Delayed Delivery

Date: 10/23/2011 
In 1914, British World War I soldier Private Thomas Hughes tossed a green bottle in the English Canal containing a letter to his wife. He was killed 2 days later fighting in France but then ...
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Pastor Doug: Hello friends. This is Doug Batchelor. In 1914, British World War I soldier Private Thomas Hughes tossed a green bottle in the English Canal containing a letter to his wife. He was killed 2 days later fighting in France but then in 1999, a fisherman, Steve Gowan, found the bottle while fishing in the Thames River. It was eventually delivered to Hughes' 86 year old daughter who was living in New Zealand. Some messages seem like they're delayed. Stay with us friends. We're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug: Hello listening friends. Welcome to Bible Answers Live and if you're turning in for the first time, this is as it sounds, a live international interactive Bible study. And you can participate. If you like to call in with a Bible question, we've got several lines open. Now is a good time to call. That number one more time is 1-800-GOD-SAYS that's an acronym for 1-800-463-7297. One more time if you like to call in with your Bible question, we are live it's 1-800-463-7287. And my name is Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Good evening listening friends, Pastor Doug, let's begin the program with a prayer.

Father, once again we ask You to be with us as we study Your word this evening. Be with those who are listening wherever they might be and, Lord, we do ask for is to recognize that the Bible is Your book and in order to correctly understand it, we want the leading of the Holy Spirit so we invite your presence, in Jesus name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Jean Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by talking about a delayed delivery not just a matter of weeks or months but years for that letter to get, well, eventually to the daughter. But boy that was a long delay.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, it's amazing that it was found at all. He just on a whim took the notes, scratched it out, put it in a actually a green beer bottle, tossed it in the English Channel. He knew he was on his way to the frontlines. And eventually it was found. And his wife had passed away but it was delivered to his daughter who at this point, 86 years old and living in New Zealand. And sometimes it seems like when we think about delay, some people think the Lord's coming has been delayed. And Jesus foretold that that would be the case. Even as recently as 2 days ago, another prominent ministry had been foretelling a date for the Lord's coming and that date came and went. We were not that ministry. Bible says, "No man knows the day and the hour," but Jesus did tell us that it is going to seem like he has been delayed when the time finally comes. In Matthew 24 where Jesus is talking about the second coming, he said "Who then is a faitful and wise servant, whom His Lord has made ruler over His household to give them their meat in due season? He'll make that servant ruler over all that he has. But if that evil servant" and htis is verse 49, Mathhew 24:49, "If that evil servant will say in his heart, 'My Lord delays his coming,' and shall begin to smite his fellow servants and eat and drink with the drunkards. The Lord of that servant will come in a day that he's not looking for him." You know, even in the parables, Jesus tells in the next chapter, chapter 25 when the parable of the 10 virgins, it says, "When the bride groom was delayed." And then you think about when Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 Commandments. It says, "When they saw that Moses delayed coming back, it was a time of testing. And we've always believed that as we near the end of time, the Lord had told us "There may seem like a delay." That's why in Revelation, it says, "Here's the patience of the saints. And those who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." And so maybe folks are wondering about how do you interpret these prophecies about the second coming. And is the Lord going to come on time or is he late?

We have a special offer that's gonna help answer that question.

Jean Ross: We have a book entitled, "Anything but Secret." It's talking about the second coming of Jesus dealing with some of these prophecies. If you like to receive this absolutely free, call us on our resource line. The number is 1-800-835-6747 and you can ask for the book, "Anything but Secret." Again, the number is 1-800-835-6747. Ask for the book "Anything but Secret." Well, Pastor Doug, I think we're ready to go to the phone lines. Our first caller this evening is Victor and he's calling from New York listening on WMCA. Victor, you're on the air.

Victor: Yes I am. I'm right here.

Pastor Doug: Hi, Victor. How are you?

Victor. I'm doing very well, Mr. Bachelor. I've got a question regarding Jesus Christ, His kingship and His high priesthood. We're told that he is in those from the line of Melkizidek which I understand. And when you look a little further, you get biblical evidence as to his Kingship. We receive the lineage shown to us in the book of Matthew and also in the book of Luke but as far as his priesthood goes, there seems to be no biblical evidence. We're told He's a priest but was no biblical evidence. He does not come from the line of Levi and from what I understand, all the high priest need to come from the line of Levi.

Pastor Doug: Well, I would respectfully disagree. I think there was a priesthood before you ever get to Levi. The patriarchs of the various clans offered sacrifice for their families. Abraham was the high priest, for instance, of his tribe before Israel was ever born, Jacob was ever born. Job, he offered sacrifice and interceded for his family. So then when it talks about the priesthood of Melkizidek, I think Paul is making a point in Hebrews that Jesus comes from a priesthood that is separate from the priesthood of Aaron that precedes the priesthood of Aaron. It goes all the way back. And then you know, you get to Hebrews, it also tells us, "For we have such a High Priest that is entered into the presence of God," and it does say that's Jesus. So you're right, it's not after any Jewish line as with Levi or Aaron but it's after the tribal kingship of with the kind of Melkizidek had. By the way, Melkizidek is a type of Christ in the story where Abraham greets him on his way back from the battle. It says, "Melkizidek came up bringing bread and wine." Of course Jesus, he basically consecrated the New Testament with us when he offered the grape juice and the bread. And then it says that the name Melkizidek means King of Righteousness. And it says, "He's without beginning nor end," meaning there's no genealogy given for Melkizidek in the Bible so it looks like he's endless. And Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting. And then Abraham pays tithe to him. and typically, you know, the people would pay Priest to the greater and or the people would pay to their tithe rather to the priest. And so Paul is making an analogy that Christ is after an order or a type of priesthood like Melkizidek.

Jean Ross: You know It's all interesting when you look in both Exodus as well as Leviticus and even all the way down in to Numbers, God called for the first born to be consecrated to Him for special service but then you read over in Numbers chapter 3 verse 41 where it says, "And you shall take the Levites for me, I am the Lord instead of all of the first born amongst the children of Israel." So the first born was to be consecrated to God to be in a special way in His service but then God chose the tribe of Levi to do that special work. So in a sense, Christ is the first born and He does function in that role as High Priest. In Hebrews chapter 8 verse 1, it says that we have a high priest who ascended up in to heaven, who is ministering on our behalf.

Victor: And the previews quote was from numbers 3:41, you say.

Jean Ross: Numbers 3:41.

Victor: Terrific. Thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: You're welcome. And now we have a study guide that deals with the subject of a sanctuary, don't we?

Jean Ross: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: And... Is that the one, "God Drew the Plans"?

Jean Ross: "God Drew the Plans."

Pastor Doug: It talks about the Priesthood of Christ. And that we know technically, we are a nation of Kings and Priest also. Hey, Pastor Ross, you know before we take our next caller, I forgot to mention when we started out, we are streaming today. We're still doing these practice runs, practice runs or test runs of our video streaming of this program. If people would like to tune in, they can just type in And they can join us visually as well as through the auditory senses.

Jean Ross: All right. Next caller is Ron and he is listening from Dickson, Tennessee. Ron, welcome to the program.

Ron: Good evening and thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: You're welcome.

Ron: Does this count from Numbers chapter 22 verses 20 to 22 and it was said this, "And God called Balaam at night and said to him, 'If the men comes to call you, rise and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you that you shall do.'” So Balaam rose in the morning, saddled his donkey and left with the princes to Moab, from princes of Moab." Verse 22, "And God's anger was aroused because he went." Now, it seems to me that he did what God told him to do so why was his anger aroused?

Pastor Doug: Now--

Ron: I have a theory but I want to hear Pastor talks first (in response?).

Pastor Doug: Okay. Yeah, it is a difficult passage but if you read earlier in Numbers when Balak first send messengers and said you know, "Come and curse Israel," God told him very definitively, "Do not go because this is my people, I've blessed them." But they were offering Balem rewards and he really coveted after the rewards. And he kept saying, "Look, I'll hang around a little longer, maybe God will change his mind." And so the Lord basically said, "Well, if I leave the door open for you to go, will you go?" And he went running after the rewards that he might get to curse the people God had said He blessed. And so really the Lord tested him and then when the angel stood him in the way, he said "You know I'm surprised that you are gonna do this."

Jean Ross: Uhum. You know there are times where God allow people to make their own choices even if God revealed His will, he does keep people freedom. And he was able to use that situation to really illustrate God's blessing upon Israel.

Ron: Uhum.

Jean Ross: And yet it was never God’s first choice or first option.

Pastor Doug: One more example, Ron, would be where it wasn’t Jesus' will that Judas turned into a traitor.

Ron: Right.

Pastor Doug: And at the last supper when Judas had his mind made up to get that 30 pieces of silver, Jesus said "Do with thou doest quickly" That didn't mean that the Lord wanted him to but he had his heart set on it.

Ron: The second part of God's instructions where it now brings another question. It's like he was giving him a chance to go but God accepted. Let’s say he says, "If only the word which I speak to you that you shall do."

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Ron: It's like you go with them and then when you get there, you do what I tell you.

Pastor Doug: Yeah and--

Ron: But he never got that chance.

Pastor Doug: No, well he didn't actually get there and I think he wanted to curse his (will?) and get the reward but God was letting him know before he left that even more than any prophet, He said "I am not even gonna allow you to utter. When the spirit comes on, you are gonna say what I tell you to say. You're not gonna even be allowed to utter or curse and." So I think he was giving him additional warning.

Jean Ross: You know I think--

Ron: That guy I thought he never got there because the donkey stopped.

Pastor Doug: No, he doesn't stop going and every time he opens his mouth to try to curse his, a blessing comes out.

Ron: Okay.

Jean Ross: You know it all say illustrates that even though God gives people freedom, there is a point where God says "You can’t go any further than this." And in this case, God wouldn't allow this curse to come up on Israel because God had blessed his people.

Ron: Right. Yeah. Okay.

Pastor Doug: All right. Appreciate your call. Thank you, Ron.

Jean Ross: We've got Barry listening from Queens, New York. Barry, welcome to the program.

Barry: Yes, thank you for taking my call. Quick question. Well, I wanted to know is it biblical for a woman to be a pastor.

Pastor Doug: You know there's no... That's a very direct question. There's always a... That's a very contentious subject. I mean I've seen Churches divide over this as much as just about anything. I've got to give you a Bible answer. We're committed to that on this program and there is no example in the Bible of a woman being ordained as a pastor, apostle, priest, elder. Those are the (pastorly?) roles in the Bible or the equivalence. We do have women who are evangelist. We do have women that are prophets but that's really a different role. The Bible does present a patriarchal spiritual leadership that husbands should be the servant leaders in their homes. Everyone that offers sacrifice in the Bible, they're consistently men. There are 7 miracle babies born in the Bible that types of Christ. You know, Isaac was a miracle birth because Sarah was barren and John the Baptist and Samson's mother. Angel's appeared during all these births. There were visions. All of them are male children because they are all types of Christ. It's not that God is a (inaudible 15:23). It's just that, you know, there are distinctions between men and women. And in God's arrangement of the family, He designed it men should be the priest of the family but there's roles for women to minister in a thousand capacities. But the pastoral role is consistently in the Bible identified as a male role.

You know, we have a book on that. I can send you Barry. I don’t know if where you can take this down or remember it but it's a book that I wrote on the subject called, "Women in Ministry." And we'll send you a free copy. It's got all the Scripture on it, "Women in Ministry."

Jean Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, "Woman in Ministry." And we'll be happy to send that out to you, Barry, or anybody else wanting to learn more about the subject. We have Vick who is listening from Detroit. Vick, welcome to the program.

Vick: Good evening gentlemen. Thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Vick: I have a question for you. I got your book (later?), "Are the Dead really Dead?"

Pastor Doug: Uhuh.

Vick: And I was going over it. But in the Bible, when John was put in prison and they told John that they were gonna kill him and he didn't care. He said "Absent in body. Present with the Lord." Can you explain that to me?

Pastor Doug: Yes, first of all. John doesn't say that in prison. There's no Scripture where you're gonna hear John the Baptist saying that. It is Pual that says that.

Vick: Oh, Paul.

Pastor Doug: I think that might be who you're talking about.

Vick: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Well it's easy... I've don that before myself. I got my John and Peter mixed up before. I've mixed up Paul and Moses and all kinds of things. But when Paul said to be absent from the body's to be present with the Lord, that's really talking about when we die, the next thing we're aware of is the presence of the Lord and the resurrection because when I say a person dies, they have no consciousness of time. And for them, it's a moment of a twinkling of an eye. And if you die in a safe condition, the next thing you know, you're in the presence of the Lord. It's the resurrection. So the Scripture's consistent.

Vick: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. and you know Paul and Jesus referred to death as asleep.

Vick: Okay. Okay. Can I ask you another one real quick?

Pastor Doug: Sure.

Vick: It was a fast one.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, that was a short one. You can get 2 for the price of one.

Pastor Doug: Okay. Unfortunately, I had a buddy of mine a few days ago take his own life. Now, I'm really angry with him. I feel bad for him but I'm a little angry with him. I think it was just... I don’t know if there was a way out he was thinking or... Is he lost?

Pastor Doug: Well, you know what? I can't make a blanket statement that says that everybody that commits suicide is lost.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Pastor Doug: I think there are exceptions. Generally speaking, when a person takes their life they have lost hope and faith. And you know there might be medical conditions or some kind of you know chemical imbalance and God knows those things but typically, it represents a person has lost faith and the last act of their life is basically self-murder. And you know we need hope and we need faith so it's not a good indicator. So it's one of the most discouraging things for Christians to grapple with if there's someone they know and they love that takes their own life. Our folks really struggle with that. But even if there is hope--

Vick: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: --we have to let the Lord judges. He looks on the heart--

Vick: Right. It just leaves you a lot of questions and unanswered questions you know.

Pastor Doug: But I know what you mean. I've got a friend that killed himself and I was angry too because he left behind his wife and his daughter and they were in so much pain. I was mad because I thought it was a very selfish thing for him to do. He was having, going through a bad experience and he took his life and he wasn't thinking about anyone but himself.

Vick: Right.

Pastor Doug: And so I know what you mean about being angry.

Vick: Okay. Well I think guys--

Pastor Doug: It's a natural thing. All right. Hey, God bless Bryan.

Jean Ross: Alright. We've got John who is listening in New York. John, welcome to the program.

John: Hi. Good evening pastor.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

John: I thank you for your extensive knowledge of the Scripture. You've given some spiritual answers to many questions.

Pastor Doug: Well, thank you John. The longer I live the more I know I don’t know. But I appreciate your compliment.

John: Some weeks ago, maybe it was going 2 months ago, someone called and ask a lot of-- if the Christian God and some other gods, I can't remember what religion they were referring to but I don’t think that you get a definitive answer with regards in to the Christian's (order?) because any other religion has been nice, devious Christ can it have gone and they may be sincere in what they are saying in even in (inaudible 20:32). If Jews do not come to the Savior himself, they cannot go to God. And that is clear in Scriptures...

Pastor Doug: I agree with you. I agree with you that the divinity of Christ is crucial. It's a crucial truth. I wrote a book on it.

John: Okay.

Pastor Doug: So I certainly believe in it. I think in the question if I'm recalling clearly with--you know, we get hundreds of questions and I don't always remember the particulars--If I recall, I was trying to say that I would not judge that a person doesn't know God if they don't believe in the you know our view of the trinity. Now, there are some people--

John: (inaudible 0:21:19)

Pastor Doug: --that believes Jesus is divine. They think that God made Him divine but they think He was created billions of years ago. And I have problems with that but I would stop short of saying all those people are lost.

John: But why, pastor Doug? The Scripture is clear. Now this is the Scripture one of the Scriptures in some in one of the books of (inaudible 21:41) of John said, "And we know that the son of God has come and has given us an assurance,"--and I'm just quoting from memory.

Pastor Doug: Uhum.

John: "As we are in him even in his son Jesus Christ, this is the true God and eternal life." And so God the son, I mean God Himself, it's a total mystery. So God must be revealed. God must be known as He is revealed.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

John: So I don't think we should isolate on this question. Some things are hard in the Scripture to truly understand. A lot of things about God are not capable of being understood by the human mind.

Pastor Doug: Well you and I are together, there is no question that Jesus is divine, Jesus is eternal God. I was just saying in my question that I'm not sure that you can say that those that aren't understand that are all automatically lost. Now John, have you read my book on "The Trinity?"

John: Beautiful.

Pastor Doug: Well I'd be happy to send you a copy if you haven't seen it.

John: But pastor let me say this. You are saying that you cannot, you would not say but the Scripture does say that if you do not believe on the Son, you cannot have eternal life. You must believe Jesus who He said He is and who the prophets have all would said that he was that he is.

Pastor Doug: Well, I think that there are things about God that a person may not understand that doesn't disqualify them from salvation because the Bible tells us that God is past finding out so I agree that they need to know Jesus to be saved. Some may not understand the full extent of his divinity and in my answer I said I'm not gonna judge them and say they are all lost but you and I agree that the divinity of Christ is a crucial truth.

Jean Ross: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: And if you don't have a copy of that book, you know "The Trinity, Is It Biblical?" we'll send you a free copy John. We got to try and get a couple more calls here. We're gonna have a break coming up in a few minutes.

Jean Ross: The number to call for that book is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book "The Trinity, Is It Biblical?" And that's 1-800-835-6747. We've got William who is calling from New York. William, you're on the air.

William: Yes. Hello. How you doing?

Pastor Doug: Doing well. How are you, William?

William: I'm okay as well. I have a question. My question circulates around cremation and I always thought cremation is not a good way to die. I'm just gonna site a few Biblical passages here.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

William: Isaiah 47:14, Malachi 4 verses 1 and 3, and Daniel chapter 7 verse 11, and I see when you die by fire, I receive sort of the type of judgment symbolically speaking in a sense you know I've notice the difference between physical and the spiritual fire but it just doesn’t seem to indicate a good way to go to me and I just want your thoughts on that.

Pastor Doug: Now what was the first verse in Isaiah?

William: Because I don't see no saint of holy prophet of God dying this way.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

William: I don't think anybody--

Pastor Doug: William.

William: Okay.

Pastor Doug: What was the--

William: It's supposed to be Isaiah chapter 47 verse 14.

Pastor Doug: Oh, 14 okay.

William: Malachi chapter --

Pastor Doug: "Behold, they shall be as stubble the fire shall burn them they shall not deliver themselves from the power of flames." In Malachi 4 says, "The day that comes, we'll burn them up. Leave them neither root nor branch." Yeah, that was acquainted with...

William: Daniel chapter 7 verse 11.

Pastor Doug: Okay. Yeah so while I agree that the traditional example of burial in the Bible is being buried, I think that we got to be careful not to say that anybody that is burned is automatically lost because many Christians... I was in India a few years ago and there were some riots and a Baptist Minister and his 2 boys were surrounded by some Hindu radicals in their car which was doused with gasoline and they burned them and wouldn't let them out. That doesn't mean that they're lost. And you know so being cremated is certainly--Who would want to be burned alive?--but a lot of murders were burned alive and it's not gonna prevent them from being resurrected so it's not an issue of if a person dies by burning. Does that mean they can't be saved? A lot of folks have been burned at the stake for their faith, you know what I mean?

William: Okay. Right.

Pastor Doug: My choice of burial would be traditional burial but I think we got to be careful about saying that those that choose cremation--of course they are not being burned alive. Their bodies have been burned afterwards. Now if a person dies and they're buried, what happens to their body after about a year?

William: It begins to decay.

Pastor Doug: Unless they've gone to some kind of extreme measures, it just turns back in to ashes and dust that's what God says. All that cremation is doing is sort of accelerates the process instead of a person being put in the box in the ground, they're put in an urn on the shelf or [laughs] wherever they put (inaudible 27:02). So yeah I agree. There are a couple of examples in the Bible, let's say, people that were cremated one was Jonathan, the son of King Saul. So but you're right, if you're gonna go by biblical example, principally, it's traditional burial but I don’t think we can say those that are burned to death that it means that they can't be saved somehow.

William: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Hey--

William: Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: -- I appreciate it very much, William. No problem. Glad for your question. And you might enjoy our booklet on death, "Are the Dead Really Dead?" It talks about some of those same issues.

Jean Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747 that is the resource line. You can ask the study guide, "Are the Dead Really Dead?" We'll be happy to send that out to you.

Pastor Doug: Friends, don't forget we're just gonna take a break in a moment. Go to Amazing Facts website, a lot more there. You're listening to Bible Answers Live.

Jean Ross: Pastor Doug, there's some great websites that we like to mention halfway through the program here. One that we've mentioned before but it's worth mentioning again is the one on Bible Prophecy, or

Pastor Doug: That's right. There's just so much information there. A matter of fact, in some ways, that website is an intersection of many of our wonderful websites in this time of year when we get to the month of October. I guess I just dated this program. Some people starts asking a lot of questions with Halloween and death and they got all the tomb stones on their front yard and... We have a website. And you'll find a lot of information there. It's called, One more call, Watch the video. We’ll be back in a moment.


Pastor Doug: We're back friends. This is Bible Answers Live and we do have a couple lines open. if you have a Bible question then just call 1-800-463-7297. If you weren't ready for that, you just dial 1-800-GOD-SAYS and those buttons will get you to our stations with your Bible questions. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: My name is Jean Ross. Pastor Doug, we're gonna go straight back to the phone lines. We've got Bruce in Hidden Valley Lake, California. Bruce, welcome to the program.

Bruce: Hey thanks. I'm Bruce. First time I ever saw you guys like live streaming. I love this. Hey you know what? First of all, I wanted to be buried in Mount (inaudible 31:08). I told my children to drop me down the volcano. There's fire down there.

[Pastor Doug laughs]

Bruce: And that would be my urn. And I don't know if it's legal but my son said he could do it later tonight. He's (inaudible 31:18).

Pastor Doug: Oh, the helicopter would be expensive though.

Bruce: [laughs] (Inaudible 31:21) to carry. But this is the real stuff. Hey you know Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, you know they’re talking about John the Baptist--and anyway, Matthew 21:25 is a good example--but the baptism of John was it from--never to put a question mark there-- and then it says from Heaven or from men but I mean all these people talking about it. Nobody ever answered if it was from heaven, which I think it was. Was it a messenger? I mean Elizabeth giving birth to John, the cousin of Jesus, and then Gabriel coming to Mary, the mother of Jesus, do you think it was a message like that could explain what his ministry should be and he should eat locusts and honey to stay alive? [Laughs] I mean it's a curious thing.

Pastor Doug: Well I--

Bruce: I think it's very important.

Pastor Doug: I think that the obvious answer is that John the Baptist, his baptism was of heaven. When they said of men, did they mean that he was just motivated by himself or maybe the Essenes at the Dead Sea influenced him? But when you read what Christ said, he said "There's no greater prophet than John." And then Jesus said that John,--actually I think John the Baptist, he is the fulfillment of that prophecy in Isaiah about the voice crying in the wilderness-- and so everything both in the old testament, the new testament tells us that John the Baptist--a matter fact Christ also says in Matthew 11 that if you can receive it, John the Baptist was the spiritual manifestation of Elijah that he came with the message and the spirit of Elijah--so the baptism of John was heaven's sent. Final probably endorsement is Christ asked to be baptized by John so it was heaven. God said when John baptized Jesus, He spoke from heaven, "This is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased." And so... Good question, Bruce. I think that it was from Heaven and even his diet obviously, it was a simple diet but he was setting the example of simplicity in his dress and in his diet. I don’t think -- well I hope not--that the locust may have not been grasshoppers, while that is a clean food biblically. It may have been the locust bean which is equivalent of like our carob that he was eating. It does grow there. So appreciate your question Bruce.

Jean Ross: We've got Eric who's listening in Queens, New York. Eric, welcome to the program.

Eric: Hi gentlemen. By the way, it takes a lot to yank me away from the World Series [Pastor Doug laughs] even if the Yankees aren't involved but I wanted to talk to you.

Pastor Doug: Hey that was the highest compliment that we've had in a long time.

[Jean Ross laughs]

Eric: Well I wanted to talk with you again. Not to follow up on what we talked about before although I still got a (bone?) to pick with you about that. But let’s move ahead on this simple question, I think maybe the broadest question we could raise on a Sunday night. Where is the dividing line between the literal and the metaphorical in Scripture? I mean neither of you guys, I suspect, believed that Adam and Eve are real people but both of you are very confident that John the Baptist was a real person who we could figure out what day he died, that would be the day he died. That'd be terrific but we don’t know that. You don’t doubt that he was pastor. So exactly where is that dividing line? And please, please don’t tell me it's between old and New Testament.

Pastor Doug: You're gonna probably dismissed me at this point. I heard you assumed that we don’t believe Adam and eve are literal. At one time I didn't. I do now. But there are metaphors in the Bible, Eric. Let me give you an example of a metaphor when the Lord tells us that you know he's gonna separate the wheat from the tares, he's using a parable. And he's speaking in metaphors comparing the seed (with the lost?) so those are metaphors.

Eric: (inaudible 35:18).

Pastor Doug: Adam and Eve are not fables I think that's the word you're looking for.

Eric: No. No. Just let me clear it. Do you think that some guy named Methuselah lived to be 969 years old?

Pastor Doug: Absolutely. Yeah, I don't have any problem with that at all.

Eric: Okay. Well we just (inaudible 35:35) there but so then you would say the lines... you would say that line that I'm trying to etch out here, you would say that line begins with in the beginning, God created heavens and earth.

Pastor Doug: I take it based on your tone of your voice, you don't believe that God created the heaven and Earth either.

Eric: Well, once you know a little... You don't even need to know a lot. Once you know a little about things like quantum mechanics and chemistry and what have you, it's a stretch. It's a real stretch at best.

Pastor Doug: Well, how would you explain that man seems to have about 70% more brain than he's ever capable of using in his lifetime? Why would man ever evolve more brain than he can use? And--

Eric: I think... it's interesting you say 70%. The number I usually hear--they usually say we only use 10% of our brains. I hear a lot of motivational speech.

Pastor Doug: That was an old figure that they've repeated for years with a little more study.

Eric: My understanding... I'm actually looking--it's in the (inaudible 36:44). So I looked in to this question. And more precisely I've read somebody who has looked in to it, several somebody but one person in particular, Isaac (Asimov?) got a perfect explanation for how these sorts of things come down. I mean there's little technical to get it on in here, Doug, but these things are explainable. Sure.

Pastor Doug: Well, you know what I find problems explaining is how you can get organization and design and symmetry from chaos. Now I used to believe in evolution and just after a while I just could not bring myself to believe that you can get all the interacting systems and organization and design you can get plants that cannot live without insects and insects that cannot live without plants evolving at the same time. And Pastor Ross, you know what the real biggest conundrum for me was is how you could get single cells that would reproduce by just simply dividing, splitting two and somewhere along the way, the genders male and female needed to evolve when they could not reproduce without cooperating. There's nothing in the evolutionary scheme that explains how that could be efficient. So (inaudible 37:54).

Jean Ross: Well this is just something on Science too pastor dough, you know there's a lot of discussion--

Pastor Doug: And by the way Eric, we do have a book-- I'm thinking about our book on the "Mysteries of Creation" or "Wonders of Creation" that... Or do you know what could be better? You got a question here Eric, we welcome your questions. You have questions on is there anything left we can trust about the Bible, is the Bible true we've got a lesson that's filled with facts. These are real facts that I think you'll accept on statistically why the Scriptures are unique book and I think trustworthy.

Jean Ross: Uhum. To receive that, give us a call on our resource line. That’s 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, well, the study guide "Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?"

Pastor Doug: You were saying something like--

Jean Ross: You know I was gonna say with reference to science, you know you have different scientific so called discoveries and yet, it seems as though in the scientific community, there isn't a complete harmony with how to interpret these various scientific discoveries. Some would look at some type of discovery and say "Well, this supports the biblical record. Somebody else would look at that and say, "Well, this supports evolutionary thought." So it seems as though what lenses you're looking at the scientific information at influences how you're gonna interpret it.

Pastor Doug: Yup. Absolutely. I've been on both sides of those lenses. And believing that everything is just a spontaneous accident at least for one thing--no purpose in life. There is no purpose if there is no God. You know I'm not one who believes in conspiracy theories. I believed the World Trade Center was slammed by terrorist. I don't believe it was a Government plot but there's one conspiracy out there that I think the most cleverly orchestrated conspiracy I've ever seen and its conspiracy in the educational industry to basically perpetrate the idea that there is no God and to really ridicule biblical scenario. But anyway, I think the greatest evidence is in the way it changes lives. But we're gonna, Eric... Sorry. Welcome your call and back again sometime but we're gonna try and get some other callers.

Jean Ross: We've got Charlie who is listening in Canada. Charlie, welcome to the program.

Charlie: Thank you for taking my call. This is my first time calling. I have a question. I was watching a YouTube video and it scared me dearly. And I hope may be you can clarify some things for me. My question is actually the hell. It's (inaudible 40:31) maybe a 3-part question. My first question is: Is hell an actual literal place? Is it--

Pastor Doug: (Fine?).

Charlie: Is someone actually know that we're there? My first question. My second question--

Pastor Doug: There is. Yeah go ahead. Ask all three and let me see if I can remember and--

Charlie: Okay.

Pastor Doug: --summarize my answer.

Charlie: My second question is if God created Hell for the angels and for Satan, why would he send--because only God can send people to hell--why would God send there if God hasn't shown Himself for 2000 years and being you know mankind, we kind of need some sort of something from God.

Pastor Doug: Some kind of evidence Right?

Charlie: And we haven't (seen?) anything from God lately.

Pastor Doug: What's the third part?

Charlie: My third part is once somebody dies, say an unbeliever, does he go straight to hell? Or does he wait for a judgment?

Pastor Doug: All right, let me give you--we've only got 4 minutes per caller so let me give you--

Charlie: Okay.

Pastor Doug: --as quick an answer as I can. First, people do not go to hell if they're lost right when they die because for one thing, the judgment hasn't happened yet. Jesus is clear that the judgment is in the last days and people aren't rewarded until the Lord comes and that's in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. There is a reward for the righteous and the wicked. Christ said the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves are gonna hear his voice. They that have done good will come forth to the resurrection of life they that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation. And those are the words of Jesus. Hell does not burn forever and ever as some have said. The Bible's clear that fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours the wicked. It says they're consumed. It says they'd perished. They are burned up. They turn to ashes. There's another you tube video you need to watch and it's called... Well, it's in

Jean Ross: Go to Hell Truth and see--

Pastor Doug: That you can see--

Jean Ross: --the website.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, you'll see a YouTube video there at Let's try to remember the other name for it. But...

Charlie: (inaudible 42:49).

Pastor Doug: Yeah, you really need to look. Go to It's one word, The information there in a very biblical way explains hell. There is punishment for the wicked but it's not what has been taught through the middle ages. This is all straight from the Bible. And I think you'll like it.

Charlie: So hell is not forever then?

Pastor Doug: Excuse me. No.

Charlie: Hell is not forever?

Pastor Doug: No. People don’t' burn forever and ever.

Charlie: So where do people go?

Pastor Doug: Well, Bible says--

Charlie: (inaudible 43:17) Hitler as an example.

Pastor Doug: Well, everyone is--

Charlie: Where would Hitler go after 10,000 years or…

Pastor Doug: Well, he's probably gonna burn longer than anybody or next to the Devil. He's gonna burn a long time, I would say but I'm not even his judge.

Charlie: Okay but after (inaudible 43:32). It does--

Pastor Doug: Jesus said...

Charlie: --not matter how long it is.

Pastor Doug: Well, Jesus said in the new Earth, all things are made new. There is no more pain or sorrow or crying. The former things are passed away. All things are made new. And so the wicked who are burned, it says they're burned up. And in Ezekiel, it says "It never shall may be anymore." And so they're destroyed. Christ said "Do not fear him who can hurt your body but cannot hurt your soul, rather fear him who will destroy soul and body in hell." Those are the words of Jesus, by the way that's Matthew chapter 10, "Fear him who will destroy soul and body."

Charlie: Okay. So then is heaven forever?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, heaven is forever.

Charlie: This doesn’t make sense. Why would heaven be forever but not hell?

Pastor Doug: Well have you ever heard the verse John 3:16?

Charlie: "For God so love the world." Yeah.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. Great. Let me read it real quick, “For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him would have everlasting life and not perish.” So you have 2 choices: You would not perish but have everlasting life. And so the wicked, what do they do? Perish. What do the righteous get? Everlasting life. God doesn't give everlasting life to the lost. You see what I'm saying?

Charlie: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: This is what Jesus said. So please look at--

Charlie: I don't (inaudible 44:53) where they go.

Pastor Doug: Well, where were you before you were born?

Charlie: I was nowhere.

Pastor Doug: That's where they go. I mean they cease to be. God said to Adam and Eve, "In the day you sin, you'll die." And the devil said you won’t really die. And so that lie of the devil that you're a immortal, never in the Bible does it say that people are immortal. There’s only 2 people that are called immortal in the Bible and they're both God. So please look at the website. We got to take another call. It's called Please I hope you'll look at that Charlie. You'll find some encouragement I think.

Jean Ross: We've got Ricky who's listening in Minnesota. Ricky, welcome to the program.

Ricky: Hi. I have a question about angels.

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Ricky: I'm wondering if there's 3 different kinds of angels that ministers to us like ministering, recording and guardian? Or is they're just a guardian?

Pastor Doug: Well, you know that's a good question. I've actually pondered that while I was preaching before that we know the functions of the angels that at least the ones that come to earth. Some are somehow recording what's happened ‘cause you know there's an account given on everything. And some are guarding. There’s only one verse that relate-- well I guess there is several verses talk about guardian angels who give the angels charged over thee. And then it talks about... Jesus said, "The angels of these children behold the face of my Father in Heaven." It talks about a band of angels around Jacob. So yeah, you do have angels guarding. And then what was the third thing that we said?

Ricky: A clearing and there was a ministering.

Pastor Doug: Well, angels come to and from God to help answer prayers. We often say God answered my prayer but when you pull aside the veil we often see angels are there being used by God to answer the prayers.

Ricky: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: And so they’re doing a broad spectrum of things to protect--I guess that's part of guarding--but also to provide. An angel gives water and food to Elijah when he's running through the dessert. So that's a ministering spirit.

Jean Ross: You know, we have a verse in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 14 that summarizes the work of angels. It says, "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who will inherit salvation." So the angels minister to those who are trusting God, those who have chosen Christ to be their savior.

Pastor Doug: So yeah, I don’t know if they have different kinds of uniforms or if you've got a ministering spirit that also do some recording. And do you know what they got in police cars right now? All these police cars have video cameras running all the time so whatever the policeman does, the cars recorded. So maybe the angels--

Ricky: So you don’t really know for sure about (inaudible 47:39). I supposed when we get to heaven, we'll be able to find those things out.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I'm just happy to know that they are there watching over us. And my angels probably got gray hair right now watching over me. But hey we do have a lesson that talks about angels. And it's called "Angel Messengers from Outer Space." We'll be happy to send you, Ricky.

Jean Ross: The number is 1-800-835-6747 that is the resource line. And you can ask for the study guide, "Angel Messengers from Outer Space." We'll send you that study guide. Donn is listening in Tennessee on the internet. Donn, welcome to the program.

Donn: Thank you Pastor Doug. I've been reading Revelations 5 and the way that I understand this is these 24 elders are Kings or Sons of God from other planets or other world and but if you go to 9 to chapter 5, in verse 9--

Pastor Doug: "They (sang?) a new song."

Donn: Right and it says, "And have redeemed us to God your blood," then we go to 10 at the end it says, "And we shall rain on the Earth." And I don't understand that. How will they redeem by Jesus? And how will they rain on Earth if they're from other worlds?

Pastor Doug: You know it's funny you should mention this, I just preached on this, Pastor Doug, 2 weeks ago. We preached in Revelation chapter 5. Actually if you read the context not only are the 24 elders saying "You have redeemed us" but the 4 living creatures surrounding the throne are also saying "You have redeemed us." And we know that the 4 living creatures are spoken of a seraphim, the angels. You're reading from the King James here. And King James is based upon the (texter's?) receptors which is the New Testament back in 1665. It was put together by somebody called Erasmus. And he used primarily Greek text for the New Testament from the Byzantine set of text but when he came to the section of Revelation, he used parts of the Latin Vulgate which is the Latin translation of the Greek text. He didn’t have available to him the Greek in the Byzantine text so he actually used portion of the latter Vulgate. Most scholars would recognized that a better translations for these particular passages, you have redeemed them versus you have redeemed us.

Donn: Redeemed them?

Jean Ross: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: Yeah in the original language it is used in the word to "them" probably...

Jean Ross: It's used them not us.

Donn: So are there some--

Pastor Doug: As a matter of fact, Pastor Ross there might even be some translations. I've got about 10 on my desktop right now.

Jean Ross: Actually, you might even see in the margin of the King James that will give an alternate translation and in that little saying ‘you have redeemed them’ versus ‘you have redeemed us.’ So this particular part of revelation comes from the Latin Vulgate and in the Latin Vulgate they translated it as you have redeemed us but all the other Greek manuscripts that date back even older than the Vulgate it say you have redeemed them.

Donn: What about on 10, “Which shall rain on Earth?”

Jean Ross: Saying “They shall rain on Earth,” all of the ‘us’ is translated to the ‘them’ and remember it's the four living creatures that's also singing.

Pastor Doug: Now the ‘us’ and the ‘we…’

Jean Ross: Are translated to the ‘them.’

Pastor Doug: them and them

Donn: Okay. Okay.

Pastor Doug: I know that's one of those... That is a little new one so it does make a difference whether who are those 24 elders because obviously if they're redeemed from Earth, they're not leaders of unfallen worlds.

Donn: The elders are from Earth?

Pastor Doug: No. No. I'm saying if they were redeemed from Earth then they can't be the leaders.--

Donn: Yeah. Yeah, right.

Pastor Doug: --of unfallen worlds.

Donnie: Right. Right. It wouldn't make sense. That’s why I'm trying to figure it out.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. That’s good question.

Ricky: Okay. I thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thank you very much. You made us dig deep. I’m glad you preached on that a couple of weeks ago.

Jean Ross: You know just for a say, it says in the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb each having (hops?) so you have the 4 living creatures that are seen in verse 9. "You are worthy to take the scroll and open it for you were slain and you have redeemed us." A better translation there would be ‘You have redeemed them to God by your blood.’

Pastor Doug: Uhum. All right. Hey, we appreciate your question. Who's next?

Jean Ross: All right we have Tamara who is listening from Washington. Tamara welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug: Hey Pastor Ross, Tamara.

Tamara: Thanks for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Hey can you hold one second please?

Tamara: Sure.

Pastor Doug: If Eric is still listening, the new Revised Standard Version says "them."

Jean Ross: Uhum. And there's a number of other...

Pastor Doug: Yeah I was just looking at some other versions.

Jean Ross: A newer translation.

Pastor Doug: Sorry that's it, a delayed answer. [Laughs] Thank you, Tamara. You're on now.

Tamara: Okay. I'm looking at Leviticus 1:1. I'm sorry. That's 9:21

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Tamara: I'm wondering what a wave offering is.

Pastor Doug: Oh all right. Well they had a number of offerings where they would show thanks to God for his bounty and during the time of harvest they would wave an offering. It's usually a sheaf of grain before the Lord. At sometimes they could even wave an offering that might be from the flock but they would present something before the Lord and it was basically to thank them.

Jean Ross: And of course it has significance in giving the first fruits back to God recognizing God as being the source of all of the blessings.

Tamara: Okay.

Pastor Doug: So they had a wave sheaf that was a sheaf of grain or it would be a sack of grain and then they present that to the Lord. There were offerings that were given of oil, of flower, I even think they had one of salt.

Tamara: Uhum.

Pastor Doug: Of some of the sacrifices and so the bounties of the Earth, they would present it as a way of thanks before the Lord especially during the harvest feast.

Jean Ross: And the name 'wave,' they literally would wave the offering before the alter. And that's where the name came from.

Pastor Doug: Yup.

Tamara: Okay, ‘cause it said on here the breast and the right shoulder of Aaron were a wave offering is like (53:59)?

Pastor Doug: Yes that were some of the offerings were grains. The wave sheaf was a grain offering. Some of the offerings were from the flock and so (inaudible 54:08) is talking about one of the offerings of it was a lamb or goat. I don’t remember.

Tamara: Oh, okay.

Pastor Doug: So it's just waving something before the Lord to thank him.

Tamara: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And they just present and perform. Appreciate your question.

Tamara: Saw that before, I said what? [Laughs]

Pastor Doug: Yeah, they had a whole variety of sacrifices to thank the Lord for his bounty. Appreciate your call. I don't know if we have time for another half a question. We've got one minute.

Jean Ross: Well, let's try a quick one. We got Daren calling from South Carolina. Darren, we got a minute. What's your question?

Darren: Yeah. How you doing?

Pastor Doug: Good.

Darren: My question was... Halloween is coming up and a lot of the churches are doing harvest festivals but then in the harvest festival they could come dress in costumes and they even have some kind of going around and getting candies from different like maybe a car trunk.

Pastor Doug: So are you wondering is that kind of a moral dilemma for a Christian to compromise that way?

Darren: Right.

Pastor Doug: That's a good question. You know I actually just talked about this a couple weeks ago on our church. We were talking about ghosts. And I think we got a website posted there where I dressed some of these compromises. I think the Scripture said we should avoid the appearance of evil and that we should have no part in the fruitful, unfruitful works of the (inaudible 55:25).

Jean Ross: Ephesians 5:11.

Pastor Doug: Ephesians. Thank you very much. Ephesians 5:11. Who is it? Darren, hopefully that will help a little. Hey friends were out (of here?) your show. Make sure you check out That’s our website. Help us stay on the air. God bless until next week.

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