suffered long enough and enough money was given.”

I’m not sure what happened but it made the headlines because he had once said that we’re more important than Jesus Christ so the church said, you know, “No amount of time in purgatory is going to be enough.” And that’s what really kind of hit the front pages. But the church there, for while there, during the Dark Ages, selling the services of priests to pray people out of purgatory and it became a business. So they kind of distance themselves from that. Hope that helps a little, David. Thank you for your question.

Jëan Ross: We have…

Doug Batchelor: Oh, by the way, David. We do have a book that talks about… a lesson that talks about hell. Is the Devil in charge of hell? And we’ll send you that for free.

Jëan Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747. The study guide is entitled, “Is the Devil In Charge of Hell?” We also have a website called helltruth.com, dealing with the subject, helltruth.com.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, that talks about purgatory there.

Jëan Ross: Very good website filled with a lot of Scripture. We have Bob who’s listening from North Carolina on WTCG. Bob, welcome to the program.

Bob: Thank you. I’m sorry if I’m asking a question someone else asked me for me. But I stumbled across your radio station a few weeks ago and you were talking with a previous caller and they asked a question. They said, “Okay, so let me see if I understand this correctly…” and I’m talking this is what they said this correctly. “If you die during the time of trouble then you didn’t make it or something of that effect?” Do you guys remember that?

Doug Batchelor: Well, nah! I was just in the Philippines for two weeks so there were some programs that took place while I was gone. I’m… it may have been another guest that was answering that question.

Bob: Okay.

Jëan Ross: You know, I think I do remember something with reference to that question. We had spoken about a time period that the Bible refers to as the close of probation. Revelation… Daniel 12:1 when Michael stands up and says, “He that’s holy, let him be holy still; he that’s filthy, let him be filthy still.”

Bob: Right.

Jëan Ross: And then you tied it in with Psalm 91, it’s about God protecting His people.

Bob: Right, and the answer was given that there was no purpose, you know, with someone dying. It’s not like, you know, it didn’t serve a purpose.

Jëan Ross: Correct. There’s no witness for that.

Bob: Well, I just… Right. I had just been studying and I stumbled across Revelations 24 and it… I mean, it jumped right out at me. “Here are these people that have been beheaded and it saith these are part of the first resurrection.” And they apparently had a chance to accept the mark of the beast either, I guess, in the forehead or the hand. And they didn’t do it.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah.

Bob: And I’m saying to myself, wait a minute! These people, obviously, are dead because they’re being resurrected…

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, there are people who died. And I know what Pastor Ross is saying. There are people who die during what they call the “small time of trouble.” This is before the seven plagues are poured out. Many people will be imprisoned, some will be beheaded, some will be tortured and die for their faith a variety of ways, and it’s because they would not receive the mark of the beast. But finally, probation closes. And once probation closes and the seven last plagues are poured out, at that point, nobody else is going to be losing their lives. Is that your understanding?

Jëan Ross: Absolutely. So the mark of the beast issue takes place just before the close of probation. We don’t know how much time is involved but that precedes the close of probation.

Doug Batchelor: Absolutely. You’re listening to Bible Answers Live.


Jëan Ross: You know, Pastor Doug, we’d like to talk about one of the websites just before the break here on a half hour. We mentioned a little earlier, helltruth.com. It’s one of the more popular Amazing Facts websites because people have a lot of questions as to what happens to the wicked and will a God of love burn people throughout all eternity.

Doug Batchelor: There’s two extremes that churches tend to fall into when it comes to the subject of the punishment of the wicked. One is that there is no punishment and that everyone’s going to be saved and there is no hell or Lake of Fire, and the Bible is very clear there is. Wicked, the sinners, will be punished according to what they deserve. The other extreme is that for billions of years, people are going to be tortured endlessly and that’s the Dark Ages’ understanding that’s popular in some churches.

Find out for yourself what the Bible teaches, friends. Go to helltruth.com, got a great website on the subject that talk about what is purgatory, limbo, all that’s explained at helltruth.com. We’re just going to take a break.


Doug Batchelor: Welcome back to Bible Answers Live, friends. And if you have a Bible question, you can call in. We have some lines open. That number, one more time, 800-GODSAYS. Two more times, 800-463-7297. That’s 800-463-7297. And if you join along the way, this is Bible Answers Live. We do our best to take your live Bible questions over the air and search the Word together and find the answers. So, my name is Doug Batchelor.

Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. We’re going to go straight to the phone lines. We have Charles. So he’s listening from Toronto, Canada. Charles, welcome to the program.

Charles: Thank you for taking my call, Pastors. I really enjoy your show.

Doug Batchelor: Thank you. Thank you for calling.

Charles: Thank you for having me. Okay, my question is I’ve heard you guys say once or twice regarding how being eternal… how can I word this? I was like being a little nervous here.

Doug Batchelor: Oh no, don’t worry about it.

Charles: Thank you. Okay. If hell is not eternal, then why did Christ come down from heaven to save us? What is He saving us from if there is an actual second death on the other side? And my same question is, is if heaven is eternal, then can we not say that hell is also eternal like the opposite is true?

Doug Batchelor: Well, hell… hell is eternal. There’s no question. The fire and the experience of burning is not eternal but the punishment of the wicked is eternal. The Bible tells us that the wicked go away into everlasting punishment. There’s no question about it. In other words, there is no pardon, there’s no forgiveness, there’s no repentance for those who are given that sentence. They are cast in the Lake of Fire and the Bible says they are consumed. Jesus said there’s two options in John 3:16 – everlasting life or perish. And the option is that we either live forever or we’re destroyed. Those are the words that are used. Again, it says in Malachi 4, the wicked will be burnt up. And then, Jesus tells us that there is no more pain, there is no more sorrow; there is no more suffering in heaven that all things are made new.

So the idea that through endless ages, God has a torture chamber somewhere in the universe where wicked are endlessly roasted, billions, zillion years down the line. I mean, you think about it, and some teenagers that just never gave their heart to the Lord but they were beyond the age of accountability and they’re going to suffer as long as Adolf Hitler. And after a trillion years go by, they stick their head up out of the sulfur and brimstone and say, “How long?” And God pushes them back and under and said, “You only started.”

I mean, it’s not really taught in the Bible that way. And yet, I’ve heard Pastors teach it that way. So, if the penalty for sin is everlasting punishment… I want to turn the question around, Charles.

Charles: Yes, go ahead.

Doug Batchelor: If the penalty for sin is everlasting punishment, did Jesus suffer everlastingly when He died? Or was there a limit to 3 days and 3 nights he was out of the grave? See what I’m saying?

Charles: Obviously not. He died…

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, so the penalty for our sin is death…

Charles: He died to pay for our sins.

Doug Batchelor: He died… exactly.

Jëan Ross: So, in other words, just to add on or ask question, Pastor Doug, what you’re saying is you’re not saying that the wicked won’t be judged according to their works. In other words, they will be degrees with reference to punishment but ultimately, even the most wicked will be consumed by the fires of hell and will be no more.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. Jesus said, “He who is…”

Charles: But therefore, there is an end. There is an end to the wicked. So the wicked will stand a thousand year as… first of all, there’s no time in hell. There’s no time in heaven either. Time is a… personally, like it’s a human thing. Once we die and we put it… I mean, for dying by the second here, the time stops.

Doug Batchelor: Well, yeah. The idea of when a person dies, if they die lost, their last thought is the one that is captured like a photograph eternally. Their last thought of darkness and separation from God is eternal. So they’ll all be punished according to what they deserve. Jesus said there are varying degrees of punishment. If everybody is punished forever, everybody gets the same punishment, unless the Lord’s got a thermostat where He just got a hotter hell for some people and others cook at a lower temperature.

So, you know, the… I think it’s pretty clear in the Bible that God is a God of love and He’s the God of justice. And the wicked in the words of justice and punishing a person a zillion… a zillion times a zillion years, think about the numbers of eternity. Punishing them where they’re feeling conscious burning for that period of time for the sins of 13 years, you know, that’s what’s turned a lot of people away from God. They say, “What’s this about you got two choices? Life or death.” The Devil said, “You won’t really die.” The Devil’s wanting to say, “You’re going to burn forever and ever.” And God said, “You will die.” He told Adam and Eve, “You will die.” And death means the absence of life. Jesus said, “You will perish.” Again, it says, “You’ll be destroyed.” It says, “You’ll be consumed.” It says, “In smoke, they’ll consume away,” and so… Have you read, Charles, the Bible study we’ve got on hell?

Charles: No. I’ll go online and take a look at it.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. It’s free, please take a look and we’ll be happy to send you one for… Pastor Ross will give you the website for hell truth again and if anyone wants the study guide.

Jëan Ross: The website is helltruth.com and the phone number is 800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide on the subject of hell, “Is the Devil In Charge of Hell?” We’ll be happy to send that to anyone who calls and ask for it.

Our next caller is Kenny and he’s listening from Paradise California. Kenny, welcome to the program.

Kenny: I have a quick question. Who, in Genesis 3:21, who killed the animal that God made those beautiful clothes of skin out of?

Doug Batchelor: Well…

Kenny: …because I-I had an argument, well not an argument but I was put down in Sunday school saying, “Are you sure that Adam killed it as a first sacrifice?” Because I thought I, too, the read books, I read that he… that he was… that he was, that’s the first time he witnessed death with sacrifice. So please help me. I need some… I need some Bible verses or something that tell me who killed that first animal.

Doug Batchelor: It tells us in the Bible, if you want a Bible verse, that the Lord God gave them robes or tunics of skin. And the word “skin” there, of course, means it came from a living creature. And it’s right there in the Garden of Eden that, with Adam and Eve, God established the sacrificial system. I think Adam had to participate in that because the way the sacrificial system worked is you would lay your hands on the head of the innocent victim and then kill it. And so, while the Lord gave them the skins… see, they tried to carry their nakedness with fig leaves and God said that won’t work and it required a death.

And Revelation refers to the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Pastor Ross, you were going to say something?

Jëan Ross: Yeah, I was just going to say the same thing where, typically, if you look at the rest of the sacrificial system, it really was the Israelites who had to take the life of the animal. And yet, God… the type of that, God provides the sacrifice in Christ. But it’s our sins that killed him.

Doug Batchelor: So, if you said that…

Kenny: You guys… you… basically, you were saying that Adam killed the animal as a first sacrifice. That’s the way I interpreted it. And when a pathetic thing... dastardly thing Adam had to do is to kill that loving animal, it’d be like killing my mother or killing my father or killing my favorite dog or something. And that would… that broke his heart, I think.

Doug Batchelor: Well, you can only imagine. When David was ready to lay down his life to save a sheep twice – once from a bear and once from a lion. And, you know, when you had to take the life of an innocent little lamb because you did something selfish and sinful, it’s supposed to make sin abhorrent.

God intended that the Hebrews understood through the sacrificial system that sin was deadly and it was ugly. He didn’t want it to become a ritual that had no meaning. And yeah, Adam was horrified by the sight of a… you know, that’s the first death in the universe when you think about it, even before Cain killed Abel. Adam and Eve need to participate in taking the life of that lamb.

Jëan Ross: You know, we got a book dealing with the subject of Christ’s sacrifice. It’s called, “The High Cost of the Cross.” And we’ll send that to anyone that calls and ask for it. The number is 800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, “The High Cost of the Cross,” talking about what Jesus did to save us. “The High Cross of the Cost…” “The High Cost of the Cross.” The number is 800-835-6747.

Doug Batchelor: That’s a tongue-twister.

Jëan Ross: It is. We have Olivia who is listening from Queens New York. Olivia, welcome to the program.

Olivia: Yes, thanks for taking my call.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. Get real close to your phone.

Olivia: My question is, were there ever a woman that ruled over Israel?

Doug Batchelor: Yes. There was a woman that ruled over Israel, that was the Northern kingdom with the 10 tribes. There was no woman who ruled over Judea. The woman who ruled over Israel was the daughter of Ahaziah and he was killed by Jehu and her name was Athaliah. And when she realized her son was dead, she did not want to compete with her grandchildren so she had all her grandchildren executed lest any of them take the throne. And she reigned for 6 years until she found out that she had missed one of her grandchildren by the name of Joash who had been hidden in the temple for 6 years. And when they brought Joash out, he was 7 at the time, they crowned him and executed Athaliah. But she was the one queen who briefly installed herself over Israel. By the way, she was the daughter of Jezebel, too.

Olivia: Yes. That’s in…

Doug Batchelor: 2 Kings 11, I believe.

Olivia: That’s in Kings Chapter 11.

Doug Batchelor: It will tell you the whole story of Athaliah there.

Olivia: Okay, thank you very much.

Doug Batchelor: All right, appreciate your question.

Jëan Ross: We have Ed who is listening from Chicago Illinois. Ed, welcome to the program.

Ed: Hello, Sirs. Good night and thank you for taking my call.

Doug Batchelor: Evening.

Ed: I have a quick question about the second coming of Jesus and it is… I’m not talking about them nonsense that everybody believes that everybody’s going to fight against future aliens. Israel’s going to defeat everyone.

Doug Batchelor: Right.

Ed: But my question is, does Syria and North Korea, and all these countries where the gospel cannot go in right now, do they have to fall for the gospel to go in and then Jesus comes? And I know Jesus and God, they can do whatever they want, I know that. But I’m wondering, is it logical to think that way or not really?

Doug Batchelor: Well, no. It is a logical way to think. You look at what happened in the Soviet Union communism fell, the doors opened for free proclamation of the gospel almost like no other time in history. There were just… there’s a river of evangelistic material and Bibles that was flowing into Russia. My wife and I went in 1992 shortly after the iron curtain fell and we did meetings for 6 weeks in Stavropol. And I think that people believe that in North Korea. We’ve also done meetings in South Korea and we’ve walked over into North Korea but they don’t let you go very far.

But I believe that North Korea, China… China, right now, there’s a little… we’ve got an ongoing work in China and our DVDs are in Mandarin all over the country right now. But… and so, the gospel is getting into China because with their communications in the internet, they’re just having a hard time keeping it out. They just don’t allow public proclamation on the streets but it’s pretty much happening. It’s not even an underground very much anymore. There are, you know, free Christian churches meeting there.

North Korea… I think that that government is going to implode. Cuba, right now, you can get into Cuba and preach. So, you’re right. Little by little, as these governments change, there’s more freedom for open proclamation. And it’s interesting, Ed, that the gospel that started in the Middle East has been sort of rapping around the world going from East to West. And it seems like the last great frontier for the gospel to reach right now, it’s going through Mongolia, it’s going to be China, North Korea, and Japan is very secular. And Japan has freedom but they’re just so secular. They don‘t care. I’ve been there and it’s just really hard to reach the Japanese people with the gospel. So, but I think that it’s sweeping there.

I came back from the Philippines last week. I was in the Philippines for 10 days and a tremendous meeting was there. So…

Ed: Fantastic.

Doug Batchelor: It is going through Southeast Asia. You’re on the… yeah, you’re on the right track, Ed. Just… we’ll pray that God brings down those barriers and need to pray for the dear North Korean people. Those folks are suffering under a despotic rulership right now and, you know, the folks have just been in darkness for a whole generation. Appreciate your question.

Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Victor and he’s listening from Florida. Victor, welcome to the program.

Victor: Good evening, Pastors.

Doug Batchelor: Evening.

Victor: Okay, when Jesus was crucified, he was surrounded by a thief and a murderer I believe. I’m not a biblical scholar at all.

Doug Batchelor: Well, two… two thieves. Yeah.

Victor: Why exactly when Jesus said, “Today, you will be with me in paradise?” Why do we think or know that Jesus took them with Him to paradise? Did they repent at the last moment on the cross or..?

Doug Batchelor: Well, there was…

Victor: What do we think?

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, there were two thieves and you find this in Luke 24 or 3.

Jëan Ross: Luke 23.

Doug Batchelor: Luke 23. And, you want to read it?

Jëan Ross: Yes. Let me back up just a little bit. Verse 40, it says, “But the other,” this is speaking of one of the thieves, “answered, rebuking him saying…” he’s rebuking the other thief. “‘Do you not even fear God, seeing that we are under that same condemnation and we, indeed, justly for we receive the due reward of our deeds this man,’” speaking of Jesus, “‘has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said to Jesus, ‘Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Assuredly, I say unto you today, you will be with Me in paradise.’”

Victor: Right.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. So, the emphasis… there’s no punctuation in the original language, Victor. What Christ is really saying to that thief is that, “I’m promising you today, you will be with Me in paradise.” And that thief, you know, he died on the cross that afternoon. Jesus didn’t go to paradise that very day because the Bible tells us that Sunday morning, He told Mary, “I’ve not yet ascended to My Father.”

Christ was saying that in the day of the resurrection, that thief would be with Jesus in paradise. He was promising him that on Friday afternoon.

Victor: Okay.

Doug Batchelor: But, yeah. He was saved, basically, in the 11th hour of his life. You’ve probably heard the expression, in the 11th hour.

Victor: Right.

Doug Batchelor: And that thief was saved at the last minute and because he repented on the cross and he publicly confessed Jesus.

Victor: Was he just in the right place in the right time or he..? You’re saying he repented. And that’s why Jesus gave him that.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah, I think he… he saw Jesus in front of them. The thief heard Jesus say, “Father, forgive them.” He saw the love of Jesus. He saw the love of Jesus for His mother while He was suffering. He saw that Jesus did not hate those that were mocking Him. And he, finally, it occurred to him while he was hanging on the cross that this… this was the Messiah.

By the way, when I was… I actually saw a crucifixion last week. While I was in the Philippines, we were not far from that town where they do a re-enactment of the crucifixion. And we went there to actually get some footage for our program we’re doing and they were about 5 or 6 people that were literally nailed to a cross, as in hoisted up. And it makes it very vivid, you know. You know, they had thieves on… people playing the part of the thief on the right and the left and it just really stirs your heart when you hear people cry out when the nails go through their hands.

But Jesus did not, even though His hands were nailed to the cross, the Devil could not keep the Savior from reaching out and saving someone. And we expect to see that thief in the kingdom.

Jëan Ross: You know, what’s so beautiful about this is you’ve got two thieves who are guilty. They’re both condemned. The one reaches out to Jesus in faith and is saved and the other does not. In a sense, those thieves can represent the whole world. Two groups of people – those who respond by faith, accepting Jesus, asking for forgiveness, and those who reject it.

Doug Batchelor: That’s right. Amen. Thank you, Victor. We appreciate your call. And by the way, we do have a booklet talking about “The High Cost of the Cross” and it talks about the subject. We’ll send you a free copy.

Jëan Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747. And the book again is entitled, “The High Cost of the Cross” and we’ll be happy to send that again to anyone who calls and asks for it. And the number here to the studio is 800-463-7297. 800-463-7297. We have Rick who is listening from Michigan. Rick, welcome to the program.

Rick: How you doing? How you doing, fellas?

Doug Batchelor: Doing great. How can we help you tonight?

Rick: Great. I have one question.

Doug Batchelor: Sure.

Rick: Did Caiaphas know who Jesus was? Did he know that He was the Son of God?

Doug Batchelor: Well, I think Caiaphas knew that he was dealing with a prophet that was very inconvenient. I think he probably was self-deceived and he told himself, “Well, you know, He can’t really be the Messiah because we believe the Messiah is going to ride into Jerusalem on a white horse and overthrow the Romans and make us a national empire once again.” They had a… they had confused the prophecies about the Messiah’s second coming with His first coming.

So, you know, I don’t want to say that I can read Caiaphas’ heart but based on what you see in the Bible, I think he talked himself into believing that Jesus must be a deceiver. But how they denied His miracles, you know, and when He rose from the dead and they paid the soldiers to lie and say they were sleeping. You know that they must’ve been going against their conscience.

Jëan Ross: You know, what I find interesting is after Jesus was crucified, you have Caiaphas and the other Jewish leaders who went to Pontius Pilate and say, “You know, this guy say that He was going to rise again on the third day. We want you to station some guards just to make sure.” Why did they even care if they didn’t feel as though there was something special about Jesus?

Doug Batchelor: Well, they told Pilate, they said, “Maybe His disciples will come and steal His body.” But I think they were afraid the same way Lazarus was resurrected, He somehow would be resurrected. They tried to prevent it.

So yes, Caiaphas is like the Devil. You know, does the Devil know that he is wrong and that he’s going to be lost? Yes. The Bible says, “Satan has come down with great wrath because he knows his time is short.” The Devil knows it, he’s… that he’s gone bad and that he’s fighting God. But pride, sometimes person… yeah, we’ve all met people that will just tell you the sky is purple even though they know it’s blue just because they’re being stubborn and they don’t want to say they’re wrong.

Rick: Thank you so very much, fellas. God bless you.

Doug Batchelor: Yeah. Thank you, appreciate your question.

Jëan Ross: We have Martha who’s listening from New York. Martha, welcome to the program.

Martha: Good night.

Doug Batchelor: Evening.

Martha: I have a question. I heard on the radio today where it’s just said that you’re not saved unless you’re baptized. But I also understood that when you confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and believe in your heart and that Jesus Christ is Lord, you’re saved. So, I thought it’s a little complex here because I’m thinking, “Well, I confessed,” I mean, over the years, but… that Jesus Christ is Lord. But then, I’ve also been baptized but I have a friend of mine who has gone to be baptized and I’m thinking, “You mean that if you’re not baptized, you won‘t be saved?” And then there were some Scriptures that he kind of backs up with. I think I’m not sure. I believe you said Mark 14:16…

Doug Batchelor: Mark 16, yeah.

Martha: Oh, it’s Mark… Mark 16.

Doug Batchelor: Where Jesus said, “He that believes and is baptized will be saved.”

Martha: So my question is…

Doug Batchelor: That’s probably the one you’re talking about. Go ahead.

Martha: Yeah. So, my question is, if you’re not baptized, you’re not saved?

Doug Batchelor: Well, if… that’s not a yes or no question. There will be people who are saved that were not baptized. If you look, the story we just talked about with another caller, the thief on the cross, he’s going to be heaven and chances are he couldn’t come down from the cross and get baptized and he hadn’t been before. But Jesus was giving him credit for his own baptism. See, Christ was not baptized to wash away His sin. So, those that can’t be baptized, I think Jesus will just give him credit for His own just like we get credit for His perfect life.

But if a person loves the Lord and they have accepted Jesus, why wouldn’t they want to be baptized if Christ commands it? That is my question. So, it is one of the things the Lord tells us to do and if we know that He’s told us to do it and we say, “You know, I don’t want to do that for whatever reason,” well, we’re living in disobedience. Jesus said, whoever believes in and is baptized will be saved. And then, Jesus said to Nicodemus, he that is born of the water and the Spirit… or you must be born of the water and the Spirit or you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jëan Ross: I think the question, Pastor Doug, is you mentioned is why would somebody not want to follow the example of Jesus publicly and confess their faith in Christ and be baptized? Baptism is sort of a new start. It’s saying, “From now on, I’m committing my life to Christ. I want to live to serve Him.” If there’s some reason why a person doesn’t want to do that, well, maybe the commitment might not be there and if somebody can’t for some reason, maybe they’re sick or, you know, they’re not able to physically be baptized, that’s a different story.

Doug Batchelor: Right. Just like when Peter said and the people said to Peter in Acts 2, “Men and brother, what shall we do?” He said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you for the forgiveness of sin.” So, and Paul when he was converted, they said, “Why tarry? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sin calling on the Lord.” So, all the way through the New Testament, baptism is as important to a Christian as a wedding is to a marriage. It’s the ceremony by which we publicly declare that we’ve accepted Christ.

Would you like… we have a free study on this, Martha. We’d be happy to send you, would you like that?

Martha: I most certainly would. Thank you.

Doug Batchelor: All right. Well, you call the number that Pastor Ross is going to give you and we’ll give you the study guide dealing with baptism.

Jëan Ross: The number to call is 800-835-6747 and the study guide is entitled, “Purity and Power.” Again, 800-835-6747. I think we’re going to try and squeeze one more caller and we’ve got George listening Wisconsin. George, we have about a minute and a half.

Doug Batchelor: Hi George, yeah.

George: Yeah, hello. Yes. I wanted to know if Native Americans are mentioned at all in the Bible.

Doug Batchelor: Well, you don’t find the word “American” in the Bible and the Lord does talk about people all over the world. And he talks about tribes all over the world. And it said the gospel of the kingdom is to go to every tongue, nation, and tribe of people. And so, Jesus, He did say, “There’s other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must call and there will be one fold and one Shepherd.” That’s in John 10 and I think He’s speaking about anybody around the world who had not yet heard the message of the gospel. Now, I think the Lord has had His people in every country and continent through history that maybe, you know, they’ve got the message from His messengers or angels. But you don’t find any specific mention of, you know, Americans-Indians per se.

I worked with the Native Americans in New Mexico for several years. Looking forward to going back again this year. Friends, we’re out of time for tonight and hope you’ve been edified, inspired, and instructed along the way. Love to talk to you more. Go to amazingfacts.org, we’d love to hear from you. Bye-bye.

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