Tally Sticks

Date: 02/01/2009 
We hear a lot today about banking corruption, but the problem isn’t new. In 11th century England people were plagued by the dishonesty of creditors. To overcome this abuse in 1100 A.D. Henry the first, son of William the Conqueror, started a system known as the Tally from the Latin word for stick.
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Hello friends this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? We hear a lot today about banking corruption, but the problem isn’t new. In 11th century England people were plagued by the dishonesty of creditors. To overcome this abuse in 1100 A.D. Henry the first, son of William the Conqueror, started a system known as the Tally from the Latin word for stick. Medieval Europe was constantly short of coins and the population was illiterate. So Tally sticks were a practical substitute.

A Tally stick was commonly made from a squared piece of Hazelwood about nine inches long with each side about half an inch wide. Every time money changed hands lines were drawn across the face of the stick indicating the amount of the loan. On two sides the tally of the loan was carved into the wood. On the other two sides the names of the persons and the amount involved with the purchase in ink.

It was marked with a system of notches and lines to protect it from counterfeiting. Then split lengthwise. Each person received a half of the stick as proof of the transaction with the creditor getting one half and the debtor getting the other half. In this way the debtor had what amounted to an exact carbon copy. It was practically impossible to counterfeit a Tally and those who tried lost their heads.

The wood grain, as unique as fingerprints, had to match. The notches had to match and the ink inscriptions had to match. This could only happen if the two pieces came from the same split Tally stick. When they were put together they had to Tally which is where we get the word for reckoning. The British Empire used Tally sticks for over 700 years.

Then in 1843 because new banking systems and currencies were introduced all of the Tally sticks in England were collected in the cellar of the House of Commons and burned in the furnace. But, while burning, the old tender dried sticks overheated the flues and exploded in flames. It burned down the old House of Parliament. But the stick still lives in our life today because it is from the German word for stick that we get the word stock. We all use that to describe a security and the dubious business of Wall Street.

Friends do you know the Bible talks of another Tally stick that’s used to measure the people of God? Stay with us friends we’re going to bring you more as “Amazing Facts” brings you this edition of “Bible Answers Live”.


Pastor Doug: Welcome listening friends to a fresh serving of “Bible Answers Live”. For those who may be hearing my voice for the first time and wondering what they have found on the frequency, this is a live, international, interactive Bible study. Where we invite our friends to call in from all over the place and ask their Bible questions. Over 300 stations in North America are tuned I right now and if you have a Bible question we still have a few lines open. Pick up your phone now and call the toll free number it’s 1-800-GOD-SAYS 1-800-463-7297 and it’s not because I or Pastor Ross or God, but we are going to the book of God for our answers and so that’s where we hear what God says. 1-800-GOD-SAYS that’s 1-800-463-7297 if you have got a Bible question then pick up the phone right now. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening listening friends and welcome to “Bible Answers Live”. Pastor Doug let’s start with prayer. Dear Father again we ask for your blessing upon this program and we recognize that you do speak to us through the Bible. And we desire to have you communicate truth to us. Be with this program this evening and those who are listening. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Ross: You opened the program by talking about, stocks and sticks and various ways of tallying accounts back in old days, but then you ended by saying that God has some type of stick that He uses with reference to the judgment. What are you talking about?

Pastor Doug: That’s right. You know you can find a Scripture in the book of Revelation Chapter 11: 1 and it says there, the angel is speaking says, “And there was given to me a reed like unto a rod. And the angel stood saying rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and them that worship therein. But, the court that is without measure it not for it is given unto the Gentiles.” You know I remember growing up my mother had a place in our house where she pushed my brother and me up against the wall and measure us as we grew and it was this place kind of in between two rooms where it was like a tally where we were measured. But, here it talks about where John was given a measuring rod, a stick, how they used the stiff reed sometimes to as a ruler to measure. And it was very serious Biblically if things did not measure up.

Now this is talking about not measuring the temple and building because god already knows how big His temple is in heaven. It is talking about measuring the people of God it’s a type of judgment. By the way this verse you find in Revelation 11:1 is also found in the book of Ezekiel when it talks about the measuring of the temple went on. And ultimately everyone is going to stand before the judgment seat of God, but the judgment seat refers to God’s people. Now on earth God’s people are His temple.

The Bible tells us what know you not that ye—Paul is speaking to the church-- ye are the temple of God. And you can read where Peter says in 1 Peter 14: 17, “For the time has come that the judgment must begin at the House of God.” You can also find that there in Ezekiel 9 judgment that takes place in the house of God and the punishment for those that are found to be hypocrites. And there’s a judgment that takes place for God’s people that is separate and different for God’s people than of the world in general because they know the truth. And so our listening friends might want to know about this judgment what is it this heavenly Tally stick that John and Ezekiel are referring to?

And ultimately that Tally stick is the cross. Paul said he was determined to know nothing, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And we’re all going to be measured by what we do with the cross. What we do with Jesus and His sacrifice. But, we have a free offer tonight that talks about that judgment. That Tally and the judgment that is going on now and all people need to do is ask for it and I don’t think we have offered this in several years.

Pastor Ross: The book is called “Pending Your Case in Court” and it is free. Call our resource line 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book dealing with the judgment it is called “Pending Your Case in Court” and we will be happy to send that out to you.

Well let’s go to the phone lines. Our first caller is Hannibal listening on the internet from Los Angeles. Hannibal welcome to the program.

Hannibal: Hi how is it going?

Pastor Doug: Good. Thanks for waiting and your question?

Hannibal: Yeah Pastor Batchelor I was wondering if for the people who decide not to have children on earth because of the end and what is coming can they have children in heaven?

Pastor Doug: Alright just let me see if I heard your question. Let me state this a little differently. If for whatever reason a Christian couple maybe because we’re near the end maybe because of infertility they are not able to have children here in this life will they be able to have children in heaven? I don’t think there is a Scripture that tells us that people are going to procreate in the new earth. Now when God made Adam and Eve He told them to be fruitful and multiple because the earth was this great big acreage with no humans, but two. And so he said fill the earth. And in the new earth it’s going to be populated with the thousands and millions of the redeemed so I don’t know of any Scriptures that say we’re going to procreate there when we have our new glorified bodies. But, I think there’s going to be some children in the kingdom that don’t have parents.

Hannibal: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And I believe God is going to match those children up with parents because there are children in the kingdom. The Bible says in several verses there are children you can see where it talks about the infant playing on the hole of the venomous serpent, but it doesn’t hurt him in heaven. And a little child will lead the lion and the bear and the wolf in heaven. And so several Scriptures talk about children being in the new earth and I think maybe some children might be there and their parents aren’t there. And the angels will pair up the parents who never had the benefit of raising children on earth and they will have children in heaven.

Hannibal: Okay. Thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Alright. Thank you and we’ll pray God gives you wisdom in your decision. Our next caller is Joseph listening from WMCA in New York, New York. Joseph welcome to the program.

Joseph: Good evening gentlemen.

Pastor Doug: Good evening. Joseph how can we help you tonight?

Joseph: I would like to ask was the apostle Paul the first to preach that Jesus was the son of man?

Pastor Doug: No Jesus referred to himself as the son of man.

Joseph: Well other than Jesus who was the first to preach it?

Pastor Doug: Well I am looking here in the Bible where I can find that term. Of course Christ refers to himself many times as being and then in Acts 57 Stephen when he was being stoned. He says, “And behold I see the heavens open and the son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

Joseph: Meaning Jesus.

Pastor Doug: Right. Because the last thing Stephen says is, “Lord Jesus receive my spirit.” So he addresses the son of man as Jesus so there is no question as to who he saw.

Joseph: So he was the first?

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Joseph: When did Jesus himself consider himself to be the son of man? At what stage in His life does the Bible indicate that?

Pastor Doug: You know I think it does and the closest we are going to come is in the Gospel of Luke. When Christ goes into the temple and He’s twelve years old and his parents find Him in dialogue I think when He went to the first Passover service. Do you remember what the verse for that is Pastor Ross? When Jesus went to that first Passover I think the Holy Spirit spoke to Him and said this is all about you. And He realized that God had become incarnate in Him and He realized that He was going to be the Savior of the world and the Lamb of God. And that’s why He went and when His parents came to Him and said we’ve been looking for you for three days and He said, “Why did you look for me. Would you not or didn’t you know I would be about my Father’s business?” Identifying that He was the son of another Father.

Joseph: At the age of twelve.

Pastor Doug: At the age of twelve I think He had an epiphany. And He realized that.

Joseph: Thank you so much. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Alright Joseph I appreciate your question.

Pastor Ross: That was Luke Chapter 2:49. This is where Jesus said He had to be about His Father’s business.

Pastor Doug: You know I couldn’t remember the verse because Luke has got the longest Chapters in the New Testament.

Pastor Ross: That’s right.

Pastor Doug: And so sometimes you don’t know whether it’s 49 or 4000 in Luke.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Alberto listening on WMCA from Pleasant Hill, New Jersey. Alberto welcome to the program.

Alberto: Thank you very much and thank you for having me on the air. Just very quickly I am just a little bit concerned and disturbed about an individual that as I am sure you know Pastor Doug that an old radio man in Oakland, California that is telling people that Jesus is going to come on May11, 2011 and basically he conjures up his theology based on Daniel Chapter 11 and not the passages of Scripture. Does he know that he is upsetting the whole Christendom in general for a big let down because you can’t set dates and stuff like that, but my question is what should I do about this because I really feel like getting on the phone tomorrow and telling him you know he’s wrong and I want to say it in Christian love. But, I know I’m not going to get a fair shake so what should I do about this situation?

Pastor Doug: Well yeah I am aware Alberto and you know I don’t question the gentleman’s sincerity. He’s got a radio station that plays beautiful Christian music and they read the Bible and they have a lot of nice programs. But, when he gets on and starts teaching that the church has fallen and you shouldn’t belong to any organized church or you’re lost. Well if you’re not part of an organized church your only alternative is to be a part of a disorganized church and I think he sort of fancies that his radio station is that disorganized church that everyone is supposed to be a part of. He also set a date for Christ coming in 1996. And announced it all emphatically and of course that fell flat. So I would hope that people would remember that and steer clear of this person who is setting another date for the Lord’s return. For one thing the Lord could come sooner. But, no one knows the day or the hour. And it is very unfortunate that there are sincere people that will be listening and be deceived. You know what you might do if you call because thousands of people have called the station. And they have quoted him where no man knows the day or the hour and so he just kind of shines that off. I would say brother didn’t you also set a date for Christ coming in 1996? Could it be wrong again? And that would be the question I would ask if I had the time to call. You still there Alberto?

Alberto: I’m still here. I’m just contemplating. You just mentioned earlier on just before you got on the air about the two witnesses in the Old and New Testament. This individual also says, too, that the Old and New based on Revelation Chapter 11 where it talks about angels measuring the temple of God. They measure with the rod and the reed.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Alberto: He says that the two witnesses represent all of humanity also. And I was just driving in my car and listening to this and this was Saturday night and I was scratching my head you know what I did? I went back home and popped in your DVD from a few years back you did and watched it. I listened to that interpretation and that individual’s interpretation and it was very clear.

Pastor Doug: Yeah the Bible is real clear and I appreciate your vote of confidence. The Bible is very clear about those two witnesses. They are the word of God and the New and Old Testaments the law and the prophets. The double edged sword and it’s no question about who they are. Moses and Elijah represent the law and the prophets and that met Jesus on the mountain and they were the two witnesses that said that He was the Messiah and they represent the word of God and so this individual on the radio program his method of interpreting the Scriptures is just a little better than Christian Astrology. I am not sure what he is doing, but it is sort of like pot luck. And I appreciate your question Alberto and I’ll pray God gives you wisdom to know what to do if you give them a call and maybe others will be listening.

Pastor Ross: You know we have a book dealing with the two witnesses. And I am looking Pastor Doug if I have it. What is the name of that?

Pastor Doug: It’s called “The Two Witnesses”.

Pastor Ross: Just the two witnesses?

Pastor Doug: Did you look at the information on the Mount of the Transfiguration? And the two witnesses?

Pastor Ross: For more information about that call our resource line that’s 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book on “The Two Witnesses” and we’ll be happy to send that out to you.

Our next caller is Jeffrey listening on the internet from Edmonton, Canada. Jeffrey welcome to the program.

Jeffrey: Hi there. I had a question that I found in Ezekiel 38 and 39 it’s just dealing with the war of Gog and Magog and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on it. And was it referring to the future and whether it was literal or spiritual Israel?

Pastor Doug: Well if you go to Revelation Chapter 20—now of course Ezekiel Chapter 38-39 talk about this battle between Gog and Magog. In the Old Testament Gog was an enemy of God’s people. And you can find that in Genesis Chapter 10 it says Japheth, Gog and Magog and the word Gog and Magog are symbols of the enemies of God’s people because they were the tribes of nomads that were attacking the people of God. When you get to Revelation Chapter 20 it talks about this battle where the city of God is surrounded by the forces of Gog and Magog and they cover the earth as a cloud. Well that’s the same thing that happens in Ezekiel after the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven all of the wicked are resurrected. God uses all of the Old Testament names in Revelation to represent New Testament characters and groups. He refers to atheists in the New Testament as Egypt because the Pharoah said who is Egypt? Who is the Lord God that I should let your people go? He talks about corruption in the church as Jezebel because you have to know the Old Testament story of Jezebel because Jezebel is mentioned in Revelation. He talks about the greedy in the church as Balaam. Balaam wanted to sell the gift of prophecy for money. And He talks about all the wicked as armies of Gog and Magog. Now Magog means from the matrix or coming out of Gog. So that means Gog and its’ children. Just like you have Babylon and her daughters it’s talking about the wicked and the children of the wicked. They are attacking the city of God after it comes down to earth and God fights for it. That is exactly what happens in Ezekiel. Gog and Magog attack all of the people and cover the earth like the cloud and then God rains fire down out of heaven and destroys them that what happens in Revelation Chapter 20 when the wicked surround the city of God. So the Old Testament prophecy is a parallel of what happens in Revelation 20.

Jeffrey: Could it have a double meaning? Because I know a lot of preachers who say well it is world war 3 and Islamic groups and what have you. Could there be a dual application?

Pastor Doug: Well it is world war 3 and when world war 3 is going to be and I am being a little sarcastic and I shouldn’t. There is a major war at the end when the millennium is over. It says after the thousand years in Revelation 20 when Satan launches his attack where all of the wicked in the world attack all of the righteous in the city you’ve got the ultimate world war 3. But, you are really asking if there is another global war before Christ’s coming? There may be. Revelation 11 seems to talk about some kind of a climactic battle just before Michael stands up. And it mentions 5 or 6 Islamic countries.

Pastor Ross: Do you mean Daniel 12?

Pastor Doug: Daniel 11 yes Daniel 11 thank you Jean for listening. You were listening enough to correct me I am glad you did that. So there may be a battle I don’t know about it or if I understand all of those prophecies.

Pastor Ross: Let me read it the verse here, it is the one you were mentioning in Daniel 12:1 and it says, “At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince that stands for the children of my people. And there will be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a Nation even to that same time.” That’s this big catastrophic war that takes place.

Pastor Doug: Matter of fact we have a book on Armageddon and we’ll send you one Jeffrey if you’d like one.

Jeffrey: Perfect.

Pastor Doug: Just call our resource and ask for the book on Armageddon.

Pastor Ross: That number is 1-800-835-6747 and the book again is “Armageddon”. We’d be happy to send that out and our next caller is Dee calling from Sacramento, California. Dee welcome to the program.

Dee: Good evening Pastors.

Pastor Doug: Good evening.

Dee: I have a question it’s about—it’s in the books of Matthew and Mark. And I was wondering if the demon possessed man hat was living in the cemetery was the same in both books or is it two separate incidences?

Pastor Doug: And you’ll also find that story in Luke Chapter 8 so it is in Matthew, Mark and Luke, but the difference is I believe it was in Matthew it says there were two men and Mark ad Luke says it was one man.

Dee: Umm-hmm.

Pastor Doug: It is no question it is the same story. It’s after the storm at sea and Christ crosses the Sea of Galilee and lands in the cemetery and this demon possessed mad man storms the disciples and Christ stops him and exorcizes him from a legion of demons and the He tells him to go and tell what great things God has done. The same exact story and there are a little differences I think was it Luke mentions that he had no clothes. And Mark said he was always crying and just little differences in their report, but they don’t conflict. The main conflict is that Matthew says it was two men and Luke and Mark says it was one man. Butt, there probably was two men and one kind of hid back in the recesses and he didn’t come forward. And he did not do any speaking and so the disciples reported it as the perspective that there was one really prominent man. So I think it is the same story.

Dee: So this can be chalked up to when you see an accident and two people give a different version?

Pastor Doug: Yeah and matter of fact to me to me that validates the Bible it shows that Matthew did not just copy from Luke and Mark.

Pastor Ross: I think that the fact that the Bible mentions there were two doesn’t negate the fact that one was the spokesperson and the one that primarily interacted with Jesus. So quite possibly there were two and one stood back and the other one came forward and was one that came forward and the one who actually spoke.

Dee: I found it interesting that the location name was the same as well, but just a letter or two off from being the same name.

Pastor Doug: Yeah that’s because the Jews were describing a Greek city and they probably spelled it different ways. And keep in mind in the Bible days they did not have a set way of spelling because the Jews had been occupied by the Persians and the Greeks and the Romans that spoke Latin and Greek plus Aramaic and so you could go from town to town and have a slightly different spelling of a Greek city. It is called Decapolis the city of the gatherings. Decapolis id ten cities “deca” like a decade. Polis, “cities” and that’s probably why it had some different pronunciations and spelling.

Dee: Okay, thank you.

Pastor Doug: Good question. And by the way Dee we have a book and it is not one we can give away it is called “Broken Chains” And I wrote the book and took a couple of years to do it and the whole book is on the story of the demoniac that was liberated by Jesus. I think it is a great analogy of Salvation. And you can find that at the “Amazing Facts” website which is simply “Amazing Facts dot org”.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Lisa and she is calling from Jersey City, New Jersey and listening on WMCA. Lisa welcome to the program.

Lisa: Hi.

Pastor Doug: Hi.

Lisa: Can you hear me because I don’t have very good phone.

Pastor Doug: Yes maim.

Lisa: Okay. Well I don’t understand Revelation too well. I know the New Testament I have it all the time on CD and the Revelations, the part of the red dragon and the woman.

Pastor Doug: Are you wondering what that means?

Lisa: Yes I am.

Pastor Doug: Okay if you read in Revelation 12 Lisa what it talks about is a woman in heaven a woman clothed sun and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of the stars. This represents God’s pure church. God said you are the light of the world and she is wearing the sun. That moon represents the Old Testament that the New Testament stands upon the twelve stars over head represents the leadership or the twelve apostles. Above the head means authority. And it says there is another wonder a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his head and he is trying to devour this man child as soon as he is born. This woman is about to give birth. Well if the church brought forth Christ to the world, and when the dragon could not devour the man child because he was caught up to God’s throne and that man child is Jesus. The dragon tried to destroy the object of Jesus’ love which is the church and she fled into the wilderness. God often protects His people when they go into the wilderness. The Lord saved Israel when they fled into the wilderness. It says He feeds her there for 1260 days (that’s 3 and ½ years) when God’s church fled into the wilderness with Moses they were there 40 years and He fed them miraculously. Elijah fled into the wilderness, during a 3 and ½ year famine, and God fed him there. But, this is talking about an event in the future from Revelation and it is a prophetic 1260 days when God’s church needed to go underground because this dragon is the devil. He is that old serpent called the dragon and Satan it says in Revelation Chapter 12:9 the dragon is trying to destroy the church. And so God preserves the church. Now we’ve got a book that deals with this. Lisa, sorry I couldn’t get back to your call because we heard the music coming… it is called “The Beast, the Dragon and The Woman” and it will boy it is just exactly what you are wanting to understand. We’ll send you a free copy of this simply for asking.

Pastor Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747 that is our resource line and Lisa call that number and ask for “The Dragon, the Beast and the Woman” and we’ll be happy to send that to you.

Pastor Doug: Now for all of our listening friends. One of the reasons we love this program is we just take your quick questions and we try to provide you with resources that will give you deeper study because a lot these studies are a much deeper study and you can go to the website. And I would say Pastor Ross that 80 % of the lessons that we mention and the books that we offer you can read them for free. I will send them to you and put the hard copy in your hands or you are able to read them yourself at your leisure. Just go to “Amazing Facts dot org” and there’s a button there where it says you can click on the free stuff and a free library. Sign up for the Bible study course while you are there. We’ll be right back after these announcements.


Pastor Doug: And anyone that may have joined us along the way we are glad that you are on board. This is a live, international, interactive Bible study called “Bible answers Live”. And we invite you to call in your questions. We’re going to go back to the phones and cover as many as possible. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Ross: My name is Jean Ross. And we’re going to go to Hosanna who is listening on the internet form California. Hosanna welcome to the program.

Hosanna: Hi. I would like to know if the sea animals in Noah’s Ark if they survived the flood?

Pastor Doug: Do you want to know if the sea animals survived the flood or did he bring some on the Ark?

Hosanna: No I’m just asking if they survived the flood because they live in the sea.

Pastor Doug: Well you know some of them obviously did because if all of the sea creatures were destroyed in the flood we wouldn’t have much happening in the oceans right now. But, I think that the mud and sediment created by the flood when it was stirred up might have caused some of them to die out because they maybe couldn’t breathe very well. Shortly after the flood they were made extinct by people fishing for them or spearing them because we know there are a number of sea creatures that are extinct now. How do you say that there was this one animal that was 150 million years old and they thought it was extinct and it shelicam, I think that is what they are called and then they found that they are still alive. They found them right off the coast of South Africa.

Pastors Ross: Yeah South Africa,

Pastor Doug: An ugly fish and they thought they were all extinct and then they found one. But, they found they are still crawling around way down in the deep. So most of the sea creatures survived, but a lot of them died off from mud in their gills from the flood. And we know when we look at the fossils Hosanna I have been to places in New Mexico and Colorado where you can find sea shells a mile above the ocean in the middle of the continent. And so just miles and miles of sea shells that all got piled up during the flood. And then when the continents rose up there they were. So the only animals that Noah took on the Ark were some of the animals that could not survive in the water. Maybe the amphibians that needed a dry spot to rest themselves. But, the rest of them they just had to tough it out there in the stormy waves.

Hosanna: Okay well thank you.

Pastor Doug: Alright. Thanks for your question and we have booklet that deals with the wonders of creation. It talks a little bit about Noah and the flood and we’ll be happy to send that to you.

Pastor Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747 and the book Pastor Doug is…

Pastor Doug: Oh well you know what I’d rather she would send for”When Evolution Flunked the Science Tests” ask for a little book on evolution we’ll send it.

Pastor Ross: …Alright again 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book on evolution. Our next caller is Mary and she is calling from Hot Springs, Arkansas. Mary welcome to the program.

Mary: Thank you Pastors. I hope you all are doing fine tonight.

Pastor Doug: Doing well. How can we help you?

Mary: I have a question. When Jesus comes down to rule in the New Jerusalem will women still be able to bear children?

Pastor Doug: I had answered that at the start of the program, but I figured maybe you didn’t hear that. Jesus was referring to the new earth He said that there are no new marriages. He said they neither marry nor are they given in marriage. But they are as the angels and I think Pastor Ross is typing that verse in right now. In addition when Christ told them He wanted them to be fruitful and multiple well the earth in the new world is going to be filled with the redeemed. All of the thousands and the Bible says in Revelation Chapter 7 there’s a countless number and it says ten thousand times ten thousand. So you’ve got all the redeemed that are going to populate the earth.

Pastor Ross: Yeah that verse is Matthew 22:30.

Mary: Matthew 22:30.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Mary: Well that answers that then.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, but no one is going to be disappointed just get there and I promise you that you will be happy. I appreciate your call Mary.

Mary: Thank you Pastors. Good night.

Pastor Doug: God bless you.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Sharon listening on WMCA from New Jersey. Sharon welcome to the program.

Sharon: Hi.

Pastor Doug: Good evening.

Sharon: My question is that the Bible says that Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith. How can we be confident that we will finish the race? Like standing and holding onto the gospel. And standing firm in our faith?

Pastor Doug: Well we can be very confident about Jesus ad His promises. And if our confidence is in Christ and His word we will be confident that we will succeed. If our confidence and our attention is on our self and on others performance we’re in trouble. So even a good runner—you know the story of the tortoise and the hare. The rabbit was over confident and he lost the race because he took a nap along the way. It is dangerous for us to be saying oh well no matter what I do I don’t need to worry about running the race faithfully because Jesus is going to save me. That is dangerous because we can stumble and lose the race doing that. But, if we keep our eyes on Him and that’s the key that you read in Hebrews Chapter 12, “Therefore fixing our eyes, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.” And as long as we lay aside the weights that beset us which it also mentions in that verse. And keep our attention on Jesus and then we don’t need to worry about whether or not we’re going to win that race. That is the key.

Sharon: Alright. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: There are some verses in the Bible that encourage you. He’ll never let go of us. And He tells us he is the author and the finisher as you said and He has begun a work in you will perform it. There are a lot of promises in the Bible that God will not give up on us. We just can’t take our eyes off him though. That’s the key though. Don’t get discouraged if you fall down the Bible says a righteous man falls down seven times and he rises again. Okay?

Sharon: Thank you and your ministry is really a blessing to me. Like it has brought me like to the truth.

Pastor Doug: Praise the Lord. Hey send us your story Sharon. Just go to our website where it says contact us. Type up a little testimony we love to hear the stories about people finding the Lord. And just go to the “Amazing Facts dot org” website and let us know. I want to hear about that.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Kirk and he is listening on WPAK in Virginia. Kirk welcome to the program.

Kirk: Thank you sir I stay up late on Sunday night just to listen to you alls show. It’s very, very good. And I appreciate it.

Pastor Doug: Well I hope we don’t make you sleepy on Monday morning.

Kirk: Well that’s okay I take a nap in the afternoon. The question I have is about the Bible when it talks about the first fruit. In one place in the Bible it says the dead in Christ rise first. They are the first fruit.

Pastor Doug: That’s 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Kirk: And then in another place it says men not defiled by women will rise first. Like that might be the first fruit. I was just wondering what the difference is?

Pastor Doug: The other verse you are talking about is Revelation Chapter 7 where it says and describes the 144,000? It might also be in Chapter 14 it is mentioned two places. And it is speaking about the 144,000 and it says, “These are not defiled by women they are the first fruits.” When it says not defiled by women it has nothing to do with earthly human marriage relationships. In Revelation Chapter 17 it talks about his wicked woman Babylon and her daughters. That are defiling they are harlots. And it is saying that God’s church the 144,000—that’s 12 times 12,000 they are His people. They are not defiled with the false doctrines and the fermented wine of Babylon.

Kirk: Okay. Alright.

Pastor Doug: It is using the spiritual term there in Revelation those are more analogies than what Paul is using.

Kirk: I was wondering if that is why you have Catholic priests that weren’t supposed to marry does that come from the—

Pastor Doug: Well no I’m not sure you know the Catholic Priests may use that verse in Revelation to justify not marrying, but there’s nothing in the New Testament that says that a Pastor or Priest cannot marry all of the Old Testament Priests were married that’s how you ended up with the lineage of Aaron. If Aaron didn’t get married there would be no children.

Kirk: So the dead I Christ are the first to rise and they are the first fruit?

Pastor Doug: Well yeah there was another group that rose when Christ rose from the dead. Those were like a type of first fruits. Do you remember at the resurrection of Jesus? And find this in Matthew 28: verse 50 something. It tells us there was a great earthquake when Christ died and many of the graves of the saints who slept around Jerusalem were raised.

Pastor Ross: Yeah just to add something to that first fruits that you read about in Revelation 14:4 talking about this group of people who are alive when Jesus comes and it says they are the first fruits. So it is not referring to those who are resurrected, but rather to those who are alive. And the point being that when the first fruits that are harvested are good, that means that the rest given sufficient time would also be good. So at the end of time you have a people who fully reflect the character of God and they are the first fruits of that great harvest that is yet to come and of course, that’s those who are resurrected from the grave, those who are throughout ages believed in Christ. But, have died.

Kirk: Oh okay. Well I thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Appreciate your question. Thank you Kirk give us a call another time.

Kirk: Thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Absolutely.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Richard calling from WMCA in New York, New York. Richard welcome to the program.

Richard: Hello.

Pastor Doug: You’re on the air Richard, your question?

Richard: Hi Doug.

Pastor Doug: Hi.

Richard: Well are you an evangelist?

Pastor Doug: I am.

Richard: Okay my question—I’ve been listening to your program for a good while now. I enjoy it and find it very interesting and informative.

Pastor Doug: Well praise the Lord. What was your question?

Richard: My question is I want to know—what the Bible means when it says, Jesus said or somebody wrote in the gospel of John, I can’t remember. Let us not love in word, but in deed and in truth. What does it mean by in truth? What is truth?

Pastor Doug: Alright well that is a good question. Pastor Ross is typing in the reference there. He says He wants us to love in deed and in truth.

Pastor Ross: 1 John Chapter 3:18 “My little children let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.”

Pastor Doug: Well the Bible says we should not be hearers of the word only, but doers of the word. And for us to either just verbally agree with the truth or listen to the truth is a different thing from living the truth. So it is one thing to sing about love or talk about love or listen to someone else talk about love, but real love is demonstrated. And John was appealing and Jesus was appealing for us to act out the Christian virtues of love in our lives. And he said little children love one another. John says more about love than any other apostle. Well no question about it and so when he says to love in truth our love should be in harmony with the Bible and what true Christian love is. Hope that helps a little bit Richard and thanks for your calling and appreciate your question.

Pastor Ross: Marcia is calling from Dearborn, Michigan. Marcia welcome to the program.

Marcia: Yes good evening Pastor Doug and Pastor Ross. How are you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good.

Marcia: Well good, good. And thank you for allowing me to be on the show.

Pastor Doug: Absolutely and your question?

Marcia: Yes one of my tenants asked about the wicked being destroyed at the second coming of Christ and then being destroyed again. And I think he said something about them being destroyed at the first coming of Christ, but I think he meant the second. And then why would they be destroyed again when they were destroyed at the second coming and then be destroyed again? This is the way he asked me. He said are they going to be destroyed when Jesus comes and then are they going to be rehashed?

Pastor Doug: Alright well let me see if I can put this in a different context and it’ll be easier to understand.

Marcia: I think he is asking two questions. So are they going to be resurrected and why?

Pastor Doug: If there’s a wicked person. Let’s suppose there is some lost person or wicked person and they get into a car accident and die a week later. That person will still be raised in the judgment and judged, right?

Marcia: Right.

Pastor Doug: And then cast into the lake of fire. The way they left this world was because of a car accident, but they are still raised for their judgment and given their punishment. Some people who are alive when Jesus comes their car accident is the second coming.

Marcia: Right. Right.

Pastor Doug: They are destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming and they will still be raised again and judged, but by Christ coming it is not the judgment they are just—matter of fact I’ll just read you the verse here. 11 Thessalonians 2:8 “Then shall that wicked one be revealed whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So it’s the second coming with the hail coming down and the earth—great earthquake on the planet and there is such a convulsion in the world when Christ comes that it destroys the wicked. So that’s the train wreck that kills them physically. But, they are still raised in the great judgment day. Judged so they understand what the judgment is for and why they are being rewarded the way they are. And then they are cast into the lake of fire.

Marcia: I see they are raised so they can see why they were lost and the righteous were saved and what they, you know.

Pastor Doug: Exactly. There is a lesson that I can send you that you can also share with your tenant and it is called ”Case Closed” and it helps to remind us that a judgment day is coming.

Pastor Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747 and let me also remind you the study guide is called “Case Closed” and about our book”Pending Your Case in Court”.

Pastor Doug: Perfect that goes with the judgment.

Pastor Ross: We’d be happy to send you that.

Pastor Doug: Thank you Marcia we appreciate that.

Pastor Ross: Our next caller is Georgia calling from California. Georgia welcome to the program.

Georgia: Thank you so much. I certainly didn’t know I’d be calling. I have a question and doesn’t the Scripture say to test the spirit?

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Georgia: That it can be tested. What determines a person that is demon possessed from other bad wicked or other evil people possessed by the devil?

Pastor Doug: Well that is a good question. And apparently you can tell when a person is not following the Lord and when they are being influenced by the devil because they are selfish. But, a person being selfish or wicked is not the same as a person being possessed. Usually people who care selfish and wicked and just being led by the devil they have some inhibitions and a certain amount of self control, but they have some restraint. But, when a person is demon possessed they often lose self control and restraint and they just aren’t able to control their wickedness and actions and it’s like there are voices in their head. They can’t control and they are tormented by the possession of their minds and sometime seven their bodies they can’t control their actions. But, I believe if a man is drunk or on drugs then he’s beating his wife he’s temporarily demon possessed. Or just beating their kids some of them are have so many things that go on.

Pastor Ross: You know in some of these cases with people who are demon possessed many of them want to be delivered from that. It is not a pleasant thing and they will come and ask people to pray for them. And that is different where they are just influenced by the devil to do things that are contrary to God’s will.

Pastor Doug: Exactly.

Georgia: Now when does the Bible study come on it is Sunday only right?

Pastor Doug: Yeah the live broadcast we broadcast from Sacramento, California live every Sunday night 7-8 o’clock Pacific Standard Time. And of course you stagger that across the country whatever those times are, but it’s a rebroadcast many times through other stations through the week and in addition people can listen on the internet because they are archived there. But, we are glad you tuned in Georgia and we hope it is habit forming. We don’t really want you to be possessed by it, but want it to be habit forming.

Pastor Ross: A positive influence. Ernest is listening on the internet from New Jersey. Ernest welcome to the program.

Ernest: Yes thank you. Pastor Doug I have listened to your sermons when you say you have an equation there that Mary was equal to Mary Magdalene and she was equal to the lady who was caught in adultery and I am looking at the gospels and I just can’t see where you get that. Could you explain?

Pastor Doug: Well alright we’re talking about the woman who is caught in adultery is never called Mary she’s only mentioned in the gospel of John Chapter 8 and it never tells us her name it just tells us she is this woman who was caught and Christ says go and sin no more. Then you have Mary Magdalene who appears a couple of times and she is identified as a woman who is a sinner and she anoints Jesus’ feet—and but, then you’ve got Mary of Bethany and I don’t even know if she is called of Bethany. She is the sister of Martha and Lazarus who lived in Bethany. And she is also a woman of bad reputation who anoints Jesus’ feet. So when you do the math—first of all neither of these Mary’s are married, they both have bad reputations they are always found at Jesus’ feet. They both have substantial money because they minister to him of their substance. And that is in Luke Chapter 8. And you never find them ever mentioned in the same text. This is easy to conclude that Mary that is the sister of Martha and Lazarus of Bethany was from Magdala or she was living in Magdala and she was known Mary Magdalene and that it is the same Mary. Now whether it was also the woman that was in John Chapter 8 I hypothesize that this could have been. Because is it in the Gospel of John—I believe it is in the Gospel of John Chapter 12 when it talks about -–this woman who anoints Jesus’ feet –it simply says a certain woman who was in the city who was a sinner. It uses the same terms as it uses in John 8. Actually that is in Luke I believe—Chapter 8 where it says that.

Ernest: Okay I can understand Mary Magdalene was a sinner however, where do you get the Mary being the sister of Lazarus?

Pastor Doug: Because when Mary—when Mary--and this is John Chapter 12—when Mary served Lazarus and Martha was at the feast at Simon’s house in John 12 -–Simon said, “if Jesus were a prophet he would not let her touch Him for this woman is a sinner.”

Ernest: Oh okay.

Pastor Doug: So by the way it is no important theology stands or falls on this theory. I just wrote a book on Mary Magdalene and did a lot of studying and I came to the conclusion that they are the same Mary. But, you know what it won’t change any important theology if someone disagrees with me. And I have no burden to change anyone’s mind.

Ernest: I can see where you equate them. I understand where you equate them. I didn’t read that part.

Pastor Doug: And there’s a book that I recommend you read it online or go to “Amazing Facts” it’s called “At Jesus’ Feet”. It is not a book that we can send for free because it published by another publisher, but it’s called “At Jesus’ Feet” and you can find it at Amazon by yours truly.

Pastor Ross: I am thinking there are some resources on the website “Mary Truth”

Pastor Doug: Oh there you go there’s a website called “Mary Truth dot com” it talks about Mary Magdalene and there you’ll have some of the studies about Mary Magdalene. Just go to “Mary Truth dot com” and you will find it there. Can we get one or two more calls in Pastor Ross?

Pastor Ross: Alright let’s go to Isabel calling from Trinidad. Isabel welcome to the program.

Isabel: Hi and good evening.

Pastor Doug: Evening and the first call we’ve had from Trinidad in a long time.

Isabel: My question is Ephesians 5:15-16 where 15 “See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.” Iam a student and this is my last semester, but I feel that Christ’s second coming is soon as why am I spending all of these hours in class to study and things that? I can’t even help people in terms of informing them about spending any time witnessing and so I –

Pastor Doug: Let me—I think I hear where you are going and just to try and give you as much time s possible. You know I dropped out of college because I said the Lord is coming any day now. Why am I wasting time here reading Greek here in college? You know the Lord blessed and He still brought me into ministry and I praise the Lord for that, but you know I say if you are studying to do God’s will with your life. And you’re in school stay in school. Because first of all you can be a witness right where you are and I know it may not seem like you are doing much now, but God may have some unique plan for your life and it may not be higher education. But, I would be real reluctant to drop out of school because you think the coming of the Lord is eminent. I’d say get as much knowledge as you can and if Jesus comes while you are filling your mind with wisdom to serve Him He is not going to hold that against you.

Isabel: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And it is very easy to get excited and want to get on with your life and you wonder why am I in school studying these things when there is so much I want to do for Christ. Don’t get discouraged stick with it. And say Lord show me how I can be a witness and serve You right here. And you’ll see if He doesn’t open doors for you and give you opportunities and miracles. Thank you for your call. Can we get to one more Pastor Ross?

Pastor Ross: Alright Linda is calling from California. Linda welcome to the program.

Linda: Hi my question is on homosexuality. I know someone who goes to church and professes to have homosexuality and how are we supposed to as Christians to treat them? What are our responsibilities to them or to us or to God?

Pastor Doug: Alright let me give you as quick as I can before we run out of time. First of all we should show the love of Christ to everybody. But, because we love them we need to be honest and tell them what the Bible says. And the Bible is unequivocal and there is no question about it that we are for a person to practice homosexual lifestyle is just as wrong as wrong as fornication, adultery or even more wrong and it is being controlled by the flesh instead of the spirit and it certainly is not the natural design that God has outlined for us to. People practicing homosexuality is an abomination. Now people might struggle with homosexual tendencies and they can just say Lord I struggle with this and I pray that you will deliver me and help me to stay pure and God can help people that have tendencies to that. But, they may be tempted in a thousand other ways, but if they are practicing those things and acting out that lifestyle then the Bible is very clear that in Revelation it specifically says that homosexuals are in the lake of fire along with the fornicators and other sinners. So love them and be honest with them, and we have to share the truth because that’s what sets people free. And that’s why we do these programs friends and we’re out of time, but you don’t have to let the program end. If the website is used you will find archives of these programs. You’ll find our TV programs, you can simply go to You Tube and Google in Amazing Facts and you can find a lot of our video programs. You might type in the words “final events”. And watch that video as well. Well God bless you friend until next week and remember that Jesus is truth that will set you free.


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