Sins Made Whiter than Snow

Scripture: Ezekiel 10:10, Revelation 6:1-17, Romans 5:12-19
Date: 10/13/2013 
In 1959 the US army launched an ambitious project only 800 miles from the North Pole. They began building an immense complex underneath
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Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hello Friends, this is Doug Batchelor, How about an amazing fact! In 1959 the US army launched an ambitious project only 800 miles from the North Pole. They began building an immense complex underneath the frozen surface of Greenland. It was described as a center of scientific research to benefit all mankind, completed in 1959 and named ‘Camp Century’. The 200-man base was a massive underground city consisting of a network of 21 steel covered tunnels, 26 feet in diameter. One tunnel was over 1,100 feet long! Out under the frozen waste land these two miles of ice tunnels were filled with a honeycomb of pre-fabricated buildings.

The Camp Century base was powered by the world’s first portable nuclear reactor, and it boasted modern bathrooms, a recreation room, a barber shop, a library, a theater, a 10-bed hospital, a church, a laundry, a kitchen, hobby shops in addition to the administrative offices, labs, and communication facilities. The base operated from 1959 to1966, when they realized they could not keep up with the repairs due to the constantly shifting and melting ice. At that point the project was abandoned.

Then in 1997- for the rest of the story, a number of declassified papers were released! It turns out that Camp Century was actually a massive cover-up for a top secret Army program called ‘Project Ice-Warm’. Its real mission … to build a network of nuclear missile launch sites under the Greenland ice sheet! Remember this is during the Cold War - pardon the pun - and Greenland was a lot closer to the Soviet Union than the US. Today the twisted remains of Camp Century are crashed and hidden beneath the artic snows.

Friends did you know that the Bible says that a blanket of snow can cover even more than a missile base? Stay with us, we are going to learn even more than as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers live!


Pastor Doug Batchelor: Welcome listening friends to Bible Answers Live! And this is presented by Amazing Facts where we talk about the amazing facts of eternal life.

Do you have a question about the Bible, the Word of God? That is what this program is for. We invite you to call in, we have lines open right now and that phone number once more is (800) GOD-SAYS, that is 800-463-7297, with your Bible question and we will search the Word together. One more time if you were not ready, 800-463-7297. The line is open right now if you would like to get your question on tonight’s program! My name is Doug Batchelor!

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross good evening listening friends and Pastor Doug, let us begin the program with prayer! “Dear Father once again we thank You that we have this opportunity to study Your Word and we would like to invite Your presence to be with us here in the studio and be with those who are listening wherever they might be Lord, We ask that You may guide us into a clearer and fuller understanding of Your Word tonight. For we ask this in Jesus name.

Both: Amen!

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug you opened the program by talking about an incredible work of construction done under the ice at - you can just imagine the cost of building something like that, that functions for about seven years and then, that was it!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It was abandoned! And it is really incredible and people can go look at the YouTube of Camp Century that is online and they have this whole propaganda film that was put up by the Army talking about a wonderful plan to have a research center up in the polar region, but it was all a ruse!

They were trying to figure out how do we place missile silos up here in this country! And of cause it is all crashed now and nobody around where there was once a city and all of that debris has all just been squashed down by the glaciers and covered by the snow and they might still have a couple of escape hatches poking out of the snow but it reminds me when I lived in New York City. I grew up there for several years and it was not a clean city when I was a kid, it is a lot cleaner now than it was then!

And just the noise and the honking and the smells that would come up from the streets every day; and I remember waking up one morning and it was unusually quiet. I thought what is wrong? It’s quiet! And I looked out my window and wait! There had been a blizzard rain during the night, and a foot or so of snow had fallen which paralyzed the city and it was so quiet; it was so clean and it was transformed by the snow- And it makes me think about that verse in the Bible; it says in Isaiah 1:18 “Come now and let us reason together,” says the Lord, “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white like snow; though they are red like crimson, they should be like wool.” And there I am sure it’s talking about the bleached in white of the wool, soft of a sheep.

And that is what the Lord can do in our life. Does not matter what kind of garbage or sin problems there are. When we come to the Lord, surrender repent, He covers us with the blanket of His grace. And like David said, “wash me and I will be whiter than snow!” So maybe you would like to know about having that experience friends, getting a new beginning and how do you start over? And we actually have a book sort of related to our Amazing Fact, talks about someone and their conversion up in the arctic region of Siberia, not Greenland, and Pastor Ross what can you tell us about that?

Pastor Jëan Ross: The book that we have this evening is called Death Watch in Siberia and it is free for anybody who calls and asks for it! And we will be happy to send you this. Just a really inspiring story of somebody’s life who was transformed by the grace of God! The number to call is 800-835-6747 which is the resource line and ask for the book! Death Watch in Siberia. We will be happy to send it to anyone who calls and asks.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amazing testimony! Yes I hope that people will take advantage of tonight’s offer because it will bless them.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Well our first caller tonight is Jim and he is listening in Ohio! Jim welcome to the program!

Jim: Hey! How are you guys doing today? Pastor Doug, Pastor Ross, love you guys. My question is – I’d kind of like to get the Scripture for this. Are we going to eat when we are in heaven or is that just like figurative when it talks about eating?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I think it is real. First of all when God made Adam and Eve, you can see from the Garden of Eden, what God’s original perfect plan was, in the beginning before sin, was eating a part of God’s plan for humanity? Then I am assuming you know the answer is yes, I mean, Adam and Eve were supposed to eat, they were not supposed to eat the wrong thing; there was just one tree they were not supposed to eat, but they were told to enjoy and eat all this beautiful exotic fruits around the planet.

And then you read in Isaiah- and Pastor Ross might look it up; It says they “plant vineyards and eat fruits from them”- that is either Isaiah 11 or it might be 65. I get the heaven verses of Isaiah mixed up; and so we will eat, it tell us that we will sit down in Revelation and we will sup with the Lord. Jesus said at the last supper “I am not going to drink from the fruit of the vine until I drink it with you anew, in My Father’s kingdom” So there are several references through the Bible.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The one you are referring to, Pastor Doug is Isaiah 65:21, “They shall build houses and inhabit them, they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit!”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, so even with our glorified bodies- when Jesus rose from the dead; you can read in the Gospel of Luke; He asked them for something to eat! Matter of fact twice, He eats with them by the Sea of Galilee. At the resurrection He eats with them in the upper room in Luke 24. So even glorified bodies seem to eat!

Jim: Thank you I appreciate your program!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, thanks for your question Jim! Thank you for calling.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know just one more verse on that Pastor Doug, Revelation 2:17 says, “He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, to him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna to eat”-speaking of Heaven; “and a white stone with a special name written upon the stone” So we have this eating of hidden manna in heaven.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, that is true!

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is E. Franc and he is listening from New York, E. Franc Welcome to the program!

E. Franc: Yes, thank you very much Pastor Ross and thank you Pastor Batchelor. I have a question for both of you gentlemen this evening and it is a very good question in regards to marriage and salvation. If you find a person that you can get married to, but they come from another denominational faith or understanding, can you actually just try and figure out a figure or form of legally getting married to that person, because you actually love that person through Christ? And if that person is saved like you can you just admit to a civil charge, therefore the marriage can be consummated legally?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Sir I think you are asking –because a legal marriage can be consummated as long as you meet the legal criteria according to the state they do not care whether you are Christians or atheist! But you mean, Biblically, can two Christians who might be of different denominations get married? Well there are varying degrees of differences between denominations, and a couple needs to know that- of course you know Paul says we cannot be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, so that is pretty clear. But let us just suppose for a moment that you have a Protestant that wants to marry a Catholic.

Now according to Catholic theology you are not supposed to marry a Protestant and a lot of people I know had to convert in order to marry somebody, and you know that is true in many religions, while Protestants and Catholics claim to both be Christians, there are vast differences theologically that can cause serious problems in the family and they are very stark differences; in other words I am picking two opposite extremes. But suppose you get two people that are Baptist and one is a Calvinistic Baptist and one is a Free Will Baptist? Well, you are still going to have theological arguments, about predestination, but you are going to have a lot more harmony, than you would between two people who are Catholic and Protestant. Does that make sense?

E. Franc: Yes it does

Pastor Doug Batchelor: So you just need to know, it is great; Jesus said He wants us to be one and it really would be good especially if- you know the husband is the priest of the family if they are united in their faith, I think that would be very important to be of the same denomination. Okay, you mean you were going to go to two different churches? So you see what I am saying? It causes a problem there and then, how do you raise the kids? Under which brand? Anyway hope that helps a little bit, I hope I did not make it worse, I appreciate your call E. Frank

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Bradley and Bradley is listening in Michigan, Bradley welcome to the program!

Bradley: Good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Evening!

Bradley: My question is about working on the Sabbath, I am a mail carrier, I work in an elderly community to deliver prescriptions everyday but even more on Saturday. I was wondering if that would be an example of doctors and nurses?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well that is an interesting question, Even if you are a doctor or a nurse, if you are working every Sabbath so you do not have time for your rest. Obviously hospitals need to be staffed and what … we counsel Christian friends we have that are in the medical field and doing the necessary- you know there are certain medical procedures that are optional and you can schedule it. You know if you need to have a cap put on your tooth, you do not have to wake up the on the day of the Sabbath morning and say come down and do it, I mean there are some things that you can schedule that are not crucial!

But you know obviously hospitals and certain emergency things need to be staffed, and I tell Christians and I say “You ought to rotate so that you are not missing church every week!” A mail carrier that would really be a different category, because it is not specifically or exclusively delivering medical emergency care; and I would say that you ought to schedule your Sabbaths for the Lord.

I think fortunately that I have friends that are postal carriers and they applied to their superiors to get the Sabbaths off and they did! Under some of the, what are those, the laws that you are not supposed to discriminate for religion, or you can accommodate if it does not cause a hardship. I hope that makes sense, It feels like we are splitting hairs sometimes, but you know some things are urgent like making sure people are taken care of in the hospital, and other things are a little bit more optional.

Bradley: I see, that you very much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Fred and Fred is listening from Stanford Connecticut, Fred welcome to the program.

Fred: Oh yes, so do you know anything about the blood moon?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, there are a couple of verses in the Bible, where it talks about, speaking of the day of the Lord and signs of Christ coming, it says the sun will be turned to sackcloth and the moon will be red as blood, and historically in North America, there is a very unique day in history, and I forget the date was it 18- What was that? 1833 that the stars?

Pastor Jëan Ross: It was the stars, 17th

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Rather the sun went dark and the moon came up like blood?

Pastor Jëan Ross: That is right!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think that was 1833, I might be wrong …

Pastor Jëan Ross: Stars fell in 1833.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: So the dark day was …

Pastor Jëan Ross: In seventeen- something I will find out for you …

Pastor Jëan Ross: [Laughs]Anyway, there was a dark day when the sun just went dark in the middle of the day and that night when the moon came up, it was red as blood, many saw that as an historical omen, that the day of the Lord was coming, but that is going to happen again immediately preceding the second coming. Now, it is true that if there is some kind of massive forest fire, you will often see the sun go dark and when the moon comes up and if there is a lot of smoke in the air, you have probably seen a red moon before! You ever noticed that Fred? You are calling from Connecticut, I do not know if you have ever seen the sky when it is filled with forest fire smoke and the moon comes up, it can just be as red as blood.

Fred: Well I had not actually recognized that yet, but I know it is just a reference that I saw recently.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, that could be what it is talking about, there are two or three references in the Bible, one is in Joel, it’s in Revelation, Matthew 24. What was that day Pastor Ross for the …

Pastor Jëan Ross: May 19th 1780.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That was the historic day for when the moon turned blood red and we have seen more forest fires here on the west coast and so have you ever seen that before Pastor Ross?

Pastor Jëan Ross: I have and it is kind of eerie! When you see this reddish hue to the moon.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We appreciate your call. Thank you Fred.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Scott and he is listening right here in California! Scott welcome to the program!

Scott: Hi how are you?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good, good!

Scott: I am calling on Revelation 20:21-22. I do not know, I think it would best if Pastor Ross reads this he is excellent, He is so great!

Both: [Laugh]

Pastor Jëan Ross: You want Revelation 20 or Revelation 2?

Scott: Excuse me I made a mistake, Revelation 2:20-22.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright! Here we go, “Nevertheless I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols and I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality and she did not repent, Indeed I will cast her into a sick bed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Scott: Amen Pastor Ross!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And what is your question relating to that?

Scott: My question is, is Jezebel going to try to act like a prophetess? And I have another question about sexual immorality because you can actually commit spiritual immorality …

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I think that what it is talking about here is more here in Revelation, is the spiritual immorality. You know in the Old Testament Jezebel, in Revelation when it uses the name Jezebel it is asking us to look back at the history of Jezebel, just like when it talks about Balaam.

Jezebel enticed the people of Israel to … she urged her husband Ahab the king to entice the people to forsake Jehovah and to worship Baal; and so she seduced them into the immoral worship of Baal! Part of Baal worship was – they were like temple prostitutes. It was a very vulgar and immoral religion in that way.

Scott: And also I am wondering if this is going to be a dual application, Like Pastor Doug, I have heard him say dual application after Elijah and Jezebel and Ahab in the Old Testament. Is it going to repeat itself or what do you think Pastor Doug about Bible prophecy and knowing future events including the tribe of Moab. I saw this documentary about the Mormons and actually there is a Moab town in Utah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, Moab Utah, I have been there. Well let me answer your main question there, about these dual applications- it is interesting you would ask that because I am preaching on that next week! For three and a half years, Elijah had to flee during the time of famine when Jezebel was persecuting the prophets of God and that was 1,260 days.

You read in Revelation that there is another 1,260 days during the era of Jezebel. You are reading here about the church of Thyatira; and it is talking about this era of Jezebel when for 1,260 prophetic days or years, God’s prophet says, His church has to go underground and they flee into the wilderness to survive the persecutions! And there is a spiritual drought; so there is a big dual application and analogy that happens early on in the Christian era! You know I think you would really enjoy that book Scott that we have, that talks about the other woman. It talks about, kind of a spiritual Jezebel and we will send you a free copy of that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: All you need to do is call our resource line it is 800-835-6747 and the book is entitled The Other Woman. It is talking about Jezebel in its prophetic sense, and we will send that to you for free Scott or anyone who calls and ask! The number again is 800-835-6747 and the book is called The Other Woman. Our next caller is Joshua, and he is listening in Oregon. Joshua, welcome to the program!

Joshua: Good evening?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi!

Joshua: I have a question - I guess not so much an explanation, but more of advice and how to explain it to somebody or if you could explain and I could listen for a minute! Romans 5:12-19 possibly the most difficult text in the Bible for me, I have often heard it used to suggest that humans have no choice to sin, and they being [??]

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, let me read this for our friends that might be driving down the road Joshua. Romans 5:12 and you want me to read through verse 19.

Joshua: You can skip some of the middle like the hypothetical side if you think it will be helpful or you can read it all if you think you need to.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Let us take it as we go. “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world”, he is talking about Adam; through the sin of Adam we all kind of inherited these selfish natures, “and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned”, in verse 14, “from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

So here, Paul is saying Adam is the type of the One who is to come, that is Jesus, the second Adam! And then it goes on and says, “the gift of God”- let me see here, “For it is by one man’s offence, many died” I am in verse 15, “For by one man’s offence many died much more the grace of God and the gift of grace by one man Jesus Christ abounded to many” in other words and I am giving you a sort of primitive understanding, but this is how I understand it.

Through Adam’s sin, we all inherited this sort of selfish DNA, you know Adam was originally made perfect and loving, but through sin he lost that and he became selfish and sinful and all his offspring inherited that DNA. Well, when we are born again we become new creatures, God gives us His Spirit, we become like the second Adam, in the same way we are under a death sentence because of our great, great grandfather Adam; we become under ‘life’ because of the holiness of Jesus, the second Adam.

So Christ basically, as Adam spawned the human race that is born in sin, Jesus spawned the new race of His church that are born again. So this is kind of a simplistic way to explain it, but yes, we are all born and we will sin, but when we accept Christ, He saved us from that and we can become new creatures and live different kinds of lives so we are not doomed to continue sinning! That is why Paul says, “Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank my God through Jesus Christ! That I do not walk after the flesh but after the Spirit.” So you have Adam after the flesh and the second Adam -Jesus after the Spirit.

You know another interesting thought, Adam fell in a garden surrounded with every pleasure, and Jesus overcame the same temptation in a desert and half-starved, Adam went to sleep on the sixth day God opened his side and out came his wife! Jesus went to sleep on the cross, on the six day and His side was opened up and blood and water came out, the church was born! So there’s a lot of analogies - as a matter of fact I wrote a book where I take a whole chapter where I talk about the types of Adam and Christ; that just came out, so I am very interested in this subject.

Joshua: I thought you might be and it occurred to me to call and ask, I was talking to someone about this yesterday and he maintained that all this happens without any man exercising his will at all.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh no you need to choose to come to Christ and be a child of the second Adam.

Joshua: That is why I was trying to explain that this verse is not saying that it all happens independent of your choice, we still have a choice to exercise.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We did not have a choice about the first birth but we do have a choice about the new birth. We are all born physically, no one asked us, but if you want to be born of the water, you choose to do that. So yes, it is different. I appreciate your question Joshua, it is a deep one.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Rob and he is listening from Florida! Rob welcome to the program!

Rob: Thank you Sir! How are you doing tonight?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing great! How are you?

Rob: Doing good, I have a question about communication, is it written in the Bible on exactly how Jesus communicated?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You mean how He communicated when He walked the earth?

Rob: I am wondering how churches encourage His choice of communication; by spiritual memory Jesus communicated calmly equally so He could completely be completely understood by everything- I am just wondering if it is encouraged?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I think that Jesus is the model of the best communicator the world has ever seen. Matter of fact He is the most quoted communicator that I know of, you know He communicated when He walked the earth, verbally as we do. I am sure He had a very clear melodious voice, when He sat and talked to people, but He seemed to hold them spell bound because they would forget to eat. He would talk all day, and they would listen in just rapt awe! But 10% of everything Jesus said is quoted in the Bible, and so today Jesus speaks to us principally through the Word and maybe through those who expound the Word. So the Lord still talks today!

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know something else that Pastor Doug you mentioned there that, when Jesus communicated He spoke in a way that people were able to understand Him. It was the Word that Jesus said would set you free; You receive my Word it is going to make a difference in your life, so when the gospel is communicated it needs to be done in a way that is clear understandable, that people can benefit from what is being said, but if one speaks in a way that is difficult to understand or maybe using language that is uncommon, what good is that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, so it has to be clear and –Jesus was a powerful communicator, Spirit-filled; and that is the other thing, is that when we speak for the Lord we need to have the same Spirit that Jesus had, and it is the Word that transforms; and Jesus said, “ if they do not believe Moses and the prophets, then they will not believe Me” and so the ultimate thing He said was that, “ If you do not believe Me believe the Word” And so the Word of God is never going to conflict with what Jesus is trying to teach us!

Pastor Jëan Ross: We are going to be taking a break friends in just a moment, but before we do we are going to tell you about an exciting web site that Amazing facts has. It is fairly new. We have probably had it launched for three or four months now. There are still improvements that are being done but it is a great resource for those who want to study the Bible, it is called

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Absolutely! And there is nothing like this on the internet friends. If you would like to see a panorama, you can start at the beginning and zoom out and you will see that all the Bible history is divided into about twelve different sections, where it talks about the age of the patriarchs, the age of Israel and the age of Christ! And you can click on those and see that the different life spans and time lines of the different heroes in the Bible, tells you how long they lived, tells how their lives overlapped; click on each individual, there’s even videos and studies and much more!! Please take look and pass it on. We are going to take a break but we are coming back!


Pastor Doug Batchelor: We are back listening friends and I expect that some of you who have tuned in along the way, you are wondering what is this? This is Bible Answers Live! It is a program where you can call in with your Bible question and we will do our best to answer those questions. We do not have all the answers, but we have the Word of God on our laptops and in several versions, original languages and we will search together and do our best to share what we know and to search to find the truth, the truth will set you free! If you have a question, we do have lines opened right now and you have a good chance of getting your question on tonight’s program! Here is the number, 800-463-7297 will bring your Bible question into our studio! My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross; Pastor Doug we are going to go to the phone lines, our next caller is Michael, and he is listening in Kentucky! Michael welcome to the program!

Michael: Hello how are you doing?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing good, and your question tonight?

Michael: My question is about the mark of the beast.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay, Do you want us to just tell you what it is or? Any specific question?

Michael: Well I am [???] what it is

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, first of all the Bible tells us that the mark of the beast is something that is received, and you find this principally in Revelation Chapters 12,13,14. Several chapters talk about the beast but it does not really say the mark of the beast is the number 666, in other words, a lot of people have this idea that in the last days, this religious political power with the antichrist as head is going to require everyone to line up and they are going to get a tattoo or stamp in their forehead or hand that says 666!

It does not say that! It says the number 666 is the key to identifying who this power is, because it is the number of a man and using Bible numerology, different letters had a numerical value. Now, if you look, everybody in Revelation gets a mark! Everybody! Everybody listening right now, I do not know how to break this to you but in the last days, everyone gets a mark. One mark is a bad mark, the other mark is a good mark. Mark of the beast is the bad Mark. But the seal of God- it says all of the people of all God’s people have the seal of God and their Father’s name in their foreheads!

Well, I think we all know that does not mean in the last days there is going to be a tattoo artist that is putting the name of the Lord in our foreheads or our hands. And so, there is a symbolism here. One of the keys for that is if you look Michael, in for instance Deuteronomy 6:4 where the Ten Commandments are repeated, chapter five of Deuteronomy and in chapter six He says, “ these words that I command you this day shall be in your heart! You will write them for a sign upon your hand and there will be frontlets between your eyes”.

The Word of God on your hands and between your eyes. He is saying that the Word of God is to be in our heart that is obviously a symbol, that the law of God is to be in our hand and actions- and it is to be – you know our foreheads and or between our eyes means, in our thoughts! And so the mark of the beast is dealing with people who are marked because of their actions and their worship, their thoughts, they are going to be worshiping the beast in the last days. Now, it is a big study and we will identify it for you very clearly, but I am just going to ask you to ask for a free lesson because I cannot cover all 12 pages or 15 pages in two minutes. And the lesson is called The Mark of The Beast or is it ‘The Antichrist lesson’?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Mark of the Beast. The number to call is 800-835-6747, that is the resource line and just ask for the study guide on The Mark of the Beast, and it will guide you to the Scriptures and let you know exactly how a person receives the mark and what is the seal of God, so take a look at that! Our next caller is Will and he is listening from Arkansas. Will welcome to the program!

Will: Yes, I have a question. Ezekiel 1:15-21, you know I have read on the wheel that it talks about …

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, I will do my best, but I will tell you this is one of the great mysteries in the Bible. Where it talks about the wheel …

Will: That is why I was calling.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It talks about the wheel within the wheel and these creatures that move and Ezekiel saw something that was extremely intricate and complicated- or I do not even know if that is the word for it; Amazing! He is trying to describe something that sounds other-worldly! I will tell you a few things that come into my mind.

When he sees some of these creatures that are moving around and some contraption that is a wheel within a wheel! Now I drive a bull dozer, I mean I don’t do that for a living but I haven’t driven one for years, and you know how a dozer moves, you have a wheel within a wheel. A cell of life is actually- you have a nucleus within the shell or the wall of the shell and you have a wheel within a wheel. In space, our solar system, you have the sun that is actually moving, it is spinning and you have the planets that orbit that and then you have planets, moons that orbit the planets.

We are part of a galaxy that is a spiraling pinwheel of suns, it is a wheel within a wheel! And so it does not surprise me that the Lord is telling Ezekiel that these creatures that administer to Him- that are around His throne; they are somehow conveyed by some apparatus- whether it is living or inanimate, we do not know; that is a wheel within a wheel and the colors he tries to describe; and these creatures have these faces; Now the faces of the creatures, if you look on verse 10, A face like a man, a face like a lion, a face like an ox and a face like an eagle. You find that mentioned in Revelation chapter 4!

So at least John in the New Testament and Ezekiel in the Old Testament, they are seeing something very similar. Those four creatures, many scholars believe they are saying something about the characteristics of Christ! You have Jesus portrayed in Matthew as a lion! You have Jesus portrayed in Mark as an eagle; He is portrayed in Luke as Man- Luke was the physician; and He is portrayed in the gospel of John as the calf- or the sacrifice. Pastor Ross had another view point on that- I remember you shared one day, but I do not remember exactly what it was.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes we have for example the lion can also represent Christ’s ministry prior to the incarnation if you like, the ox was the beast of burden - symbol of sacrifice, Jesus came to bear our sins and die in our place, the man could be a symbol of Christ’s high priestly ministry where He is one with the son of man, He is the Son of man ,but is one with humanity and He is representing us before the Father; the eagle in Scripture often has a connotation of speed and judgment- it speaks of judgment coming upon the enemies of God’s people as an eagle! And some see that it as referring to Christ coming as a judge to execute judgment upon the wicked at the second coming!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, Well I think that these creatures, they are symbolic of the first. So telling us something about the nature of Christ and it is being sort of summarized by these characteristics! Hope that helps a little bit, but you have delved into the deeper mysteries of the Bible that I am still studying! Thank you for your call Will.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Marjory and she is listening from Michigan, Marjory welcome to the program!

Marjory: Thank you! Hi?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi, and your question?

Marjory: Okay, it is not four horseman I never have thought, but of the horse themselves, Are they spiritual?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well I think they are, I think that these horses are spiritually symbolic!

Marjory: Okay, and the colors-

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Now can I tell you why?

Marjory: Yes!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: If you look- The four horsemen; we have all heard of the four horsemen of the apocalypse and we focus on the number four, The four horsemen of the apocalypse are the first four of the seven seals that are open there in – Revelation chapters 6 and 7. They are part of something and the other seals are obviously spiritual, so we think that the first four horsemen are spiritual as well. Now you are asking about the colors?

Marjory: Yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well I think, and Pastor Ross might help me, these four horsemen represent four ages or stages of the church- they are really kind of telling of the political unfoldings of the church where the first four ages, they line up almost perfectly with the first four of the seven churches- the seven seals; the seven churches; the seven trumpets in Revelation are teaching the religious history, political history, military history of God’s people, what is going on.

The horse that is white represents the church going forth conquering and victorious- they have that first love, that is described in the first centuries, that power, that purity. Then you have a horse that is red! There is a time of great persecution, that follows and that is like the church of [??], and then you have the horse that is Black! And that represents a time of death; And then you have the pale or the grey death-like horse and that is talking about the time of real famine for the Word of God. Now, I hope I am getting those rights?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, you have the white horse …

Marjory: The information is-the last one, the pale horse was taken from a word in Greek, which actually meant green, not gray

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, it is kind of the color of a person that is dead, when the blood is drained away, it is a pale green- it is like the look of a potato shoot in a cellar- I heard someone explain it that way.

Marjory: Oh yes!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It is kind of like the deathly look that people might have … you know what? Our new Revelation Magazine has the four horsemen on the cover! You might really enjoy that Marjory, but these four horsemen says ‘Deep study on the seven seals of God’.

Pastor Jëan Ross: And of course colors are significant in Revelation. It is a prophetic book, you have white symbolizing purity and that is a description of the church during the first 100 years or so of the Christian era; and then red which symbolizes prosecution- symbol of blood and there was severe persecution from about 100 AD to 300 AD. And then you have the black horse, which is a compromising of truth! Where error started creeping into the church followed by the pale horse which is also described as the dark ages, when it was very difficult to find truth especially in the established church of the day! People that were seeking for truth had to study on their own and many of them found safety up in the mountains of Northern Italy in the Waldensian Alps. It is sort of a description of the condition of the church during those time periods.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And by the way in Zechariah 6:1-5, you have similar horses, they are not identical but they are also symbolic of what was going to happen to God’s people. Good question Marjory, I appreciate it! Thank you for calling!

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Phil and he is listening in Michigan, Phil welcome to the program!

Phil: Hello, thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, and your question tonight?

Phil: My question is that a very well-known Christian Pastor from California is seeking Islamic conferences, claiming that we all worship the same God and therefore we all need to come together and find common ground, since we worship the same God. Myself I know enough about the Quran to know that I have real problem with that. What are your thoughts on that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Let me put it to you this way, if Jesus said to His own people, “you are of your father the devil” – now these are people who are members of His church, and He said that, “ if it is true that there are people that take the name of Christ that are not even worshiping the same God according to Jesus, and if they are people who are Jews- and Christ was saying even among the Jews, while the apostles and others were worshiping the true God- people who claimed to worship the true God, Jesus said, “ no you are of your father the devil! You are not Abraham’s children!

And so how much more true would it be of a whole different religion like Islam? See what I am saying? That it is different. Yes, so I think that there are whole concepts of God- and I have some dear Islamic friends, but I think that their whole concept of God is very different! Jesus came to give us a true picture of God and the Islamic picture of God is a very different picture! So I would have to respectfully disagree with however that pastor is …

Phil: Okay, well, I appreciate your answer

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Thank you Phil, I appreciate your call

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is Annette and she is listening in New York, Annette welcome to the program!

Annette: Hi.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You are on the air!

Annette: Thank you, my question is sin, sin? Or is there any particular sin that is worse than other sin?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, all sin is bad and the penalty for sin is death! But believe it or not, there are worse varying degrees of sin. Jesus said there are varying degrees of punishment, and there are varying degrees of sin! Now which Gospel is it Pastor Ross, where Jesus said the greater sin- speaking of Judas when he is talking back to Pilate, is that John.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Let me see. . .

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Or it might be Luke- I do not remember, but Jesus made it clear that there are varying degrees of sin, because He said that Judas had a greater sin for betraying Him and Pilate for handing Him over, because Judas walked with Him for three years, he knew more.

Pastor Jëan Ross: That was John 19:11.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: The Bible tells us that He that knew his master’s will, and did not do it, he is beaten with many stripes, and he that did not know his master’s will and did not do it is beaten with few stripes. So there are varying degrees of punishment and there are varying degrees of sin. Some sins are so offensive, you have a person who steals a loaf of bread and there is one punishment according to the Mosaic Law, but if somebody killed, there is a much more severe punishment. So yes, the Bible teaches pretty clearly there are varying degrees of sin. Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit and they dropped dead instantly. That was much more severe because they knew better. Does that make sense?

Annette: Yes it does.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright thank you Annette we appreciate your call! The good news! – I hope Annette is still listening or everyone listening; while there are varying degrees of sin, the blood of Jesus is adequate to forgive all manner of sin and blasphemy, and those of you who are listening, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but Jesus’ sacrifice is capable of not only forgiving you but of transforming you and helping you to live a new life! Who do we have lined up next, Pastor Ross?

Pastor Jëan Ross: We have Say who is listening in Michigan, Say welcome to the program!

Say: Hi, how are you guys?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing good, thank you for calling.

Say: That is great! My question is- I am calling about the second coming, Where I am a bit concerned about, Well, I do not particularly believe in the rapture per se, but my question is concerning the 24th chapter of Matthew; the 29 and the 30 verse and I know that Jesus is going to come back one more time, He is not coming back three or four different times, I know He is coming back one more time, Well my question is, How is the … according to this Scripture, I just want to see if you guys agreed with it or not but …

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well we agree with all Scriptures.

Say: If you are asked to … after the sun and the moon darken, then you see the coming of the Son of man- would that not be a visual and Christians would actually be in the tribulation? You know instead of out of it we would be in it because- and that is my understanding of that Scripture.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That is a good question; I think a lot of people are wondering that. The big question then is, are the Christians going to be in the world during the tribulation or are they caught up and taken out of the world- or raptured before the tribulation? There are good Christians on both sides of this but, those of us here in this station, believe that the Christians are in the world during the tribulation and that Jesus catches them away at the end of it, that is why Jesus said that, “ he that endures unto the end will be saved!”

He talks about immediately and you are very right! Say if you look at Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun is darkened and the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from heaven, the powers of heaven will be shaken, then the sign of the Son of Man, will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” you can also read in 1 Thessalonian 4:16, it says, “The Lord himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of arch angel and the trumpet of God, and then the dead in Christ will rise.”

So the resurrection and the second coming of Jesus, happen at the conclusion of this time of trouble. One more verse that really should tie the other two I gave together and that is in Daniel Chapter 12, there the Lord says, “ At that time Michael will stand up, the great Prince that stands for the children of thy people, and there will be a time of trouble such as there never has been since there was a nation even unto that same time, and at that time thy people will be delivered, everyone that is found written in the book, and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken!”

So this resurrection that says that there is a time of trouble such as has never has been then there is a resurrection! So the second coming and the resurrection happen after the tribulation, and God’s people are not caught up until then. Well, some say, that is elect of the Jews only. There is nothing in the text that says that! It talking about God’s people, His church and those that are in Christ are Abraham’s seed. We are all one people at that point. Now we have a book Pastor Ross, that talks about the tribulation in its sequence and it is called Anything but Secret!

Pastor Jëan Ross: And Say if you would call our resource line or anyone, we would be happy to send that up! Just ask for the book, Anything but Secret! The number to call is 800-835-6747. We have Brandon who is listening in Illinois. Brandon, welcome to the program!

Brandon: Yes, My question is on Genesis 3, and I was kind of wondering after reading that countless times and hearing about it often growing up, I was kind of wondering if after Adam and Eve basically ate the fruit, would that be when time actually started?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well that is a good question! It tells us that Adam lived a total of 930 years in the Bible, and he had many sons and daughters besides Cain, Abel and Seth, but when does that time begin? It maybe God said look, I am not going to start counting your time until you are kicked out of the garden of Eden, you cannot eat from the tree of life anymore- and so Adam’s age was measured from that point on. God may have said I am measuring your age from creation!

Now I don’t know that it will matter much, here is why I think that Brandon, I do not believe that it was very long after creation before Adam and Eve fell, and the reason for that is immediately after God makes Adam and Eve and He introduces them and He performs a marriage ceremony, He says be fruitful and multiply, but they had not had a single kid yet, by the time that they fell with the forbidden fruit and so it was probably pretty short after creation that they fell. So whether you start numbering Adam’s age in creation from the day that he was spoken into existence or the day that he was kicked out of the Garden of Eden and he became mortal and started dying.

Brandon: What I meant by time was like time, for time period! Time for the …

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Oh I see what you are saying. You mean I gave all that explanation for nothing? (chuckle) But I think that time existed before then, because God set up time in the world- of course there was a Sabbath! And He had a weekly cycle that was established before Adam even sinned! So I think there was time even before He made our world. I think that the Lord, He has lived from everlasting and everlasting and He has some scope of time, you know we learn from Einstein and others that time seems to warp and bend, and God, I am sure, is not confined to time. He can take Prophets into the future and He can take them back! So good question Brandon and I appreciate that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: We have Bob who is listening from the British Virgin Islands, Bob welcome to the program!

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi Bob you are on the air!

Bob: How are you doing God’s man? it is good to hear my name on the air and my country on the air, international …

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, We are glad you’re here. You have two minutes Bob before the program is over, so what can we do?

Bob: No problem, I would like to know- that I have been hearing for years about the New Age Gospel, so it is something different or how is it we explain the New Age Gospel from the Word of God?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well I do not believe you can teach the New Age Gospel from the Word of God, I think that people use that phrase and different people kind of mean different things. Some people’s idea of the New Age gospel is that they say that, they incorporate sort of eastern mysticism and meditation into Christianity and they just say that it is all about meditating and being at one with God and is sort of a mystical eastern view of what Christianity is.

They call it New Age but it actually is very old! I hope that is what you are asking about? But Biblically I think that prayer and meditation is something else and it is talking consciously and cognitively to God. Hey Bob, I think we are going to appreciate your call I am glad we got you in briefly; I wish I could be where you are in the Virgin Islands right now and go scuba diving. Maybe someday!

Listening friends we are probably out of time. Before we can take another caller we just want to remind you, this program is on the air just because people like you are listening and seem to be blessed and edified and we are 100% supported by our listeners! You have probably heard a lot of talk show hosts and Christian ministries say that. Would you consider giving to keep us on the air? If you would like to help us just go to and you can donate online. Tell us if you enjoyed the program and make any suggestions. God bless until we talk again next week!

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