Old Seeds, New Life

Date: 04/11/2004 
It is amazing how seeds can remain viable and remain intact for millennium. The oldest known viable seeds were found in 1954 in a lemon grove in Canada’s frozen Yukon.
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Hello friends this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? It is amazing how seeds can remain viable and remain intact for millennium. The oldest known viable seeds were found in 1954 in a lemon grove in Canada’s frozen Yukon. The frozen borough which was buried in silt and sediment was at least 4,200 years old. The arctic lemon seeds were found with hunting remains and they were placed there and kept in favorable condition and several seeds had sprouted within 48 hours. One of the plants later bloomed.

And then there are the water lily seeds that they knew had been buried in a bog near Tokyo for more than 3,000 years. Scientists also discovered seeds from the oriental lotus plant that had germinated some 3,000 years after their dispersal. Other examples of other old seeds that had sprouted include a 3,400 year old bean from the tomb of King Tutankhamen. The seeds were originally found when the English Egyptologist, Howard Carter, excavated the famous King’s tomb in 1922. Among the many very rich objects in the tomb he found the stored bean seeds which had been asleep under the ground for 3,300 years.

He had it planted in the ground with rich soil with the sun, fertilizer and water and the ancient seeds sprouted and grew into healthy plants. It is astonishing how the Lord can design these seeds to store the essence of life for thousands of years and then spring into existence after they have been buried and then given a little light and water. The Bible teaches us that people can also find new life after being buried under the right conditions. Stay with us friends we are going to learn more as “Amazing Facts” brings you this edition of “Bible Answers Live”.


Pastor Doug: We are so thankful friends that you have tuned into “Bible Answers Live” on this special day. And it is a pleasure to be with you and if you have found the program for the first time we are a live, international, interactive Bible study that is going across the country and going across the ocean. You can participate by listening and praying for us as we attempt to answer the questions from the word of God and you can call in from North America and Canada it is a toll free number 1-800-GOD SAYS or 1-800-463-7297 and if you are listening t us from the internet around the world you can wire us on the internet with your questions at “Amazing Facts dot org”. We are very thankful you have tuned into the program and now is a good time to pick up your phone and give us your question. There are several lines open at 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor and Pastor Dick Debit as you will remember in Africa right now conducting an evangelistic meeting, but our familiar friend Pastor Art Brenner is sitting in the navigating chair and good to see you here again Pastor Art.

Pastor Art: Thank you and it is good to be here tonight, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: We are looking forward to on tonight’s program on this special day that many are commemorating the resurrection of our Lord and why don’t you help us out by launching with a prayer.

Pastor Art: Sure. Let us pray. Dear heavenly Father we thank you for this opportunity to be able to speak with those in radio land and be able to share the word of God. We pray that the power of the Holy Spirit will be with us as we share with others the truth of Jesus Christ. So bless us tonight in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Art: Doug that was really fascinating how seeds were able to store the essence of life and you spoke about so many different kinds of seeds. The locust seeds, the water lily seeds and the oriental lotus seeds and stored bean seeds and I imagine this has some spiritual significance as well.

Pastor Doug: It is amazing to me for one thing that it seems to refute evolution that God had designed something that would last so long and have the potential to preserve life and yet be dormant. And not just for a few month for a few years, but for centuries and for millennium and just water and a little warmth and bingo. It has actually there are species of plants that they thought were extinct and when they were once again exposed to the right conditions the whole species came back to life. I think that the seeds had been dormant for hundreds of thousands of years. But, it also made me think of where Jesus said something like baptism where baptism is a symbolism of death, burial and resurrection when our Lord rose some nineteen hundred and seventy three years ago and even beyond that Jesus said that except a see die when it is placed in the ground it can’t live again. And I will submit to you friend that everyone in the kingdom must die first. We must die that spiritual death where we are crucified with Christ. If we are alive and remain when the Lord returns we must die first so we can be born again. If we are born again before we die to the old ways then we have got two matures warring with each other and you have got two masters that are clamoring for the throne. And so friends if you have not experienced that new birth then we’d invite you to make your decision tonight to accept Jesus. Baptism is a ceremony that Christ gave us that commemorates the resurrection and may be you have some questions on the new birth or on the subject of baptism. We have some special offers for you.

Pastor Art: That’s right Doug we have an offer tonight and it is our Bible study and it is called “Buried and Forgotten by God”. And you can get a hold of this resource b calling our resource line1-800-835-6747. Again that is 1-800-835-6747 ask for “Buried and Forgotten”. You know it is very interesting that the spiritual life is just the opposite of our natural life. We have to die first in order to live when in though in our natural life to love and then eventually to grow old and die. You know that is why what you said is really interesting. You know I have some good news here why our

Pastor Doug: You know I have some good news here while our friends are jotting down that number and calling in for the free resource tonight. I just wanted to share that we have new stations that have come onboard with the Amazing Facts Program. And we are thrilled to announce that we now have four stations that we would lie to welcome. We have KELB 105.1 FM in Lake Charles, Louisiana. Welcome and to anyone listening on that wants to call we will give you preferential treatment. We also have WNED 12.30 AM in Worshire, Pennsylvania and again we’d love to hear from you. We have WPAK 14.90 AM in Farmville, Virginia and radio LYRA 98.1 FM near San Jose in Costa Rico and we’d love to have these stations call in and it is always encouraging when we see how God is blessing and the program expands.

Pastor Art: We have several callers on our lines, but before we go to our callers we have a couple of internet questions.

Pastor Doug: Alright.

Pastor Art: The first question is was Jesus ever in hell and if so would Scripture prove it?

Pastor Doug: There is in the old apostles statement where it and this is not in the Bible this is a statement of faith that is uttered by many churches where they say that Jesus descended into hell. The word hell in the general classical sense in the bible simply means the grave. And when it says that thou wilt not leave thy soul in hell you know, that Old Testament Seoul means I will not leave him in the grave. Jesus did not go to hell as some, people think to preach and to give the lost a second chance and that really is opposed to everything the Bible says when it tells us this is the appointed time now, that this is the life that we need to choose Christ and if we don’t then after that the judgment. It is based on this Scripture Pastor Art in 1 Peter Chapter 3 it tells us that Christ also suffered for the sins of the just and the unjust that He might bring us to God being put to death I the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. By which He went and preached t the Spirits unto the prisons. It was a wake Jesus went down to preach to the spirits in prison that must have been down in hell and it is simply saying that through the same spirit that quickened Jesus He preached tot those that were in prison by sin back in the days of Noah. And if you want to know what the Bible writer is talking about Peter is referring to Genesis Chapter 6 where God says that my Spirit will not always strive with man that is found in verse 3. So Jesus did not go to hell to preach to people to give them a second chance. If He did then all us evangelists may as well just pack up because we could never do as well as Jesus did if He waited for them to go to hell and the He’ll preach to them there. But, now is the time this is our life and friends if you don’t choose Jesus in this life then you don’t get reincarnated and you don’t get another chance.

Pastor Art: Amen and then our next question is a question that I think is really interesting and is apropos for the time that we’re celebrating this season of Easter. It says who raised Jesus from the dead? Did Jesus raise Himself or did God the Father raise Jesus?

Pastor Doug: You know it can—if you look on the surface it can look like Jesus was killed and the angel came and rolled away the stone. And that somehow the angel or the Father raised Him, but really it was a corporate effort of the Father and the Son. Let me read this to you friends from John Chapter 15: 10 these are the words of our Lord Himself. “As the Father knows me even so know I the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep.” 17 “Therefore doeth my Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it up again.” And nothing can be clearer than those statements and then when you add to that when Jesus said in the Garden when Peter was going to liberate the Lord with a sword the Lord said I can call 12,000 angels if I want to. He sacrificed His life and He allowed the devil to use people as the instrument. But, Jesus gave His life. Nobody could tackle God Almighty and tie Him up. So it was a choice and that makes the act of love even more profound. So He chose to give up His life.

Pastor Art: Amen. Now there is a second part of this question and I think it is a relatively new question and it says when Jesus died did His Divinity also die?

Pastor Doug: That is a good question. Some people assume that if Jesus really died on the cross and that we must believe that He did friends and the reason is the penalty for sin is death. Whatever you think paying for that penalty or death is hat is what Jesus did. And Jesus did for our sins. The Bible is very clear. But, does that mean that His divinity died? Well I’d answer that by saying when a King leaves the country does he stop being their King? And in the Bible—well there are just many, many parables where Jesus talks about a King that goes away to receive another kingdom. Then he comes back and deals with those who were in charge while he was gone. He did not lay aside His majesty or His Monarchy when He left. Christ did not lose His divinity and still retained His office, but He died and until His resurrection He was immobilized. There have even been cases where the President when he goes to sleep at night, does he stop being President? So that would be my answer. And now Jesus did lay aside His divinity when He became a man in that He was human, but He didn’t cease to have the office of God.

Pastor Art: Well let’s go to our phone lines and we are going to go to Ron in Lancaster, California and Ron you are on the air.

Ron: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi Ron you are calling on the internet, right?

Ron: Yeah and thank you for taking my call again. He has risen. He has risen indeed.

Pastor Doug: Well we are happy to have you. Amen.

Ron: My question is kind of propos for your free offer in John 3 regarding Nicodemis when he came to Jesus at night. I guess that is the first reference to Nick at night. But, my first question is found in John5: verses 3 through 6 when Jesus said to Nicodemis, “Most surely I say to you that unless one is born of the water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of blood which is flesh and now that which is born of the spirit is spirit do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again. My question is I heard Pastor speak and say this is referring to when it says born of the water it is referring to baptism. And I can’t reconcile that with Scripture.

Pastor Doug: Well let me tell you what the two views are. Then I will explain why and I have heard both sides. Then I will tell you what I believe. On verse 6 where it says that which is born of flesh is flesh as people assume the water is talking about the first reference of the water is the sac that the baby is in. He that is born of water that is the flesh birth and then there is the spirit birth. I respectfully disagree because I think when Jesus says we must be born of the water and the spirit that because John says here that I baptize you in water, but the one who comes after will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and the fire. So he is helping us to understand what Jesus is talking about. Water baptism is something you can choose a human can choose that. Spirit baptism I have no choice in that it is God’s timing. And so there are both baptisms that are necessary. And one more example hat I might give you is that the children of Israel were baptized in the water of Red Sea and they were baptized in the fire of the pillar. Remember the pillar of fire? We need both baptisms. And then Paul compares the Red Sea into water baptism in 1 Corinthians 10 and so when you do a little detective work I am inclined to think that that water there I Christ’s statement is not talking about human birth. Because otherwise Christ would be saying that unless you are born of a woman and into the Spirit well I don’t know anyone that is not born of a woman. So it would be kind of redundant to say that and so I think He is saying that unless you are born of water baptism your choice and spirit baptism God’s choice then you need both choices of commitment before you have a marriage.

Ron: Okay s what I am getting from you is that water baptism is part of being born again and a spiritual rebirth?

Pastor Doug: Yes it is.

Ron: Okay I have been studying this and I have a cross reference in Titus 3: 5 where it says, “Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saves us through the washing and regeneration of the renewing of the Holy Spirit.” Now I interpret that as exactly what he is saying is the water which is flesh and that which is flesh is flesh and the spirit is the spirit and so born again is the spiritual birth and the flesh and the water are the physical birth.

Pastor Doug: Well I don’t see any conflict between Titus and what I said. I believe he is talking about that we are washed and of course Peter refers to the water baptism and says whereby that doth save us. We are not saved by works as in that water baptism, but that choice as coming as we are allows Him He doesn’t force us to be saved it allows Him then to wash us by His grace.

Pastor Art: And Ron we want to keep in mind that water baptism is just an outward symbol of you acceptance to what Christ has done.

Ron: Amen.

Pastor Art: And in Ephesians it also says the washing of the water by the words. So you can also make a reference again that we are not born again of the corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible seed of the word of God in which the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts and we surrender our lives to Christ and in doing so showing our commitment we are showing our commitment through baptism.

Pastor Doug: Well I hope that helps you a little bit Ron.

Ron: Yeah. I mean if I interpret the other way you talked about earlier am I okay? You know I mean you may not agree with all of it.

Pastor Doug: Alright I can guarantee you there will be many people in heaven that believe that other view so if that is what you are wondering you know what I would recommend? We have another book besides our study guide that we are offering everyone on baptism. There is a little book that talks more on baptism that we will send you for free. That is written by Joe Crews and it is simply “Baptism is it Necessary?” It deals with those verses and would you like a copy of that?

Ron: Sure I would. I really would. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Well God bless and thank you for your call.

Pastor Art: Thank you Ron. Alright we are going to our next caller Marseille in Fresno, California. Marseille welcome.

Marseille: Hello

Pastor Doug: Marseille hi you are on the air.

Marseille: Hi. I was just wondering because I was talking to a person about Revelation when it talks the 144,000. I want to know what does that mean?

Pastor Doug: Yes. Go ahead.

Marseille: Because they say that only those people are going to go to heaven those 144,000.

Pastor Doug: The Bible does not say that. If you read in Revelation where it talks about the 144,000 it identifies them as the 12,000 of the twelve tribes and it is mentioned in Revelation 7: 3, but if you go down to verse 9 it says there is also a great multitude that no man can number that came out of the Great Tribulation. Now the Great Tribulation Jesus said is the end of the world. And so besides the 144,000 there is also a great multitude and I like to remind people that the 144,000 are something like last day disciples and apostles. Jesus specially trained and filled with His Spirit twelve individuals and to lead the church at the time of His first coming. They specifically represented the lost sheep in the House of Israel. In the last days he has twelve times twelve thousand that prepare people for His second coming that ago to the whole world. That and so much more, but they were not the only ones that were saved any more than the twelve apostles were the only ones that Jesus saved at His first coming. I have a book on this I will send to you for free if you like. Would you like that?

Marseille: Oh yes. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: If you call the resource number and I meant to tell Ron this call the resource number. When you ask for that book on baptism Ron and that number is 1-800-835-6747. And when you call Marseille say you’d like the book on 144,000. And that you are listening to “Amazing Facts” call at 1-800-835-6747.

Marseille: Thank you I asked God for you to give me the answer and you did.

Pastor Art: Thank you Marseille we are glad to be of help to you. We are going to Lorna in Liverpool, Pennsylvania and Lorna good evening from 3 ABN.

Lorna: Good evening.

Pastor Doug: And your question?

Lorna: Okay my question is that those who are translated ahead of time like Moses and Enoch and so forth and also those who God resurrected ahead of time the saints. Are they I heaven where they can see us and know what’s going on down here?

Pastor Doug: That is a good question.

Lorna: I mean I know they are in heaven, but can they see us and know what we are doing down here?

Pastor Doug: Well the Bible does tell us that angels and unfallen being s are watching to some degree. To some extent Paul says this world is a spectacle or a theater to the universe. Now I don’t think they are sitting around 24 hours a day eating popcorn watching the great controversy here on earth. My guess is that they did have some exposure because Moses and Elijah did come back and appear to Jesus. But, I would think that the misery on earth is so painful that they are longing simply for the day of redemption. But, keep in mind that this is something that I am now speaking a little bot over my head. The world and the time dimension that we live in is something I don’t believe we can fully comprehend. If God can take prophets into the future or into the past do you know what I am saying?

Lorna: Umm-hmm.

Pastor Doug: Yeah it is they are actually living in a place different than this darkness and a whole different world that I don’t think we can fully understand it. My guess is that they don’t look at those humans that have not been resurrected as being any way with what is happening here on earth.

Lorna: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Except like I said when Moses and Elijah came back and appeared t Jesus and there is a specific purpose for that. Okay?

Lorna: Right. Okay. Well thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: Alright and thank you a good question.

Pastor Art: Thank you Lorna. Alright let’s go to Michael at WMCA in Roosevelt, New York. Michael you are on the air.

Michael: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Welcome.

Michael: Okay my question is on the Ark of the Covenant. Is there any place that it is being held and who is holding it and what are the artifacts inside the Ark of the Covenant? And the second question is about the Noah’s Ark. I believe it has been found and have pieces of it have been found then where is it?

Pastor Doug: Okay two good questions. The big question first of all I will start with Noah’s Ark. The Bible indicates that the Ark settled after the major flood. On the Mountain of Ararat and they may have mistakenly said Mount Ararat and the Bible doesn’t always say that it is a range of mountains. It is no more specific about where it had settled. There have been a number of expeditions and I have several friends that have gone on expeditions in pursuit of Noah’s Ark. And none of them have come back with the tangible evidence, but we are still confident that it is there. Probably with some of the crucial information it is right on the border of Turkey and Russia and it is a very volatile area and it is patrolled by the military all the way around the mountain. It is very hard to get expeditions. It’s a high volcanic mountain that is covered a good part of the year with glaciers and some all year with glaciers. And the good part of the year is inaccessible. So it may be under the ice and it may have been crushed to smithereens by the moving glaciers that are very dynamic. And we don’t know. There has been no tangible evidence although people have come down the mountain with cypress wood that has been dated, but it usually dates to about the eighth century.

The Ark of the Covenant as far as we can tell from the Bible it tells us that Jeremiah the prophet foretold very clearly that Nebuchadnezzar was going to destroy the temple and carry away all the articles. And because all the articles are listed except the Ark it is believed that Jeremiah and some of the priests hid it somewhere in the city of Jerusalem somewhere before King Zedechiah and the Empire fell to King Nebuchadnezzar. It is never mentioned again when the articles were brought back from Babylon meaning the candlesticks and the temple furniture. The ark is never mentioned so as far as we know it was hidden by the Jews knowing the temple was going to fall they did not want their most sacred National Treasure to fall into the hands of the enemy. They hid it in a tomb and probably sealed it over probably somewhere around Jerusalem. Like a honeycomb. I have been there several times Michael and Jerusalem is honeycombed with tombs. And it could easily be hidden for two thousand years and nobody would know.

Michael: Now the Noah’s Ark would those glaciers and volcanic area be because of the floods that was in that area?

Pastor Doug: Well I think that the glaciers were largely caused by the radical change in climate that took place after the flood. There was an ice age it is true. There was an ice age that immediately followed the flood. That is why you find some of these Mastodons and animals that seem to be frozen almost instantly and some are still chewing ferns. The glaciers probably formed during that time. And so then the Ark would have been under it.

Michael: Oaky and is that guarded heavily because of what is going on today?

Pastor Doug: It is a political and powerful area. The aircraft that fly into the vicinity of Ararat can do surveillance on Russia or Turkey or on the other countries that surround it. It is right on the intersection of the three countries, but they do allow expeditions in there, but it is very carefully regulated. Well that is about all I can share because I have emptied my brain of anything I know on that.

Michael: Well thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Alright thanks Michael. Oh Pastor I don’t think we have time—before our break friends we need…

Pastor Art: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: … I don’t mean to be rude, but it gives us again a great opportunity to tell you about the website. Ninety-nine per cent of what we have to give you is not on the radio program. It is at our website and through our resources and so please take advantage of the “Amazing Facts dot org” “dot com” or “dot net” website and it will take you to this which is one of the busiest Christian websites. We invite you to use the free resources which you can download Bible Answers from this program and hundreds of others. There are Bible studies you can enroll in there are Bible resources for those of you who reach classes and for preachers and illustrations. And I love to use the word plethora a plethora of information is there at your finger tips. Also you may want to check out “Bible University dot com” website and enroll and get your Apostle of Prophecy certificate for your Bible study. A lot of people have a lot of questions about this very interesting topic about what is the Sabbath day and what is the true Sabbath that is still intact? Check out the “Sabbath Truth dot com”. And so there are a number of websites we would recommend and in the meantime you can even call your friends up and tell them to give us a call we still have some lines open. If you have a Bible question to reach us here I the studio it is a free phone call here in North America at 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297.

In a few moments we will be back and Pastor Dick has some important announcements to share with you and sometimes the best part of the program is the second half because we have gotten as we say our second wind. So stay tuned. We’ll be right back friends.


Pastor Doug: We are glad that we are still here and that you are still there listening friends if you have just tuned in after the first half. This is “Bible Answers Live” and incredible, interactive, international Bible study that you have found your way to. And you can participate by listening to the questions that are coming to here that are live and we often do not know exactly what is going to come in and if you’d like to call in with a question we have a line or two open still 1-800-GOD-SAYS or 1-800-463-7297 brings you into the studio and we also offer a number of free resources and we will give that number out in just a moment. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Art: And I am Art Bran and we are here back on “Live” again. We want to go with Judith on WKLR in Little Rock, Arkansas Judith, good evening.

Judith: Hello.

Pastor Art: Alright you are on.

Judith: Alright a question about seeds you were talking about that lived for so long. This made me think about a presentation on Christian television. About the ferns and herbs and all the Scriptures say is a little bit about the body and how it is prepared. Do you know anything about the Jewish customs and what they do to prepare a body?

Pastor Doug: Well yes it does say that Nicodemis brought myrrh and it was also they used to use spikenard and remember when Mary Magdalene anointed Jesus. Jesus said she is anointing me for my burial because they usually offered that for the burial of Kings. It was a very expensive ointment and it wasn’t only used for burial. But, Jesus said that and then the women came bringing the spices and they had a mixture it was sort of a concoction that they got from the apothecary that was assembled for burial. You know the Israelites did not live too far from the Egyptians. Keep in mind that Jacob was embalmed and mummified. As was Joseph and so some of those arts of embalming were adopted by the Israelites except the differences we don’t think the Israelites were removing any of the internal organs like the Egyptians did, but they did embalm the body. I don’t know what the concoction was some of the only ingredients mentioned are the aloes is mentioned, myrrh and spikenard.

Judith: Are then all oils?

Pastor Doug: I believe so.

Judith: I just had no idea.

Pastor Doug: Aloes of course comes from a cactus plant. But, it can be melted down into an ointment and then there is spikenard and myrrh and they then become an ointment. Alright?

Judith: Well okay. Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug: Alright I hope that helped.

Pastor Art: Thank you so much Judith. Alright let’s go to Donna on WMCA in East Orange, New Jersey and Donna good evening.

Donna: Hello. Can you hear me?

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Donna: Great thanks for taking my call. My question to you is after Jesus’ crucifixion and He appeared to the disciples and Thomas didn’t believe it. And then it says in John 20: 26 after eight days He appeared again. I am wondering where was He for these eight days?

Pastor Doug: Well that is a good question and I will give you a couple of options. And I don’t want to pretend that I have inside information on everything that Jesus did. But, there are two things that we know that He did that help us to understand what He probably did for the rest of the time. First of all He did ascend into heaven because He told Mary Magdalene do not cling to me for I have not yet ascended to my Father. So we know He did go to heaven. And while in heaven Psalms 24 addresses probably what happened with Him it says “Lift up your heads oh ye gates lift up ye everlasting doors and the King of Glory will come in.” Jesus was welcomed into heaven by the angels as victorious over Satan and sin. So He was coronated to some extent when He came in to heaven. He also came back to earth and appeared to a number of individuals. We know in Luke 24 He appeared to the two disciples on the road to Amayas after the Sunday evening when He first appeared to the disciples. So He may have appeared to a variety of the disciples because the two on the road to Amayas were not apostles and He may have appeared to them to encourage them and then later Paul says that He appeared to five hundred. And Peter says something else Art that Paul says something else that I caught one time that He appeared to Simon meaning Peter. Remember Simon Peter denied Jesus and we know He appeared personally to Paul, to Cleopus on the road to Amayas. Evidently and the Bible doesn’t say that much about it, but He also appeared to Peter. And we don’t know what that meeting was like and I‘d love to know, but He probably went around encouraging the various apostles I hope He appeared to His mother and encouraged her.

Donna: Did they say He ascended and then He came back and then I know in Acts it starts out with His ascension and the disciples watching Him.

Pastor Doug: Over a period of twenty days He ascended to heaven and He may have gone to and from heaven and earth the way the angels do. Keep in mind Jesus pictures a ladder going from heaven to earth. Christ has opened an avenue. And we know that He did appear in heaven after he ascended to heaven back on earth. The last time He appeared was when He ascended on the Mount of Bethany the Mount of Olives and that was when He gave them the great commission. That was ten days before Pentecost and they remained in that room from that time until Pentecost. So yes He came between heaven and earth.

Donna: I see well thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Alright and God bless.

Pastor Art: You are welcome and have a good evening. We are going to go now to Don and he is with KGTF and he’s in Moses Lake, Wisconsin I believe. Well Washington and I have been there alright Don good evening.

Don: Hi. Good evening. My question is do we have—do we do anything to initiate salvation or is it 100 per cent God that is who saves us?

Pastor Doug: If we are drowning and I am answering your question with a question, but that’s okay. If you are drowning and somebody throws you a life preserver and pulls you in you still need to take the preserver. The person who dives in to rescue you or throws you the preserver they are the hero. And God saved us, but there is still something we must do to lay hold of that salvation and the Bible uses those words. So when you say is it 100 per cent God? It is 100 percent for our salvation, but that doesn’t mean there is nothing we can do we are to participate.

Don: Well in John 15:16 it says “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.” And then in Matthew 25: 34 says “The king will take of you those come my blessed of my Father and inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” And in Ephesians 1: 4 says “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him without a spot.” So what I am trying to say is if He has chosen us before the foundations of the world then there is no way that—you know there was no chance that we could not have been saved if we were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Pastor Doug: Well I need to ask you. Do we have any choice? And well what do we do then when Jesus says-

Don: He says that he chose us and that we don’t choose Him.

Pastor Doug: I would be careful to compare Scripture with Scripture. When Joshua says to the people choose you this day whom you will serve did they have a choice to serve the Lord?

Don: No.

Pastor Doug: Well why ask them? When the Lord said at the end of the bible when He says who so ever will let him come and take the water of life. Do we have the opportunity to choose to take the water of life?

Don: No. Because in Romans 3 it says “That there are none righteous no not one. There are none that seek after me.” It says that we have all gone astray.

Pastor Doug: Well you see we agree on that point that what the Holy Spirit as a gift comes to our hearts and moves us, but God does not rob us of our free will.

Don: The only ones that have got free will were Adam and Eve. They actually had a free will to choose right from wrong. And once they chose that were wrong they were spiritually dead. And everyone after them was spiritually dead so God has to save us.

Pastor Doug: If you get tempted Don do you have a choice to give into that temptation or turn away from it?

Don: Well there is a difference between the temptation of the flesh and salvation. I mean because once we become saved we still have sin in our flesh. But, once we become saved we receive a new resurrected soul that you know—that has no sin it. It is the Spirit of God.

Pastor Doug: But, I am still wondering just for the sake of logic do you believe that a person can turn away from temptation?

Don: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Well when you turn away from temptation are you turning to the Lord or are you resisting in your own strength?

Don: You are resisting the flesh because God tells us to crucify the flesh.

Pastor Doug: Isn’t it true though when you turn from temptation you are turning to God?

Don: No I mean because when we become saved God gives us an honest and ongoing desire to do His will. He is the one that gives us the desire to be obedient to God even though we have a body that still lusts after sin.

Pastor Doug: Now let me say we are agreeing—and we were coming so close to the same spot. I think you will find that I agree and that Pastor Art agrees that look penance is a gift that God gives us, but we still must choose to respond to the gift. You know Don we have an article online and I hope you’ll take a look there called “Heavenly Hostage”. It is an article that we wrote that deals with the subject of predestination and the freedom of choice. And it is like marriage you can’t force a person to love. The whole idea of Jesus is to love and why would Jesus say to someone go and sin no more if they had no choice?

Pastor Art: That is right. And you know the book of Revelation speaks of how salvation being an invitation when Jesus says that He will come in and sup with us, but we have to do what?

Pastor Doug: We have to open the door.

Pastor Art: We have to open the door and the door is of course our hearts. And if we are open to receive Christ that is why John 3: 16 says who so ever believes. We can choose not to believe.

Pastor Doug: I think that one reason this doctrine which I very popular that is dangerous the very idea that we have no choice because it then blames God and puts the blame on Him.

Pastor Art: Yeah.

Pastor Doug: I can say well I don’t have any choice I don’t have any free will. And so that is I think sort of a diabolical teaching no offense intended Don, but I have got to give it to you straight. I think we had better move on.

Pastor Art: Alright. Well let’s go to Ruby and Ruby is in Orlando, Florida WTLN Ruby good evening.

Rudy: Hi it is Rudy.

Pastor Art: I am sorry.

Rudy: It is okay.

Pastor Doug: I am guessing that Pastor Art is almost forty and he is ready for glasses.


Rudy: Well thank you both for a wonderful program. I just got off of an airplane and I have just tuned in and this is just a great, great program. You guys are just a blessing to everyone including me so thank you so much!

Pastor Doug: Well praise the Lord. Well thank you and do you have a question for us?

Rudy: Yes and my question is a really odd one it came up the other day when I was talking to one of my friends I Sunday School and he came up and hit me with one of these zingers. And it was one of these make sure you know what you believe and why you believe it. We know that the Bible is clear that Jesus died for our sins and He resurrected on the third day. And I think we pretty much know what the Bible says as to when He died and we pretty much celebrate it as Friday.

Pastor Doug: Right.

Rudy: And then we celebrate Easter on Sunday. But, Christ actually according to the Scripture He died and then on the third day He rose again. So which to us would mean Monday? The question is there an issue with the calendars, pagan views of these, or the Jewish calendar or is there something wrong with when the Sabbath was actually celebrated in those times in first century?

Pastor Doug: Let me see if I can help you I think I see where you are going with this. One of the key things springs from a statement that Jesus makes in Matthew Chapter 12 where He says as Jonah was three nights and three days in the belly of the whale the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Right and so if that is true and He died Friday and He rose Sunday you could say well He was in the grave parts of three days and but, certainly not three nights. It was only two nights and He rose Sunday morning. It is distinctly says three nights.

Rudy: Right.

Pastor Doug: Jesus in Matthew 12 isn’t talking about the tomb being the heart of the earth. The heart of the earth when He says as Jonah was in the belly of the whale and the son of man will be in the heart of the earth the heart of the earth is when Christ began to suffer for our sins and he was in the hands of the devil. It means in the heart of the world and it is cardio or midst of the world. Jesus was in the midst of the world suffering for our sins from the devil and that started Thursday night when He was betrayed. Immediately after the New Covenant at the Last Supper and in the Garden Jesus said now is the hour and He began to suffer for our sins. It was not on the cross everyone knows He suffered a lot before the cross.

Rudy: In Gethsemane?

Pastor Doug: Right He suffered Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night and the penalty for sin is not just death it is suffering to death.

Rudy: Right, right. So what would be the Scripture—well I guess so-

Pastor Doug: Well let me give you some.

Rudy: I guess in Gethsemane and I’ll look in-

Pastor Doug: One of the good ones is Luke Chapter 23: 55 when the women laid Him in the tomb. It says they beheld the tomb and how it was laid and they returned and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath according to the commandment. It is a clear reference to the fourth commandment. So this has got to be Friday night or Friday afternoon. Then it says on the first day and everyone knows that Friday the sixth day is the preparation day is what the Bible calls it. Jesus kept the Sabbath in the tomb you might say. He rose Sunday morning the first day of the week. But, He began suffering Thursday night. So it is Thursday, Friday, Saturday and He was in the tomb over the parts of three days. So in the Jewish thinking any part of the day is the day.

Pastor Art: Constitutes a day?

Pastor Doug: Yeah.

Rudy: So Luke 23: 55 and?

Pastor Doug: I am sorry it is Luke 23:55 and read all the way through to Luke 24: 1. It is three verses.

Rudy: Okay.

Pastor Doug: But, I will send you a book that explains it in more detail if you want that I wrote and it is called the “Sign of Jonah”.

Rudy: That would be awesome!

Pastor Doug: If you can remember our resource number.

Pastor Art: Our resource number is 1-800-835-6747 and ask us for “The Sign of Jonah”. Alright Rudy and thank you.

Rudy: Thank you very much.

Pastor Art: Alright and you have a good evening.

Rudy: Alright bye-bye.

Pastor Art: Alright Pastor Doug let’s go to line 2 with Matthew on 3ABNin Fanning, Oregon and Matthew good evening.

Matthew: Yes sir. Thank you for this opportunity. I just have a question on the history of the King James Version of how the Bible came together and I was just wondering all these new translations coming out and I heard that due to the discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls that there are a lot of things that the King James 1611 does not have. And I am just wondering is that true?

Pastor Doug: That is not true. Those are really—just think about this for one second-none of the New Testament was in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Old Testament is never the part that is contested because the Jews have always had millions of copies of the Old Testament Scriptures ever since the time of Christ. The Old Testament accuracy is never in question because there were so many copies of the Torah and of those prophetic writings that the Jews have been very careful about. Although the argument about the translation really revolves around—and I shouldn’t say all Pastor Art– it is mostly we know revolves around the discrepancies in the New Testament translations. And there is really nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls that really would affect that. That is a myth because the Dead Sea Scrolls all date back before Christ. Do you see what I am saying there was no New Testament then.

Matthew: Yes praise God.

Pastor Doug: So the Dead Sea Scrolls just contain versions of the Old Testament. The best original manuscripts and I shouldn’t say original because they don’t have them. The best manuscripts from what we get called the King James Version and the number of other more accurate versions is called the Textus Receptus or the Seed Texts. There is more supporting evidence for its accuracy than the manuscripts called the Vaticanus from which you get some of the NIV and some of the modern translations. Now I’m going to give you something. I grew up in New York City Matthew and I am a little cynical. The King James Version is public domain because it is so old. In order for Publishers to make any money selling Bibles they need to have a new version of it. And so one reason that you keep seeing new versions pop up is they can copy right them. For instance Zondervan has the copy right on the NIV and Thomas Nelson has the copy right on the New King James Version. You can go down the line with the different publishers. So they feel like they have to publish this to try and say it differently to be able to have a different version that have can then copyright and sell. So don’t be fooled into thinking that all of the modern versions are going to be more accurate. Some of them may be easier to read and I agree with that. Okay?

Matthew: Okay thank you. And I wanted to make a comment on that brother that was looking for Noah’s Ark.

Pastor Doug: Yeah you found it?

Matthew: No not me. It has been found though and if he can hear me tell him to look up anchorstones.com they have solid evidence.

Pastor Doug: Alright I’ll say I know where you are going and I have been to that website. I have friends who believe that is an authentic site, but I respectfully disagree and we are still friends, but at any rate who do we have next Pastor Art?

Pastor Art: Thank you for your call Matthew and we are going to Cameron in Redding, California and Cameron good evening you’re on the air.

Cameron: Hi.

Pastor Art: What is your question and how can we help you?

Cameron: I have a question because I am watching your seminar from 1999. And it has changed my life and it has started to change a lot of my friend’s lives. And they have questions about UFOs and Aliens and stuff and I feel that it is less than four maybe as high as five or six being quarantined and can you help me find some more Scripture on like how we are being quarantined and Lucifer is allowed to test the other worlds and then acme to this one.

Pastor Doug: Well there is no Scripture that says that specifically. There is a lot of information in Job which is probably the oldest book in the Bible. It tells us that Lucifer came from earth to this heavenly meeting. And he was kind of representing the earth and this is where Adam would have come because Adam was the son of God. The Bible says in Luke Adam who was the son of God. And in this meeting the sons of God were meeting before the Lord. But, the devil came to represent the earth because Adam sold the dominion to the devil. So no humans are allowed to access and evidently the only beings that are allowed to come from heaven to earth are angels. With the exception as we said earlier of Moses and Elijah came back. But, our planet has a disease called sin and it is kind of like a hospital. Where no one can go to someone with a contagious disease where they are except the hospital staff. And once we are purified we will once again soar to worlds unknown. We’ll be able to visit unfallen worlds I believe. But, there is you know none other than Bible commentators that say that Satan went to other worlds to tempt them.

Cameron: So there are no other Scriptures about that and it is just like false doctrines in away?

Pastor Doug: Well no it is not a false doctrine. You have got in Revelation 12 where it says there is a war in heaven so we know that what came to earth began out there. Right? And Satan as Lucifer was cast down to earth according to Isaiah Chapter 12.

Cameron: So there are places in the Bible where you can read this?

Pastor Doug: Yes you do a little detective work and you start to get a picture of it. But, there is no one verse that says it the way you worded it.

Cameron: Is there anything in L.L. Rice’s writings that you can recommend? My friend has all the books.

Pastor Doug: Well yes all you have to do is go to that masterpiece called Patriarchs and Prophets and you will find a reference there that talk about the origin of sin. Hopefully that will help a little bit.

Cameron: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Thank you Cameron.

Pastor Art: Thank you Cameron and we are going to go to Catherine on WAPX in Orlando, Florida. Hello Catherine.

Catherine: Hello I am glad I got through.

Pastor Art: Well we’re glad you made it. Thank you for being patient.

Catherine: Well I have a friend who tells me her mother went to heaven and is telling her about these angelic beings. So I took her to Ecclesiastes 9: 5 where it says neither the dead nor the kind have any more remembrance of anything in this life. And she reminded me of when Paul went to the widow of Endure and coming up in the—[call dropped] hello?

Pastor Doug: Yes we are here.

Catherine: They were coming up with Samuel and Samuel even did project and he was telling about the beings that were sleeping would be with him tomorrow.

Pastor Doug: Okay.

Catherine: Now I know there had to be a logical explanation for why this happened like that.

Pastor Doug: No the Bible doesn’t lie and you again if you just do a little bit of logical work here and when it tells us that the witch conjures up Samuel the Bible is talking about who this demon of course is attempting to impersonate. It could not have been Samuel for a number of reasons. First of all the devil does not have power to resurrect much less a witch. Secondly Samuel says to King Saul you will be with me. How can this King who grieved away the spirit of God be sharing in the reward of a holy prophet if they are going to the same place? Thirdly the message that Samuel gives has absolutely no value and the messages that the Lord usually gives give warning and hope. It was a hopeless message and so we don’t believe that this witch because that is why God pronounced the death penalty on any one who conjured up the dead because it was very deceptive.

Pastor Art: And also if you look at the Scripture it actually says if you read the message that the witch gave the actual text says and she perceived that it was Samuel. Not that it was Samuel. In fact it says the gods’ small “g” gods coming up out of the earth were demons. That is right.

Pastor Doug: They were demons. You know if you read to your friend Job 7: 10 Catherine it says Job will return no more to his house speaking of a dead person. And we know you already read Ecclesiastes 9: 5 and you can look in Psalms 146: 3 so there are a number of verses in the Bible that say dead people do not come back to haunt the living the Bible is very clear about that. Well we have a lesson called “Are the Dead Really Dead?” we’ll send that free to you if you call the resource number.

Catherine: Is that 1-800-835-6747?

Pastor Doug: Yes. “Are the Dead Really Dead” you can ask for that.

Catherine: Okay thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Oh you just got in under the wire. Thank you Catherine. Listening friends before you reach over and change that dial please allow me to remind you that if you have been blessed by the program the only reason you are hearing this is because folks just like you say hey we want to keep it on the air. We hope the Holy Spirit will tickle your conscious to drop us a line and if you can do anything to support us we appreciate it. You can even do it easily online. You can make a donation online by going to “Amazing Facts dot org” and I will tell you that if you make a gift of any size we will give you copy of the “Best of Amazing Facts” from the first five years of the program. It is great for teachers and preachers and speakers. It has illustrations and is just interesting reading. We will send that to you if you can just help us stay on the air and spread the good news that Jesus is coming soon. The main thing we want you to know friends is it is not about the details it is about Jesus the truth that will set you free.


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