Haunted by Ghosts?

Date: 10/30/2011 
In February 1941, a German U-Boat torpedoed and sank the 400-foot long SS Gairsoppa. Only one out of the 85 sailors made it to shore alive.
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Doug Batchelor: Hello friends. This is Doug Bachelor. In February 1941, a German U-Boat torpedoed and sank the 400-foot long SS Gairsoppa. Only one out of the 85 sailors made it to shore alive. In September 2011, the shipwreck was found in the North Atlantic laden with 200 tons of silver, the largest haul of precious metal ever found at sea. But now, some are concerned that recovering the treasure is going to anger the ghosts of the drowned seamen. Can ghosts protect a sunken treasure? Stay with us friends. We're gonna learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug: Welcome friends. This is Bible Answers Live and we've been on the air now for about 16 years answering Bible questions. If you have a Bible question, that's what this program for. If you have a question regarding living the Christian life with the Scriptures, give us a call now. We do have lines open. And the call is a toll free call. The number is 1-800-463-7297. Or if you want the acronym, it’s 1-800-GOD-SAYS. The number one more time is 1-800-463-7297. We'll bring you in to the studio with your Bible question and call now because lines are open. It's a good time to get in line for your Bible question tonight. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening friends. Pastor Doug, let's begin this program with a prayer.

Father once again we thank you that we have this opportunity to study your word and we ask for Your special blessing upon this program tonight. May the Scriptures come alive as we search for answers, in Jesus name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Jean Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a ship that sank with all kinds of treasure, the largest find of precious metals or silver in this case. You know, reminds me of a verse in Psalm 39 verse 6, that's say "Surely every man walks about like a shadow. Surely they busy themselves in vain. He heaps up riches and does not know who will gather them."

Pastor Doug: That's right. Well, the seaman who perished in this shipwreck back in 1941, they probably weren't the owners of the treasure. They were transporting some private silver from India to England. And this one ship got separated from its convoy and was picked off by U-Boat. Out of the 85 seamen, some of them they believe escaped in life boats but North Atlantic in the winter of February--bad place to be--and only one sailor on one of the life boats survived, safely making it back to tell the story. And his name was Second Officer Richard Ayres. Well they found these ships; I guess they had it--a company that actually invested in finding them in knowing the silver was on board. And there's a few people who were asking what about the sailors who died. I mean isn't this going to somehow disturb them because they've been guarding this treasure? You know, there's always people that are interested in what the spirits might think. That verse that you read is a good reminder that when a person goes forth, they don't know who's gonna spend the riches.

It's like Jesus said in that parable in Luke to the man who filled his barn with lots of abundant provisions, he said, "You fool. Tonight your soul is required of you than who will those things be that you've heaped up." And if we're gonna spend something, we want to invest in God's kingdom in this life because you can't spend it as a ghost. And most people misunderstand what ghosts are and what they are not. Now friends, we thought this would be a good time to let you know. We have a special offer for tonight and we have a new website. The new website that I don’t believe you've seen before, it's called ghosttruth.com. It's amazing how many people are interested in ghosts. You know I counted about half a dozen TV programs that are a series on TV that are dedicated to the paranormal to ghosts in some way. There are ghost hunters and ghost safari and ghosts-who-knows-what. And folks are just fascinated. I think it's because they’re worried about what happens when you die in the afterlife and a lot of confusion even among Christians on what the Bible says about the spirits of the dead appearing on Earth after they've died. We also have a book, Pastor Ross.

Jean Ross: The book is entitled "Spirits of the Dead." Do they speak and hear? If you like to see this book for free, call our resource line. The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book "Spirits of the Dead." We'll be happy to send that out to you and then we want to encourage you to take a look at the website ghosttruth.com. It's active now. I think, Pastor Doug, it's been up for about a week.

Pastor Doug: You have to look. There’s an interesting video there as well friends and if I'm not mistaken, you can read that book in our lesson right there at the Ghost Truth website. You can call in for the book or read it for free right now, ghosttruth.com.

Jean Ross: Well, Pastor Doug, before we go to the phone lines, we have an internet question that's come in. The question if the Bible says every "I shall see him," and that's a quote in Revelation chapter 1 verse 7, the question is what about those who are blind when Jesus comes.

Pastor Doug: Well that's a good question. You know what people typically ask? If every eyes can see him, how can every eyes see him when he comes from the heavens when the world is round? Well the easy answer for that is of course, it doesn’t say every eye sees him simultaneously.

Jean Ross: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: Probably come around the circuit of the Earth and saved or caught up to (be?) in the air, but what about a blind person? Well, I don't think it's any problem for the Lord to restore their sights so they see Him coming. At that point, we sort of entered the threshold of eternity. If they're saved, they get their glorified bodies at that moment and so they'll see him come. If they're lost, well, we'll have to wait and see (pardoned?) upon. I don’t know exactly what's gonna happen.

Jean Ross: All right. We just wanna be on the side that goes home when Jesus comes.

Pastor Doug: That's right.

Jean Ross: Not left behind. We're gonna go to the phone lines. We've got Aaron who is listening in Sacramento listening on the internet. Aaron welcome to the program.

Aaron: All right. I have a question about spiritual gifts.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Aaron: I was in a discussion with someone and they're talking about how the use and abuse and misuse the spiritual gifts like in public worship, like how's that supposed to be done?

Pastor Doug: Well most often, the gift in question in public worship is the gift of tongues. You know one of the gifts of course is teaching and I supposed some people abused that but God never designed that people should just stand up and advertised in public that they can speak in many languages. The purpose, Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 for the gift of tongues, is if someone is speaking in one language and others present cannot understand, that person should translate and that in itself--the Bible calls the word 'interpret' in the King James version--and so that is the gift. Some people have the gift of languages. Now at Pentecost it was a supernatural gift. God supernaturally gave the apostles and the disciples the ability to speak in languages, tongues they never before known or studied. and so you know sometimes we see services where people just hopped to their feet and start to you know babbling their tongue incoherently that nobody around would understands and there's no, you know, there's no real message. That's the Bible doesn't support that, that I think is an abused of what the purpose of tongues is. Now, we have a gift we can send you Aaron for free that a book called "Understanding Tongues." But is that the category of your question about that gift?

Aaron: Well, yeah, I mean it's basically is this thing like they pointed out the verse that you mentioned and (inaudible 09:03) just like the 2 verses and they built the whole doctrine around and it was just really strange.

Pastor Doug: Well, whenever you're in doubt--

Aaron: Personally.

Pastor Doug: You know you have to look over the scope of the Bible to build a doctrine. Most of what people take about tongues--there's 3 examples of tongues in the Bible: Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 10, and Acts chapter 19. In all 3 examples, there are multiple language groups present and the gift of tongues is being used to communicate. In all three cases, it says that they knew what they were saying. They were either glorifying God or they are prophesizing but so you have to let the Bible to interpret itself. The way that a lot of people used the gift of tongues in the Churches today, you don’t see that happening in the Bible. So Paul said, "I'd rather speak 5 words with my understanding that I might teach others than 10,000 in an unknown tongue," and that's in 1 Corinthians 14. Please send for the book, "Understanding Tongues." And we'll send you a free copy, Aaron. Take a look at that. Let us know what you're thinking. Call back if you have any other questions on it.

Jean Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747. The book is entitled "Understanding Tongues." We'll be happy to send that out or you can go to the Amazing Facts website. You can read it at the free library at amazingfacts.com. We have Carl who is listening from San Francisco. Carl, welcome to the program.

Carl: Thank you and thank you for your wonderful Bible study course I took.

Pastor Doug: Well, praise the Lord.

Carl: My question is on Romans 3:25 and 26, "God presented Him," which would be Jesus, "As a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in His forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Well if any in his forbearance he (accounted in?) sins against them, what about the flood? What about Sodom and Gomorrah?

Pastor Doug: Well, I don't think that God is saying in this verse that people that lived prior to Jesus did not have any accountability for sin because you see too many examples where the Lord did hold people accountable for their sins. You've got Akon who was both stoned and burned for his sin of covetousness. Back in the days of Joseph, adultery was called a sin when (inaudible 11:25) and his wife tempted him. And God said to Cain way back in the beginning, "Sin lies at your door" because of his anger and his pride with Abel. And so I don’t think Paul is saying here in Romans that people sins were not accounted against them except that the penalty for sin is death. The fact that everybody isn't dead as soon as they sinned is showing that God is very patient with people.

Jean Ross: And I think more specifically in this passage is referring to those in the Old Testament that have a spirit of repentance. You've got the example of some of the great patriarchs: Abraham who made mistakes, God was able to forgive him; Moses made mistakes, God was able to forgive him and God was able to pass over their sins that they confessed because Jesus would be the one who would ultimately pay the price for their sins, thus provide them forgiveness.

Carl: (Inaudible 12:17) what I'm getting at is though the ones like in the flood, children and so forth that never reach an age of accountability really where they can make an intelligent choice to be baptized, will they still have a future to answer at resurrection?

Pastor Doug: You know there may be some people who will be saved from Old Testament times such as folks in the flood. Let me just give you a scenario; let's supposed there were some teenager. He’s reached the age of accountability. He watched Noah built the arc. He wanted to get on board but his parents wouldn't let him. Well, we might be surprised that he could be in the resurrection of the just and so God you know ultimately is gonna be the one who's going to have to judge those things and I think we're gonna be in for some surprises. Christ said "Sin is for him who knows to do good and doesn't do it." Those who rejected Noah's offer-- they're lost-- but some maybe didn't have that opportunity. but once a person dies, there is no second chance. Bible says it's appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment. Appreciate your question now. Thank you very much.

Jean Ross: We've got Kevin who is listening in New York on WMCA. Kevin, welcome to the program.

Kevin: Yeah. My concern is navigating all of the Christians denomination. Now, I read... search all the true Church. I was listening to WMCA for the past hour and the pastor said the Mormons, they'll dismiss deriding it's a cult; the Muslims deriding the Muhammad is a false religion; and the Seventh Day Adventist deriding of Ellen White-- false religion. You know I’m 57 years old. I find it very hard to navigate all of the Christian denominations. Now my specific question is this: I speak to Jehovah's Witnesses every day. You know, they're available. They're in the streets. You know I want to talk about God. I have my Bible. What can I say to them? Are they right in all of their philosophies? But what is their main thing where they may be making a mistake? Jehovah's Witnesses.

Pastor Doug: Well, the principal difference that I think is crucial with Jehovah's witnesses is they have a problem with the divinity of Jesus. And we've actually got a book that's called "the trinity" and they would have a real problem with that. The Jehovah Witnesses typically work from a Bible called the New World translation. It has been translated specifically with the purpose in mind of trying to adjust certain sentences to eliminate the divinity of Jesus. And they think Jesus was a God that Jesus was created but the problem with that is God said all things that were made, were made by Him. And so if all things that were made, were made by Jesus--He didn't make himself. So you know Christ said He's from everlasting to everlasting then that's I think one of the principal things that I would respectfully disagree with my Jehovah Witnesses friends.

Jean Ross: You know coming back to the question of searching for the true Church, I think there's some biblical principles that we wanna follow when we search for truth. One, the Bible says to the law and the Testament "if they speak not according to this, there is no light in them." So every doctrine, every teaching, it needs to be lined up with the Bible. That is the ultimate authority and that's what we need to go by. That doesn't mean that they can’t be commentaries. They can’t be preaching in the Bible. Sure. The folks can give their final you know thoughts in different passages and Scripture but ultimately whatever is taught must line up with the Scriptures.

Pastor Doug: That's right. And while you've read the studies "The Search for the New Church" we also have a study guide. That’s called "The Bride of Christ." And if you've not seen that, Kevin, then we'll send you a free copy of that or you can get it at the Amazing Facts website--take that back--you can read it at the Bible Universe website but it's called "The Bride of Christ."

Jean Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747 and you can ask for the study guide "The Bride of Christ" and you can also ask for the book "The Search for the New Church." We have Anna who is listening from Ellensburg, Washington. Anna, welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug: Anna, you're on the air. Are you there?

Anna: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi. Thanks for calling.

Anna: Yes, I appreciate your program and I listen to it very often. The question I have is I guess I put a lot of different people and I know this is kind of a really volatile subject but talk about divorce and remarriage.

Pastor Doug: Uhum.

Anna: I know you have a book about that. I would just like to kind of bring up sort of a question or statement--I don’t know what you want to call it.

Pastor Doug: Well, best thing we deal with is a question if you can frame this as a question.

Anna: Okay. When you used the Scripture, that’s Matthew chapter 19 verse 9, I hear a lot of people and preachers also saying the first part of it and then there's a second part of it too, which I haven't heard. And wondering how come that isn't said as much as the first part of the verse? And then how come it's not mentioned in about 1 Corinthians 7 about what women should do that the options they have after a divorce? Because there's a lot of people out there, half of the people that get married now even in the Churches unfortunately go through divorce. And we don't really hear that. I didn’t' really hear the Scriptures until after it was all over and it was too late. I'm just wondering if you know, that's the first part of the question. The second part is about forgiveness and I didn't... That wasn't in my thinking at all and I thought well for good reason and you know, it's my life and stuff. And i know that there are a lot of verses about forgiveness so that's my question.

Pastor Doug: Well, that's actually a good point. Sometimes we only hear one or two verses. One of the challenges that we have on this program is we you know we try to budget 3 to 4 minutes for the call to get in as many as we can and so you can’t really do some subjects service the way they deserve. but it is true there are, first of all, a couple of exceptions Jesus made for biblical grounds for divorce: one is in the case of adultery and that's Matthew 19 that you quoted. And then you know that the rest of that verse, it goes on to say that the disciples say, "If that's the case, maybe it's good not to marry." [Laughs] and so some people are wondering you know is this a place 4where Jesus was endorsing Paul's celibacy. but Christ goes on to say some were eunuchs born of men, Some are made eunuchs, some choose to be eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake and that can mean single.

Anna: Right. I'm sorry the second part of verse 9 is what I was talking about that I don’t hear very often.

Pastor Doug: "On who ever marry her that is put away commits adultery."

Anna: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, that's right.

Anna: That's pretty serious.

Pastor Doug: It is. It is. And a matter of fact in the book of Deuteronomy I believe it is, Moses said that if a man divorces his wife and she goes and becomes another man's wife, he can't take her back. And we've run in to that even in, you know, modern times--

Anna: Right.

Pastor Doug: --where people try and reconcile.

Anna: Right. And I was not Born Again. I was a believer but not--sort of marginal-- I was not born again talk to the divorce and then when I wanted, I learned the truth and wanted to go back, it was too late because it's already a remarriage that's happened. so you know just forgiveness would be so wonderful and waiting you know for a person to come to the Lord, I hear wonderful testimonies about women that waited even in an abusive relationships and the Lord did answer their prayer and they were able to reconcile before--

Pastor Doug: Well, there's no question about God's forgiveness because you have the example in --this is in our book we just wrote--the example of the Samaritan woman who Jesus revealed to her that He was a Messiah. He wanted to reveal Himself to her and then send her to tell the tell. And if there wasn’t a hope of her salvation.... And she'd had 5 husbands and when was then living with the man she wasn't married to. Bathsheba and David certainly got started on the wrong foot but in the end, they ended up having a child together that becomes the ancestor of Christ and so they were forgiven.

Anna: Right.

Pastor Doug: You know there's no question about God's forgiveness.

Anna: I understand that.

Pastor Doug: Divorce and remarriage is not the unpardonable sin.

Anna: Right but I'm talking about the spouse forgiving the other spouse for their infidelity.

Pastor Doug: Oh, well that's another important point.

Anna: If possible.

Pastor Doug: Absolutely. Yeah when there's been infidelity and then you've got in the book of Josiah where Josiah had a wife that was wondering and he was told to take her and to forgive her. But yeah all good points. I don’t know if you've read the book yet Anna. But I hope that you do. Do you have a thought Pastor Ross?

Jean Ross: No, I’m just gonna mention that book for anyone listening wanting to learn more about what the Bible have to say about divorce and marriage and then remarriage. I said that the wrong way. It's supposed to be "Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage." Give us a call on our resource line. We can send the book to you. It's 1-800-835-6747 and asks for the book on “Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage.” And we'll be happy to send that out to you. We have Andrew who is listening on the internet. Andrew, welcome to the program.

Andrew: Hey, thanks.

Pastor Doug: Sure. Your question.

Andrew: Yeah, my question is regarding tithing. I know some people believe in doing it and some don't. I’ve read a couple of you guy's books and I believe in tithing. But my question is a little bit more specific. It’s regarding whether or not today's Christian ties their gross pay or their net pay. I also read in Bible verse in Deuteronomy 14:22, it talks about tithing all your increase and I heard one of my friends talk about that being basically be just paying your doing your tithe after you pay all your bills or something like that. I'm trying to get really specific on how to do this right.

Pastor Doug: Well, good question. I believe, in our family, we pay tithe on our gross. I tell you why. Income in other words if you only pay tithe after you paid all your bills, a lot of people would have never pay tithe. Tithe on your increase is what you've earned, it's income. Some of our pay check is nibbled at by taxes. Well taxes are an expense just like paying for your light bill or paying for food. A tax is something that we pay for to keep the roads up ostensibly to keep the politicians employed and whatever else we need in the country to keep running.

Andrew: Right.

Pastor Doug: --or to keep the soldiers in the fields so it's just like one of our bills. You've got social security. Well, you're basically taking money and put it in retirement. So some people might say, "Well, I’m gonna pay on my gross minus the social security and when I get my social security check, I'll then pay full tithe on that." So but I found that God says he'll open the windows of heaven for you, so do you want him to bless you on your net or on your gross?

Andrew: My gross, of course.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, so I just figured to just play it safe. And in our family, we find that you can't out give God. I think the Lord wants us to do it from heart, our hearts and do it faithfully. And there are sometimes gray areas.

Jean Ross: You know, Pastor Doug, we have a study guide dealing with the subject of tithing.

Pastor Doug: And Robert you said you may have read that already. Did you read our study guide called In--

Andrew: Yeah, of course. I read everything that you guys have.

Jean Ross: Okay. So you read that.

Pastor Doug: [Laughs] But anyone else might--

Jean Ross: Yeah, let me mention for anyone else. The study guide is entitled "In God We Trust" and it deals with the subject of tithing. From the New Testament perspective, the Christians today still need to tithe from the increase. To receive that for free, call our resource line. It's 1-800-835-6747 and asks for the study guide "In God We Trust." The number again is 1-800-835-6747 and we'll be happy to send that out. We have James who is calling from New York. James, welcome to the program.

James: Good night. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

James: In (inaudible 25:29) to 11, it say that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind. Where did Elijah go to when he was caught up by that whirlwind?

Pastor Doug: That's a good question. I believe that Elijah was caught up to heaven and the reason I believe that is because Elijah then appears later to Jesus. You can find that in Gospel of Mark chapter 9. It's also in Luke chapter 9 when he appears on the Mount of Transfiguration. So Elijah, I believed was carried up. And most people think that chariot, the fire, was probably was not some kind of Egyptian or Roman chariot but it was rather a band of angels, that’s where we get the spiritual. Looked over Jordan and what did I see? A band full of angels coming after me. And so often the angels of God where called the chariots of fire and I believe Elijah was caught up to heaven. And he's still there. He appeared to Jesus.

James: Yeah but (inaudible 26:26) to 16, you would see that the disciples wanted to go to look for him.

Pastor Doug: Yup.

James: And then (further down?) in (26:37 2 Chronicles) 2:11, (he would see?) several years later, the same Elijah was writing a letter to King (Jerosafath?) so he had to be some place on Earth.

Pastor Doug: Oh, no. No. when the disciples went to look for Elijah they never found him. He had been caught up to heaven. When you're reading in chronicles about the letter from Elijah that was before he was caught up to heaven. The books of Kings and the books of Chronicles were written about the same time. They're written by 2 different authors and so you're just jumping ahead when you read Chronicles and you read many of the same stories from Kings and Chronicles. So in chronicles, it talks about a letter that Elijah sent. I think he send it to Ahab. I forget. But you’re right that was before the experience of 2 Kings 2 where he was caught up to heaven. So yeah, he definitely went up to heaven. And the letter they're talking about is being written was before that. You know Pastor Ross I also want to just remind people again since we're talking about folks who've been caught up to heaven and the appearance of Elijah, some people this time of year having all kinds of apparitions. Some they're seeing things on the front lawn. And we have a new website that we want to tell you about friends. You gotto go there and look right now. It’s called ghosttruth.com. Not only look at it but link it to your friends and let us know what you think about it. You're listening to Bible Answers Live.

Jean Ross: Again Pastor Doug the website is just simply www.ghosttruth.com. There’s a great video right on the home page and watch the video and then you can go in to a series of studies dealing with the subject of what happens when a person dies. Are ghost real? Are they really a departed love ones that appear to people? What does the Bible have to say? Very important subject.

Pastor Doug: You know somebody was wondering where does the idea of wearing costumes come in from Halloween. It actually dates back to a Welsh and Celtic belief that on the 31st of October, the dead would be visiting. And so they wear mask so as to confuse the dead's spirits. So they weren't (haunt?) or bother them. So if you wanna look at ghosttruth.com friends, you'll find a lot there. We’re just taking a break. Don’t go anywhere.


Pastor Doug: We are back and we are live with your Bible questions. This is Bible answers live. For any who have joined us along the way, welcome. We’re glad you've tuned in. Hope you get a blessing and we all learn something together from the book of God. If you have a Bible question, we have a couple of lines open still. That number is 1-800-463-7297, 1-800-GOD-SAYS. We’ll bring you in to the studio and we've been telling people, tonight is a good time for us to announce that this week, we've released a new website. You’re gonna check out ghosttruth.com, ghosttruth.com. Do I need to say anymore that www part (inaudible 31:06)?

Jean Ross: We know that now.

Pastor Doug: Yeah that stands for Wild Wild West but anyway if you wanna find out more about what does the Bible say happens when a person dies. By the way at that website, a lot of people have read Roger Morneau the selling book called "The Supernatural" the last energy that Roger Morneau had. We had here with him in Sacramento before he passed away. And he got incredible testimony. It's all there at that website, ghosttruth.com. What’s next? We’re going to the phones.

Jean Ross: Yes. We've got Marie who is listening in Washington. Marie, welcome to the program.

Marie: Good evening Pastors.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Marie: I have a question on... It's actually on behalf of my aunt. It's on suicide. We, she and I have both always been taught of the suicide is the one unforgivable sin. And she has two mental illnesses. She’s bipolar and manic-depressive. She controls it with medication. She actually has a physiological reason for this. She was in a really bad car accident. And but the thing is something a really bad traumatic event happens like (inaudible 32:30) relative passing again within a few moments (inaudible 32:34) in to what she calls a downward spiral where all she can think of is suicide. She has no control over it. She does her best to fight it. And she says it's like--

Pastor Doug: Sometimes it feels like--

Marie: --she has no way of--

Pastor Doug: Overwhelming urge.

Marie: Right. And she has no... She really can’t explain this to somebody else would understand but it’s the only thing she can think of.

Pastor Doug: All right. Let me... I wanna be careful. We turn this into a question pretty quick because we're gonna run out of time before we get to answer anything.

Marie: Right. My question is what if it's a situation like that and you can’t help himself, wouldn’t God take that into consideration?

Pastor Doug: Absolutely.

Marie: Okay.

Pastor Doug: There are people... Now in suicide, it's one of the most difficult questions that we deal with because virtually everybody's listening. Now if you lived in any length of time you know somebody that got discouraged for whatever reason and they made that faithful decision-- we always like to have hope--and I think we need to leave those matters in God's hands and just trust His goodness and love. But it is a very difficult question because if the last act of a person's life is one of demonstrating of loss of faith and hope and then self-murder...

Marie: Right.

Pastor Doug: That's usually not a good indicator. Now nothing in the Bible says the unpardonable sin is suicide. Jesus could have very easily said the only sin that can’t be forgiven is suicide but he didn’t say it that way. He just referred it to a more general term as the unpardonable sin. but if you know the Lord's gonna take into account some people, especially you know had a car accident or something, there's a head injury and they're not thinking clearly; you know they'll likely be judge upon their commitment to Christ prior to you know that kind of struggle. But when a person is thinking of suicide if they're able to reason at all the idea that suicide is somehow going to usher you in to a better existence or remove your problems, that's exactly what the devil wants someone to think. Suicide does not take away the person's problems. it takes away their options and it usually seal a bad situation forever. And so if a person's tempted by suicide--well, would a person be tempted to stick their foot in the oven? No, that would hurt. So why would you be tempted for suicide? That would be worse than sticking your foot in an oven. And you know as (inaudible 35:19) gonna improve your circumstances. a Christian knows that it doesn’t improve your circumstances. So at the same time, I just wanna discouraged anybody and I want to encourage... I want to discourage anyone from doing it who is tempted to commit suicide that it is not clear thinking. A lot of teenagers struggle with that. They think that life has just become unbearable and things are gonna get better.

Jean Ross: You know Pastor Doug, I remember seeing an interview with some individuals that jump from the Golden Gate Bridge here we are in Sacramento, not too far from San Francisco. And there they're helping some people that survived the jump and there was an interview with some of the folks who survived.

Pastor Doug: That 1 out of 20 had survived.

Jean Ross: That survives. And it was interesting. The question was asked to each of this people who jumped: what was the thought when you jumped? And all of them said, "I wish I didn’t do this" that was going through their mind as they were falling. You know it's one of those decisions that you can’t go back on. And God is able to give us strength and wisdom in helping every single situation; we need to trust in him.

Pastor Doug: That’s right. We hope that helps a little bit. And, Marie, we'll be praying for you and your aunt.

Jean Ross: we've got Mark listening from Knoxville, Tennessee. Mark, welcome to the program.

Mark: All right. Thanks for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Yes, Sir.

Mark: Is there gonna be two destructions of the Earth? One at the second coming like in Matthew 13 and then the other one at the end of the millennium in Revelation 20 when fire comes down from God out of heaven.

Pastor Doug: Well there's a couple of ways of looking at it. You can say that there are two destructions and or there is really a 1000-year destruction that kind of happens in two waves. You see the Lord is gonna recreate the Earth. When He started, it was chaos and void. And Jeremiah chapter 4 verse 23 describes the condition of the Earth after the second coming. He also said that it's voided. The cities are broken down from the coming of the Lord. It's a disaster everywhere you look. And the Bible said the slain of the Lord in that day will be from one end to the Earth to the other. Well, when the Lord comes, 2 Peter 3 says, "The heavens dissolve with fervent heat. The Earth and the things in it are burned up." But then at the end of the 10,000 years when the wicked tried to take the city of God, it says "God rains fire down out of heaven and consumes them" and there's this lake of fire that people are punished in. but ultimately God makes a new heaven and a new Earth.

Mark: So it was destroyed at the beginning of the millennium, why would it need to be destroyed again after the millennium?

Pastor Doug: It's not that the Earth is destroyed at the end of the millennium, there's a judgment that takes place on the Earth. So I don't know that the Earth is anymore destroyed at the end of the millennium.

Jean Ross: You know the destruction that happens at the second coming of Christ, leaves the Earth in a very broken down conditions. Cities are broken down. The wicked are dead on the Earth but the final cleansing from sin and sinners which happens at the end of a thousand years by the fire, not only consumes the wicked, but it also purifies the Earth and then God creates the new Earth. So the fire at the end is sort of like an antiseptic. It cleanses the Earth completely from sin--

Pastor Doug: Well put.

Jean Ross: --and anything left and then God makes the new Earth.

Mark: So the actual destruction is probably the first part.

Pastor Doug: Well yeah, when the wicked are destroyed, that’s the first fire. At the end, there's a judgment and a cleansing of the earth that happens. And you can read about that in Malachi chapter 4. I think it's burned up neither root nor branch and I’m trying to remember the verse where it says you'll go forth and shed down the wicked for their ashes unto the... that's the same thing.

Mark: That's Malachi.

Pastor Doug: Malachi 4 also, "Your ashes unto the soles of your feet." So we do have a lesson that talks about --well we got one on the millennium.

Jean Ross: We have it called "A Thousand Years of Peace" that describes events at the beginning and the end. To receive that, call our resource line. That's 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide on the 1000-year period, "A Thousand Years of Peace." We'll send that out. We have Jean listening from Oregon on--let's see--that's 88.5. Jean, welcome to the program.

Jean: Yeah. Thank you. You guys are such good teachers.

Pastor Doug: Well, thank you.

Jean: My question has to do with your topic tonight, apparitions.

Pastor Doug: Uhum.

Jean: And it has to do with Samuel, in 1 Samuel 28:15-25. It talks about Samuel or Samuel talks to Saul through a medium.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Jean: Right. And repeats what he had told him before apparently but that's not my question. Was this really Samuel or was this Satan's representative who is speaking?

Pastor Doug: You know I was just listening this week to another Pastor grappling with this verse and he said "Boy, this is a tough one." And they were inclined to think that it was Samuel, I am not. I'm pretty convinced, I'm absolutely convinced that for one thing that a witch does not have the power to resurrect the prophet of God. We know that the devil can be transformed in to an angel of light. I think that's 2 Corinthians 11. And so the devil can create illusions. You can read about where it says, "They are the spirits of devil's working miracles." And the fact that this apparition--first of all, he didn't say anything new.

Jean: No.

Pastor Doug: He just basically repeated the prophecies that Samuel had said before. He then gave a totally discouraging message to Saul and basically said "You're gonna die tomorrow." Well, you didn't need to be a prophet to know that. That's why Saul was so scared. They were so terribly outnumbered by the Philistines by this battle. The army of Israel had twiddled down to nothing because they were all following David at this time. So some people have wondered if it really was...

Jean Ross: Do you know there's a verse in 1 Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13 that help us understand that this was not Samuel the prophet. Let me read it, 1 Chronicles verse 13, it says "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord even against the word of the Lord which he kept not and also for asking council of one that had a familiar spirit to inquire of it."

Pastor Doug: It was a familiar spirit which is talking about a demonic --

Jean Ross: Demonic power.

Pastor Doug: --spirit impersonating the dead person.

Jean: Okay. Well my friends said that God can bring back you know people from the dead. [Laughs]

Pastor Doug: Yeah, but I don’t know why the Lord would bring back such a noble prophet at a request of a witch. And then later it tells us that this was a familiar spirit meaning that's a devil impersonating a dead person.

Jean Ross: And, of course, one of the reasons why Saul went to the witch of Endor was because God stopped communicating with Saul through prophet, through dreams and God stopped communicating with Saul and that's why he turned to the witch.

Jean: Okay.

Jean Ross: God wouldn't work through a witch to communicate with Saul. He would have communicated to him through one of his prophets.

Pastor Doug: and then, you know, the other times I've seen in the Bible is that the Lord usually mixes a little bit of hope with a message. The message that Samuel gave was totally a hopeless message. And even when Jesus chastised the Churches, all the messages to the 7 Churches, he always gives a glimmer of hope somehow. Hey I appreciate your call very much, Jean.

Jean Ross: We've got Robert listening in Missouri. Robert, welcome to the program.

Robert: Good evening Pastors.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Robert: Question is Galatians chapter 3, verse 10 and verse 17, could you explain those 2 verses?

Pastor Doug: All right. I'll get there in just a second, Galatians 3 verse 10, you said.

Robert: Yes and verse 17.

Pastor Doug: All right. "For as many as are of the works with the law are unto the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things that are written in the law." And then verse 17, you said.

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was 430 years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Well, we probably got to start with verse 10 to start with. Okay.

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: And is there anything particular or do you just want us to expound these verses or is there a question within the verse you're wondering about?

Robert: Well, you see I followed dietary laws which have worked very well for me and I don’t know if it’s... If I'm picking and choosing what I want following and I don’t know if this falls under that category or not.

Pastor Doug: Well...

Robert: And besides you know the 10 Commandments you know I do my best to follow but in the dietary...

Pastor Doug: There's a few different categories of laws. A number of laws were nailed to the cross and those are typically the ceremonial laws that came after sin. They came after Moses with the temple and its services. The distinction between clean and unclean foods and not eating blood, those things dates back to Noah and everybody hearing my voice right now is related to Noah so the basics of healthful living, those health laws or principles that are just you know scientific common sense today. They weren't hundred years ago. I think those are still to be observed by Christians. They’re just mostly common sense and sanitation and staying away from unclean food.

Robert: (Inaudible 44:57) for a year.

Pastor Doug: So there you see, you're seeing the benefits of that already.

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: so a lot of what's happening in Galatians--cause I'm actually doing a study in Galatians right now--a lot of what's happening in Galatians is Paul is addressing Gentile Christians that were being (accosted?) by Jewish Christians, saying they needed to keep the ceremonial laws. And Paul specifically mentions in chapter 4 that you're keeping the days and the months the years. And they were celebrating all of the Ceremonial Sabbath and the rebuilding of the temple and kind of man made laws. That’s in a different category than the practical law of health, the laws of health and the laws of the moral law, the 10 Commandments.

Robert: Okay.

Pastor Doug: By the way, one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shall not kill," and that includes yourself. And so like if a person is smoking and it says on the pack this is gonna kill you, well you're obviously breaking the 10 Commandment law. It is a health law too. You know what I mean?

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: So a lot of those health laws, they do fit in to the 10 Commandments.

Jean Ross: We've got a study guide dealing with the subject with what the Bible has to say about your health. It's called "God Free Health Plan." Robert, if you haven't seen the lesson, you'd enjoy it. Or anyone listening, call our resource line. It's 1-800-835-6747. And you can ask for the study guide entitled "God's Free Health Plan." and then we have another Robert listening from New York. Robert in New York, welcome to the program.

Robert: Yes, good evening Doug Batchelor and your colleague and peace to you and to all the listeners across the land and all parts everywhere. My question is dealing with those that hold the doctrine of the soul extinction or souls asleep. I wonder how they can hold it in the light of some verses that I have here. And if I, you know, may present them, you know what? I do have the (inaudible 46:52)--

Pastor Doug: Why don’t we take them one at a time?

Robert: Yeah. Okay. All right. Appreciate that but the first one is in Matthew chapter 10 verse 28, Jesus tells us "Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I understand how they can hold that soul is actually not an entity. I mean when God... I believe that when God made Adam, He made his body and his soul. Put his soul in the body. And at death, his soul is gonna be required back. And here Jesus...

Pastor Doug: Do you believe a soul can die?

Robert: Well I think when that is spoken, it is spoken figuratively because the soul is immortal. And you might be speaking of in Ezekiel for example where he said "The soul that sins, it shall die." But Paul said like in his letters, he says "You have been a dead (entrusted?) him (inaudible 47:55)," I think he was saying he was dead figuratively in your souls. So I think when it's speaking of souls, it must necessarily been understood that it's a figure of speech when it says the soul is dead. For example, there is certain writings like the Book of Enoch--it's one that I want to talk about--it says the soul would be slain in (seal?). You know when it seems like it would be again and again. They seem to have a (power souls do have more fingers?)

Pastor Doug: Right. So now you believe that the soul is immortal then?

Robert: Yes.

Pastor Doug: All right. Can you show me your verse that says the soul is immortal?

Robert: Well, we just read it but they're not... "Those that have been murdered for Jesus sake, they did not kill their souls." There's one.

Pastor Doug: well, I know but the rest of that verse says, "Fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." That's the same verse you've read.

Robert: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: It says that--

Robert: Can you read...

Pastor Doug: --the soul and body can’t be restored.

Robert: You read that latter part, I think one other verse but you didn't read the half part of it that I read. Here's how I understand that last part if you're referring to that part. When the body and the soul together will be destroyed, I believe is at the resurrection and the judgment when the souls are reunited with the bodies that were joined within this life and at that time, the whole compositive if you will is some of them are gonna get thrown in the furnace of fire, body and soul together, a horrible thing.

Pastor Doug: Robert.

Robert: I bet Jesus was talking about that.

Pastor Doug: Let's assume were gonna call a draw on this verse because I can see where you might take it either way. What's another verse that you have that it says we have an immortal soul?

Robert: The gospel of Mark, for example, chapter 12 and verse 26 and 27, Jesus does talking to the Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection. So he is discussing with them how the dead will rise but in so doing he said, "Have you never read to them?" He said to the Sadducees, "Have you never read that when God spoke to Moses speaking of Moses forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were now deceased, he said "have you not read that God said 'I am the God of Abraham.'" He didn't say 'I was the God of Abraham.' "I am the God of Isaac" and he didn't say 'I was the...' "I am the God of Jacob" and he didn’t say 'I was the God of Jacob.' And Jesus points it out, he says "for he is the God of the living, for all live unto him." He said it over in Luke in the correlating verse in Luke (inaudible 50:25).

Pastor Doug: I believe that, of course that's not saying anything immortality. He’s talking about the saved. I do believe in everlasting life is given to the saved. I think you and I agree on that. I don’t believe that everlasting life is given to the loss. I think that the loss perished according to John 16.

Robert: I would agree on you on that but it's given to the saved, I agree. but the fact that they're still living I mean, did not Moses (inaudible 50:48)--

Pastor Doug: Well, when a person is sleeping, are they alive or dead?

Robert: Well, I think when it says sleep its referring to the body. And it says it's a funny thing...

Pastor Doug: Well when Jesus said "our friend Lazarus sleeps" and then Jesus said "Lazarus is dead," Jesus said that. He said "I'm gonna tell you that he's dead" and then after 4 days of being dead and he was raised, Lazarus makes no comment about I was in heaven or I was in hell or I was anywhere," is because he was asleep. He was you know dreamless sleep. He had no dream even.

Robert: Yes, well even with Christians, it speaks of like they never gonna really die you know the Scripture in John’s gospel. He did (inaudible 51:26) believes in he shall never die. So with Christians, they really don’t have to go to hell or to that experience of the pains of death. And I believe that that's involved in it because it's the dual nature here: body and soul, I believe is what being dealt with. But what about the verses Doug and your colleague about (inaudible 51:44)--

Pastor Doug: My colleague is Jean Ross. [Laughs]

Robert: What's that?

Jean Ross: Go ahead Robert.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I could tell you my colleague’s name.

Robert: Yeah. I don't know his name is so that's why I can’t call his name. His name is what?

Pastor Doug: It's an imitation of Jean. It's Jean.

Jean Ross: But John is fine.

Pastor Doug: but yeah, you can answer to Jean.

Jean Ross: We'll take it easy.

Robert: Okay. We'll thank you for that letting me know. Revelations 1... I'm sorry, Revelations 6:9 where it talks about the souls.

Pastor Doug: The souls unto the altar.

Robert: Yeah. Yeah. Are you conscious? They were conscious. They had been beheaded...

Pastor Doug: Well, let's think about that now. Revelations is full of visions, right?

Robert: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Do you really believe that the saved are crying under an altar? That wouldn't be a very happy experience for the saved. I mean there was something like they're having a good time.

Robert: They're crying for vengeance but it's not like they're suffering because the word where it says they should rest for a little while--I looked it up in the Greek--

Pastor Doug: Okay, then there you go.

Robert: --It means that they should refresh, (repose?), rest continue for a while where they at so time like they're indestruc-- but there is somehow--

Pastor Doug: Well that is the same language.

Robert: In the soul that would fight for justice.

Pastor Doug: Robert, that's the same language that's used in the beginning where God says to Cain, “The blood of your brother cries, Abel cries to me.” Well, the blood is not little blood cells aren't screaming from the ground, it's you know, it's a poetic language about justice crying out.

Robert: Have you not believe the verse in Revelations 6:9 that says the souls where crying out to God?

Pastor Doug: Of course, I believed it but I don't believe that the...

Robert: Oh, but they were beheaded

Pastor Doug: --visions in Revelation are literal, if you really think that there is a woman in the last day's riding a dragon was 7 heads and 10 horns, (inaudible 53:16) a symbol.

Robert: Well, I mean that's another point but this case they were beheaded and they had in the testimony and the (inaudible 53:20)…

Pastor Doug: So their heads are off and they're crying?

Robert: souls were conscious and asking the Lord to do something.

Pastor Doug: I think this is a vision. I mean they're under the altar. This is all of Revelation takes place in the typography of the temple. This is a vision. And you know Robert you got some good questions and I really would love to spend more time talking to you. I mean that but can I invite you please look at the website ‘Death Truth.’ If nothing else, so you'll have new ammunition, deathtruth.com, got a lot of answers for these questions here. We're gonna try and get one or two calls in before we're out of time. Thank you, Robert.

Jean Ross: All right. We have another Robert who is listening in New Jersey. Robert in New Jersey, we've got about a minute to go. What's your question?

Robert: Okay. Good evening Pastor Ross and Pastor Doug. My question's concerning Moses. According to Deuteronomy 34, Moses passes away and of course the Pentecost is finished. Now if Moses died, who finished that writing in the 3 month resurrection, where in the Bible does it say he's resurrected even the Book of Jews?

P: All right.

Robert: There he’s Michael and seen to argue with the body of Moses.

P: Yeah, let me real quick.

Robert: (inaudible 54:43) resurrected.

P: All right. We’re gonna run out of time here so I just wanna make sure I can answer that. I think it’s clear that Joshua or the author of Joshua finished the Book of Deuteronomy cause Joshua chapter 1 verse 1 says, "Now after the death of Moses," It's almost a continuation of Deuteronomy 34. They really run together. And so Joshua obviously gives the account about Moses death. He was with Moses when he went up to get the 10 Commandments. He was probably with Moses when he went up to Mount Nebo or at least not far away. And so I'm sure he gave the account. Moses, we know has been resurrected cause he appears to Jesus as we mentioned earlier on the Mount of Transfiguration. And we do have a book that talks about that. And it's called "The Two Witnesses" Robert. If you want to either look online and or call amazing facts, we'll be happy to send you a copy of the Two Witnesses." Friends, don't forget to check out the ghosttruth.com, new website. I think you'll enjoy it. God bless. Until next week.

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