The Coelacanth

Date: 12/19/2004 
A few days before Christmas in 1938, a strange fish was caught in a net near the mouth of the Chalumna River in South Africa. Captain Hendrik Goosen and...
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Hello friends! This is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? A few days before Christmas in 1938, a strange fish was caught in a net near the mouth of the Chalumna River in South Africa. Captain Hendrik Goosen and his crew thought the fish was bizarre enough to alert the local museum in the town of East London.

The Director of the museum, Ms. Marjorie Courtenay-Latimer, described the creature as, "The most beautiful fish I had ever seen, five feet long and pale mauve blue with iridescent, silver markings." Marjorie had no idea what the fish was, but she knew it must go back to the museum at once.

Searching through the few reference books on hand, Marjorie found a picture that she said lead her to a seemingly impossible conclusion. Her specimen bore a striking similarities to a long-extinct, prehistoric fish. She alerted the prominent South African Ichthyologist, Dr. J.L.B. Smith, to this amazing discovery.

Professor Smith came and identified the fish immediately as a Coelacanth. The fish would soon be called the most important, zoological find of the century, a living dinosaur. This "living fossil" comes from a species of fish that was firmly believed to have lived long before the time of the dinosaurs, with a fossil record dating them back over 360 million years, predating even the time of the dinosaurs by millions of years; and once thought to have gone extinct with the dinosaurs 80 million years ago.

Dr. Smith, Courtenay-Latimer, and the Coelacanth became overnight celebrities. When a public viewing was arranged for one day, 20,000 visitors are said to have shown up. Over the years, several other Coelacanths have been caught, mostly around Indonesia. How could the Coelacanth supposedly disappear for over 80 million years, and then turn up alive again, and well, in the 20th century?

It has also been taught that the Coelacanth was a missing link with its proto-legs that were evolving into limbs. If evolution is true and these fish have been around since before the dinosaurs, why have they not evolved any improvements in that long a span? Stay with us friends; and we're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug: We are so thankful that you are tuning in friends. This is Bible Answers Live, another fresh program. If you have any Bible questions, this is a good time to pick up your phone and give us a call. It's a toll-free phone call, and it's 1-800-GOD-SAYS, that's 1-800-463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: And my name is Dick Devitt. Good evening Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Good evening Pastor Dick.

Pastor Dick: Let's start our program with a word of prayer.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Pastor Dick: Father in heaven, we praise You and we thank You because we have this opportunity again tonight to come together and delve into the Word of God and to listen to what You have to say to us. Lord, I pray that You will speak clearly through Pastor Doug, that You will keep him focused on what it is that You want us to know tonight, Lord. Speak to us tonight I pray in Jesus' name, amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen!

Pastor Dick: This is an amazing fact. I like to fish, and boy, you know, to catch something like that probably would be quite a fight; five feet long, but a beautiful, beautiful fish.

Pastor Doug: Very rare, they are out there. And evidently, the natives, when the doctors and professors all delved in on South Africa to examine this discovery, some of the natives there and in Indonesia said, "Oh yeah, we've seen this fish before. We've caught it over the years." They called it the "king of the sea" in their native tongue.

Pastor Dick: Um m

Pastor Doug: But the interesting thing is they have fossils of this fish that, based on the dating methods they use for every fossil, is one of the oldest creatures that they said had been extinct for 80 million years, and existed before even the dinosaurs. They called it a missing link because it has four fins that sort of come down from its torso.

There are fins but they're stubby, and they said, "Well see, they're developing into legs."

Pastor Dick: You've got a picture of it on your computer there. We were just looking at it.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. We were all looking at it and someone in our studio said, "Well, I guess this fish got left behind and the others all crawled up onto land."

Pastor Dick: [Chuckles]

Pastor Doug: But that's a long time to just kind of get stuck in your evolutionary process, unless there's something wrong with our dating methods, obviously.

Pastor Dick: Okay

Pastor Doug: Or something wrong with the theory of evolution.

Pastor Dick: Ahhh

Pastor Doug: But God has a lot of wonders out there in creation that maybe still aren't discovered. They're naming new species of creatures all the time, some that they say, again, they thought were extinct.

Pastor Dick: Well, and it's believed that there may even be beings. We believe that there are beings in other worlds that were quarantined and we can't get to them until Christ sets us free.

Pastor Doug: I think that's very probably. The more we study how vast space is, the more clear it becomes that God has--well we know God has other creations - -

Pastor Dick: Right

Pastor Doug: - - because He tells us He has angels, and cherubims, and seraphims.

Pastor Dick: Right

Pastor Doug: But there's other life out there.

Pastor Dick: So from the sea to space it truly is amazing.

Pastor Doug: Whether you pull out your microscope or telescope, God gets bigger, man gets smaller.

Pastor Dick: Amen, amen. Well, we have a special offer tonight that we haven't offered in awhile. It has been a long time I think Doug.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Pastor Dick: It's called Amazing Wonders of Creation. This is a book that will add evidence to all of the questions that come up in creation. If you would like to add this book to your resources, we invite you to call our operators at 1-800-835-6747. This is a convincing study of how the great mysteries of land and sea point to a great Creator God.

We encourage you to add this resource to your library, 1-800-835-6747, is the number. Ask for Amazing Wonders of Creation. We have some new stations to add Pastor Doug. We celebrate when we hear about these. Paradise, California, KRGR; Peoria, Illinois, WWKJ; Berrien Springs, Michigan, WSFT; Marshall, Michigan, WMLY; Cedar Lake, Michigan, WGLN; Elizabethtown, North Carolina, WDJD; and WJSY in Newport, Vermont.

These stations, all FM stations, are being added to the Live Talk Network, adding to Amazing Facts.

Pastor Doug: That's exciting!

Pastor Dick: It is exciting, so if you are listening to any of those stations, please give us a call and let us know and we'll do our best to get you on the air tonight and greet you officially as part of the Amazing Facts network. Pastor Doug, you've got something going on in March of 2005.

Pastor Doug: Yes. We want to encourage our friends. Any of you who are able to access the Internet, you may type in the phrase You've all heard about the DaVinci Code and the Bible Code. We are having a special series of meetings that will help explain some of the codes of prophetic symbols so we can better understand the future.

Pastor Dick: Yes

Pastor Doug: It'll be broadcast live by satellite from the D.C. area; and we'll be on around the world, but our focus is North and South America. So we will be broadcasting from Washington D.C. March 4th through the 26th. Those of you who are listening, it will be in locations in every major city in North America. You can just go on the Internet.

The map may not be posted yet, but you can register and go on the Internet and find out where in your area you can sit in and participate or bring your friends to the Prophecy Code.

Pastor Dick: We hope you'll do this folks. I know Doug has been spending some time on the sermons and getting all the material together, and so we hope that you'll participate in this worldwide prophecy outreach.

Pastor Doug: Amen

Pastor Dick: Please check it out. Go to the Internet at and they'll be able to tell you where in your area the programs will be held. Pastor Doug, we're an international broadcast. We get around the world, and I just wanted to mention for a moment some of the countries that we are heard on a regular basis.

In Belize, down in Central America; in Bermuda; in Canada; Costa Rica; El Salvador; Tahiti; Panama; Singapore; South Africa; the Virgin Islands; in Europe; the Middle East; in North Africa; and on the island of Guam.

Pastor Doug: Amen

Pastor Dick: Truly - -

Pastor Doug: That's not even counting the Internet, which puts us really everywhere.

Pastor Dick: That's right, that's right. Truly we are growing to an international broadcast.

Pastor Doug: It's so exciting!

Pastor Dick: It's exciting because this Gospel message is being preached to the entire world and the Lord is just around the corner. That's what's exciting!

Pastor Doug: Amen

Pastor Dick: A couple of Internet questions, and then we'll go to the phones, Pastor Doug. The first one comes to us from Callie who says that she is a new Christian. She's been reading her Bible and she has noticed that God the Father does not have a last name. Is there a reason behind God the Father not having a last name?

Pastor Doug: Well, there are a number of names that are applied to God. He's called the Almighty; the El Shaddai; sometimes the term, Yahweh, the sacred name of God, and that's the nearest that they know to say it. Some translate it Jehovah.

But the first and last names that we have in our Victorian country, so to speak, that comes from--well, the name like "Jesus of Nazareth." It would identify your proper name and either the town or family that you came from.

Pastor Dick: Um-hm, um-hm

Pastor Doug: Sometimes He's called Jesus, Son of Joseph. So God the Father is not going to be God from uh, you know, West Brooklyn.

Pastor Dick: [Laughs]

Pastor Doug: Or, He's not going to be God the son of anybody, and so one name is enough.

Pastor Dick: Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, alright, very good. Second question that we have for you, Pastor Doug, has to do with the Internet and doing online business. We're told that we're suppose to work six days and leave a day to the Lord.

Pastor Doug: Um-hm

Pastor Dick: And whatever your Sabbath is, the question is, "What do you do with the Sabbath hours if you are operating a business on the Internet?"

Pastor Doug: Well, you can post something, of course, on your website that would ask people to honor, if it's the Sabbath in their location, don't do any buying or selling on the Internet. Of course, because the world is round, some places where the Sabbath is ending it's beginning.

Pastor Dick: Right

Pastor Doug: And so you can't really control that, because the days are different. Matter of fact, if you cross the dateline, it can get confusing. I missed my 40th birthday because I left on March 8th and I arrived in Australia on the 10th. I forget if I was coming back or going, but in any event, I'm a year younger because I missed my 40th birthday.

Pastor Dick: [Laughs]

Pastor Doug: My birthday is the 9th. So, you can't control it; but the best a Christian business can do is just post something and say, "We appreciate your respecting that we would rather not do business on the Sabbath," and do it at another time; just trust them. It's electronic, it's hard to control.

Pastor Dick: I always thought that there was only one Jack Benny, Pastor Doug, but you're holding at 39 [laughs]

Pastor Doug: [Laughs] I'm holding at 39 now, that's right.

Pastor Dick: [Laughs] Well let's go to the phones and take our first caller for the evening, alright? We'll go to Brooklyn, New York. Speaking of Brooklyn, we want to talk with Daniel who is in Brooklyn listening on WMCA. Welcome Daniel.

Daniel: Hello Pastor Doug, Pastor Dick

Pastor Doug: Hi, how can we help you tonight?

Daniel: I have a two-part question about Revelation 19:20.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Daniel: The first part is doesn't this verse sort of imply that the beast and the false prophet are individuals since only people will be cast into the lake of fire and not religious institutions or systems, like I believe? And (b), why is there a lake of fire before the 1,000 years?

Pastor Doug: Well, we know that there's a fire when Jesus comes because you can read in 2nd Peter--I'm answering the second part of your question first. In 2nd Peter chapter 3, it says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." So there's fire both sides of the millennium.

But to your other question about the beast must be an individual if it's cast into the lake of fire, keep in mind that even Jesus talked about the Judgment day, in regard to cities. He said, "Woe unto you Chorazin..." "It will be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah..." and "It will be easier for Ninevah...."

And powers, and those who are associated with those powers, can be judged. Individuals who are associated with governments or powers that are wicked will receive the judgment of those powers. See, the lake of fire is not prepared for people. It says the lake of fire is prepared for Satan and his angels; but those who follow, whether it's an institution, a government, or individuals, those who follow the devil and his angels will meet the same fate.

So this language about the beast and the false prophet, I think that the beast may have a leader at that time; and that individual will be thrown in the lake of fire. But he leads an institution, you know what I'm saying? Let me give you another biblical example, okay Daniel?

Daniel: Yup

Pastor Doug: In the book of Daniel it talks about Nebuchadnezzar who has this dream about these different beasts. And through the book of Daniel, there's a number of visions. One of the beasts is identified as Greece by the angel. It's a goat, but it tells us that the first king is Alexander the Great. It gives the name of an individual who is sort of a figurehead for the whole kingdom.

Nebuchadnezzar was one king, and Daniel said, "You are the head of gold," but it was Babylon. It says, "It's your kingdom is the golden kingdom." So, it's not uncommon for an individual to be associated with the entire entity, the government, or the power.

Daniel: Okay

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Daniel: Yup

Pastor Dick: It's the attitudes isn't it? It's - -

Pastor Doug: One more example in Revelation I just thought of. Herod, this time of year we're thinking about when King Herod killed all the babies.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: He's identified as a dragon who wants to "devour the man child as soon as it is born." Well, the devil manipulated King Herod, using the Roman power, to try and kill all the babies in an attempt to eradicate Jesus.

Pastor Dick: Um-hm

Pastor Doug: So these individual kings are often the figureheads for the powers, the beasts. So yes, the beast, the false prophet and the dragon are all cast into the lake of fire.

Daniel: I was just confused because chapter 20, verse 10 says that the beast and the false prophet are still there because the devil will be cast in there "where the beast and the false prophet are." So that would indicate that they are still there. I was just confused with the language, you know.

Pastor Doug: Well one of the keys when you're reading Revelation, each chapter takes you a distance, and then the next chapter sort of backs up and recovers some of the same material. It's not all perfect, chronological order.

Daniel: Oh, well that will explain a lot.

Pastor Doug: Yup

Daniel: Yeah

Pastor Doug: Alright, hey, I appreciate it.

Daniel: Thank you

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Daniel. Let's stay in Brooklyn and talk with Shaun, who's also listening on WMCA. Hello Shaun.

Shaun: Alright, good night Pastors

Pastor Doug: Good evening

Shaun: Yeah, I've got a two-part question concerning Job chapter 1, verse 6.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Shaun: It says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." I would just like to know, like, what sons of God that it's referring to and where did they present themselves?

Pastor Doug: Good question. First part of the question, who are the sons of God? We're led to believe that--well first of all, the meeting is not on earth, because Satan says, "I have come from the earth." So in order for him to address God and God says, "Where did you come from?" and he says, "I came from the earth," the meeting is not on earth. This is a celestial meeting, meaning somewhere else in the cosmos.

Then God--the meeting says, "the sons of God." These are probably the representatives or leaders of unfallen worlds. One reason I say that is Adam is called the "son of God." It tells us that all of us are born. We all have a father, but Adam's Father, he wasn't born, he was created. He is called the "son of God." And so these sons of God may be the leaders of other worlds.

Shaun: Okay

Pastor Doug: Some have wondered were these the angels; and that could be why Lucifer came. If these are the leaders of the other worlds, Adam couldn't come because he had sold out the world and, of course, he was dead by the time of Job. So Lucifer says, "That's my planet. I'm the prince of the earth. I'm coming to represent planet earth."

Shaun: When you say "leaders of the other worlds," - -

Pastor Doug: Yeah

Shaun: - - what other worlds?

Pastor Doug: Well we believe the Bible says in Colossians that, "God made the worlds through Christ." Hebrews chapter uh, is it chapter 1, verse 3? Let me go there real quick and I'll try and find that for you. You've got a Bible handy?

Shaun: Yeah, I got a Bible.

Pastor Doug: Hebrews chapter 1, verse 2, "God has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, who he has appointed heir of all things, by whom he made the worlds;" plural. So there are other worlds according to the Bible.

Shaun: Okay

Pastor Doug: And you think about how long God has lived and how immense space is, this is the only lost sheep, this planet, and that's why the plan of salvation is being acted out here. Hope that helps a little bit Shaun.

Pastor Dick: Appreciate your call. Let's go to Decatur, Arkansas. Dorena is listening on KHBR. Welcome Dorena.

Dorena: Yes, I do have a question.

Pastor Doug: Yes ma'am

Dorena: And I can't tell you the verse of Scripture. I'm blind.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Dorena: But I had always believed that our names are written in the book of life when we accept Christ; but there's a Scripture, I think I'm quoting it almost correctly, which says who the names were [sic] not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Can you explain that to me?

Pastor Doug: Well, our names can be written in the Book of Life before we die, which would obviously be when we accept Christ because Jesus said in Revelation 3, verse 5, "He that overcomes, the same will be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life."

In order for Jesus to blot the name out of the book, it must be in the book. In Daniel chapter 12 it says, "everyone who is found written in the book," speaking of the resurrection, and that would be the book of life also.

Dorena: Would it be then that they're written in from the foundation of the world? And that would not be - -

Pastor Doug: No. The names are not written from the foundation of the world because a person must make a choice for their name to be written in the book of life. In Philippians chapter 4, verse 3, Dorena, - -

Dorena: Yeah

Pastor Doug: - - here Paul speaks to his fellow laborers, "whose names are in the book of life." So these are people whose names were in the book.

Dorena: Um-hm

Pastor Doug: Oh, I think I know what verse you're talking about. I'm looking over the references here. You're talking about Revelation 17, verse 8.

Dorena: I'm not sure. I can't - -

Pastor Doug: Well yeah--let me read it to you and I think this is what you're talking about, "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world."

Dorena: Yes that's it.

Pastor Doug: Alright. What that is saying is their names are not written in the book that had been created at the foundation of the world when man sinned. It's talking about the book, not when their names are written. This book has existed from the foundation of the world, do you see what I'm saying?

Dorena: Yes

Pastor Doug: So the verse is not talking about people's names being written or not being written at the foundation. It's saying the book has existed since the foundation because that's when the first people sinned and they needed forgiveness.

Dorena: Then they are written when we accept Christ?

Pastor Doug: Yes

Dorena: Alright, then they can be erased.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. Revelation, - -

Dorena: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: - - several places talks about blotted out of the book of life.

Dorena: Is there time for another quick question?

Pastor Doug: Yea, real quick.

Dorena: Alright. Paul speaks about languages. I think it's in Corinthians.

Pastor Doug: First Corinthians 14.

Dorena: And I believe those are languages, but I don't understand the verse that says, "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

Pastor Doug: Yes, that's a good question. Paul is not saying that praying in the Spirit and in the understanding are two different things. Paul is saying, "I will pray in the Spirit, as I pray with the understanding." In other words, "I'm going to do both. I will pray, I will sing in the Spirit, and in the understanding."

Whenever we pray, we want to be praying in the Spirit. Whenever we sing, we want to be singing in the Spirit. Paul is saying, "Do it in the Spirit."

Dorena: Sincerely.

Pastor Doug: Yeah. So it's not two separate things.

Dorena: I see.

Pastor Doug: You can't really do real prayer without it being in the Spirit.

Dorena: That's true.

Pastor Doug: Okay?

Dorena: Alright, thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: You're welcome, thank you.

Pastor Dick: Let's go next to Brooklyn. Obed is listening on WMCA. Welcome Obed.

Obed: Hello, how are you?

Pastor Doug: Very well, how about you?

Obed: I'm doing okay.

Pastor Doug: And your question?

Obed: Yeah uh, I had a question, but I changed my mind about it. I have another question to ask you about the translation of the Bible.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Obed: Yeah. There are so many of them. I think I have a book here that has 28 different translations.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Obed: I would like to know why the King James Version, it's like there's so much--it's like people really love this translation. I would like to know why? What is so divine about the translation?

Pastor Doug: Alright. Well first of all, Obed, we have a book we'll send you for free if you just call and request it. It's called The Faithful Witness. It's a book that deals with Bible translations, some of their strengths and weaknesses, and why the King James is so popular. It deals with that, but let me give you a quick answer.

The first English translation was Wycliffe and every other English translation has used that as sort of an outline. The King James translation did more because it was legally endorsed and spread around the English empire, which, at that time, the sun never set on the English empire. Its influence on the English language, in phraseology, they used it to teach in schools, is immeasurable.

And for its beauty, its poetry, they had 70 scholars working on the translation of it, it is just a masterpiece that will probably never be replicated. So, for an English translation, it just has become a standard. It is not flawless, because a translation is not necessarily inspired. It might be, but a translation is different men that are doing their best to translate what is inspired into their language, see what I'm saying?

Obed: Okay

Pastor Doug: I could do a translation if I speak two languages. Anyone can do one if they can translate - -

Obed: Right [chuckles]

Pastor Doug: - - and it could be accurate or inaccurate. There are many other good translations. Some are very bad. They usually don't get so popular.

Obed: Yeah. What do you say of the New King James Version and the New International Version?

Pastor Doug: Well, I feel differently. The manuscripts that they used to translate them vary. The New King James Version, like the King James Version, used the Textus Receptus as its primary manuscript.

Obed: Okay

Pastor Doug: The New King James Version, really what it does is it takes the King James language and it modernizes words. Instead of saying, "saith," it will say, "said;" "beholdeth," it'll say "behold." It gets rid of some of the archaic language we don't use anymore and simply uses the more modern terms. But it's still holding the King James' wording.

Whereas the NIV is really a revolutionary different translation. It's not my favorite for its accuracy. They used the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus manuscripts, which are dubious, or questionable, manuscripts.

Obed: Okay

Pastor Doug: So I hope that you'll ask for, Obed, the book The Faithful Witness. There's a lot more there on that. Coming up to a break. We have time for one more Pastor Dick?

Pastor Dick: Pastor Doug, I'd hate to get started, really. I think we're just about out of time, 1-800-835-6747, Obed, is the phone number if you would like to ask for that resource. 1-800-835-6747, and anybody else who would like that resource, or any of the things that we mentioned during the program can call our resource operator and ask for those resources, 1-800-835-6747.

Pastor Doug: Also, we want to remind our friends that are listening that if you go to the Amazing Facts website, I think that they said right now that 50% of American homes are hooked up to the Internet, or more now, - -

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: - - that if you to go the website,, you will find a free library. A lot of the resources that we're offering you not only come in book form, but we think the information is so important that I labored with our Publishing Department and said, "Look, let's just post this stuff. If people believe in what we're doing, they'll support us."

You can even donate online, but we don't want to charge for everything because we think the truth needs to fly. We want to spread it like the leaves of autumn. Also, we have a lot of people that are wanting to do a deeper Bible study; and if you can access the Internet, go to There's a place that you can sign up as a student and go through a Bible study course that will even take you into some of the deeper books of prophecy.

You can get your degree in that Bible study course. You will never be the same, I'll promise you that. In a minute we're going to come back with some more Bible questions. We hope that you've got a pencil handy because we make a lot of offers. You do want to keep track of the toll-free number for our resources. Pastor Dick has been giving it out, 1-800-835-6747.

And also, I think I told you at the beginning of our first half hour that don't forget to tell your friends and enemies that beginning March 4th through the 26th, we're going to be up linking by satellite to the world the Prophecy Code from our nation's capitol; and it will be a Bible prophecy extravaganza. This is on TV, and it will also be carried on 3ABN Radio.

So just a few announcements. We're going to come back, give you a chance to sharpen your pencil, get a drink, and have more Bible questions.


Pastor Doug: Welcome, if you are just joining us, this is Bible Answers Live. We're entering the second half of our program, ready to charge out of the gate and get your Bible questions. We do still have a couple of lines open. The toll-free number is 1-800-GOD-SAYS. The Bible is our Source Book, 1-800-463-7297. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Dick: My name is Dick Devitt, and let's charge ahead, Pastor Doug, to Sacramento, California. David is listening on KFIA. Hello David.

David: Praise the Lord Pastor Doug, Pastor Dick. My question is coming from Romans chapter 8, verses 15 and 16, - -

Pastor Doug: Okay

David: - - as well as Romans chapter 8, verse 26.

Pastor Doug: And your question?

David: The question is concerning, okay, it talks about how, um--Well I'll just read verse 15. "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." And in 26, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." And there's a lot of talk concerning those two Scriptures, saying that these Scriptures are referring to speaking in tongues, you know, the way that it's done now, and I know you guys have had that subject.

Pastor Doug: Yup

David: But just, you know, concerning that people claim that the reason people can't understand what they're saying is because it's the Spirit speaking on their behalf and making intercession.

Pastor Doug: Well, would you like me to comment on that?

David: Yes, yes please.

Pastor Doug: I think that they answer is in the verse itself. You notice what it says? "The spirit is helping our infirmities: for we don't know what we should pray for."

David: Right

Pastor Doug: You notice it doesn't say, it's not talking about how we pray, - -

David: Right

Pastor Doug: - - it's what we pray for, the subject of our prayer, "as we ought to: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings." The Holy Spirit will pray eloquently before the

Father and, don't miss this, "which cannot be uttered." In other words, that kind of prayer can not be uttered, not be babbling, not by words.

David: Yeah, that's, that's, that's - -

Pastor Doug: So the idea that this babbling in tongues is that prayer that can't be uttered, it's a contradiction. It can't be uttered. And so it's not the prayer that's uttered.

David: Yeah. That's the same explanation. I had this discussion with somebody else. That's kind of the same thing I went through. I was, like,--and also, I kind of brought up the fact that if these babblings are the only way that the Spirit makes intercession for us, then there are a lot of people that don't get any prayer by the Holy Spirit, you know. That means intercession is only for those that have this supposed gift of tongues, uh - -

Pastor Doug: Yeah, there are a lot of times when we pray and there's a yearning, a desperation in our heart, and we don't know exactly how to pray. Sometimes we're depressed and we don't know why.

Pastor Dick: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: And we can get on our knees and just say, "Lord, help!" and the Holy Spirit will take our prayer and make it eloquent before God. There's no virtue in our making babbling noises.

David: Right, yeah.

Pastor Doug: Paul said he'd rather speak five words with his understanding that he might teach others than ten thousand in an unintelligible tongue. You've probably have read the book that we have called Captured by Tongues.

David: Not yet.

Pastor Doug: We'll send it to you free if you'd like it.

David: That would be helpful.

Pastor Doug: Yup. Just call the toll-free number, David, and ask for Captured by Tongues and Pastor Dick will give you that.

Pastor Dick: 1-800-835-6747 David. Ask for Captured by Tongues and we'll send it right out to you. Thanks for the call David. To Sacramento, California, John is listening on KFIA. Welcome John.

John: Hey thanks

Pastor Dick: You bet. Your question please?

John: Yeah, I was going to ask a question about Zechariah, but I found one that was more interesting. I wanted to ask this one as well, but I think I'll just jump to it, if you don't mind. It's Acts 20, verse 28.

Pastor Doug: Acts 20:28, go ahead.

John: It seems to say that the Savior and the Holy Ghost are the same Person, based on the last part of the verse.

Pastor Doug: Alright. Let me read this for our listeners. I like to always be conscious that a lot of the listeners are in vehicles. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock of God, over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood." Is that the verse?

John: That's the one, yes.

Pastor Doug: And you're wondering if the Holy Ghost and the Savior are the same?

John: It sounds like it's saying that the Holy Ghost has purchased our redemption with His own blood.

Pastor Doug: Well, if God is composed of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the functions of saving are similar to all Three. Let me read this again. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock," Paul is admonishing the church leaders to watch over the church, "over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers," and what is he asking them to do? "To feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood."

The subject is not the Holy Spirit, it's God purchasing with His own blood. That would be God the Son, of course.

John: It sounds like, grammatically, the way it's reading that the Holy Ghost has attributed to the Savior.

Pastor Doug: Well, the Holy Ghost is involved in our salvation. I don't know--is there a conflict here?

John: No

Pastor Doug: God the Father, Son, and Spirit are all our salvation. Jesus said, "The Father Himself loveth you." And the Holy Spirit, as soon as Jesus left He sent the Holy Spirit to help complete, or culminate, and retain our salvation; and so, I don't know that Their work is not divided up so that One is the Savior and the Others are not. Does that make sense?

John: Well, it just looks like it's identifying the same Person as the One who made us overseers is the One who purchased us with His own blood.

Pastor Doug: Well, God the Son is the One who purchased us with His blood; and it says, "feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood." So, Jesus is God the Son who purchased us with His own blood. The subject for the rest of that sentence is not the Holy Spirit. We're getting deep here. I think it's a question of semantics.

You know what I would like to do, is look at that verse in the original language because there's no punctuation in the original, and just see how it reads in the Greek. That's the best I can do with that one, John. I hope it helped a little bit.

Pastor Dick: Thanks. Okay, let's go next to Victorville, California. Matthew is a first-time caller. Welcome Matthew.

Matthew: Hi, good evening.

Pastor Doug: Good evening.

Matthew: My question is on Daniel 10, verses 5 and 6. I want to know is that talking about Jesus? And if so, then who is the Michael in 13, verse 13?

Pastor Doug: Okay. Let me read this. Daniel 10, verse 5. This is when Daniel has one of his visions. "I lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: His body also was like beryl, and his face like the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude."

This is very similar to the definition that you find of Jesus in Revelation chapter 1, I think it's verses 13 through 15.

Matthew: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: And so you're asking if that's true, then when it refers later to Michael, would that be Jesus?

Matthew: Well isn't it that person saying, "Michael came to help me"?

Pastor Doug: Yes

Matthew: So is that a different Michael?

Pastor Doug: Let me answer your question with a similar--Daniel and Revelation really need to be studied together. They are, like, parallel books of prophecy. They're the masterpieces of prophecy and one interprets the other. When you get to Revelation, you not only find Jesus identified as Michael in Revelation 12, you also find Him identified as the Lamb that is slain in Revelation chapter 4 and 5.

So, and keep in mind, there are no chapter divisions, so it is not uncommon in a book of prophecy to find several types of Christ, even in close proximity, because He is the central subject. The book of Revelation begins "The Revelation of Jesus" and He's revealed through many symbols.

So Daniel is going to have the same thing. If this God-like angel or being that you find in verses 5 and 6, because the identifying characteristics of this being are very similar to the way Jesus is described in Revelation 1, then does that mean that a few verses later when it talks about Michael, that can't be Christ?

Matthew: No, no, the question was if that--because that's what I thought--that referred to Jesus; but then it's that person that's saying that Michael talks about the "prince of Persia withstood me." It says, "but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me." I mean, that's--what I - -

Pastor Doug: Right. Oh, I see what you're saying. So it would sound like he's talking about himself.

Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Is that someone else, that's all.

Pastor Doug: No. I think that there are different ways that the Lord reveals Himself. Let me give you one other thought. It is possible, if God the Father and the Son are similar, Daniel could be seeing the Father in vision; because in chapter 7 of Daniel, it says, "the Ancient of days did sit, and one like the Son of man came before him." He saw a vision of the Father.

Now, the Father probably doesn't look very different from the Son. I mean, this glorious being that's shining like lightning and eyes like lamps of fire, that's probably very much like Jesus. So this could be the Father, who's then interpreting the dream about Michael.

Matthew: Okay, still a little confusing, but....

Pastor Doug: Well, I'm not claiming to understand it all.

Matthew: Yeah, it's just that someone told me that they said because of that, that Michael could never be Jesus. And I always believed that when it refers to Michael, that it was Jesus, so it's kind of confusing.

Pastor Doug: You're in good company. I just read through it again last week for a study. Most of the great commentators, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Adam Clark, John Wesley, they all believe that Michael is one of the ways that Christ is identified prior to the Incarnation. There is only one Being that is called the Archangel, and that's Michael. The word "angel" there is not like a cherub or seraphim. It means, "greatest messenger," "highest messenger." So it could be.

Matthew: Alrighty.

Pastor Doug: I have a book we'll send you for free - -

Matthew: Yeah, I actually have that book.

Pastor Doug: You've got the book on Michael the Archangel?

Matthew: Yeah. I thoroughly believe it. Thank you guys.

Pastor Doug: I wish that in my next edition, I ought to have studied this out and address that because it's a good question.

Matthew: Yeah, I wish you would.

Pastor Doug: Thank you.

Matthew: Alright thanks, bye bye.

Pastor Doug: Alright, Matthew.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Matthew. To Santa Clarita, California. We want to speak with Jennifer who's on a cell phone, a first-time caller. Jennifer, welcome to the program.

Jennifer: Hello

Pastor Doug: Hi

Jennifer: Hi Pastor Doug and Pastor Dick. I just want you to know that I really enjoy your program, and I listen to it every day, your archives at work.

Pastor Doug: Oh, bless your heart.

Jennifer: So it has been blessing me so much. I've been telling everybody about it.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Jennifer: This is my first time calling, and I actually have a quick question. The other day I was talking to one of my really good friends. She was wondering--she's a Christian, - -

Pastor Doug: Uh-huh

Jennifer: - - but right now she's just wondering why it's wrong to have sex before marriage. And it was funny because the day after I talked to her about it, I listened to your show, one of the archives; and a girl had called in about that. You kind of gave some Scriptural references and stuff, but I wasn't able to write them all down. But she knows that it's wrong. She just wants to know why. And also, you had said on there, you referred to the Ten Commandments and, "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?

Pastor Doug: Yes

Jennifer: And you said that adultery means any improper sexual union.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Jennifer: And I wrote that down but I was just wondering, where did you get that, because I looked it up in my concordance and I didn't see anything in there.

Pastor Doug: Well, keep in mind that the Ten Commandments were written so beautifully that every Commandment covers many areas. For instance, there's not a commandment that says don't commit suicide, but the Commandment that says don't kill covers that. That would mean killing yourself.

Jennifer: Um-hmm

Pastor Doug: The Commandment that says, "Honor your father and mother" not only means your mom and your dad, but it would mean the elders among you. Respect your elders, your spiritual fathers and mothers. Each Commandment is very broad. The Commandment that says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" does not just mean don't violate your marriage vows. Any sex outside of marriage is inappropriate; and that is called fornication.

Jennifer: Right

Pastor Doug: Fornication falls underneath the Commandment of don't commit adultery. And you've got, of course, a lot of references to fornicators not being in the kingdom. Fornication is not just adultery. It's any sex outside of marriage.

Jennifer: Right. I can see what you mean because you said violating the marriage vows?

Pastor Doug: Yeah

Jennifer: I guess, like, having sex before marriage you're doing that before you make that - -

Pastor Doug: Even if you're not married - -

Jennifer: Right

Pastor Doug: You are taking what belongs to your - -

Jennifer: Somebody else.

Pastor Doug: - - your future spouse, your partner; and you're to give them something that is sacred and undefiled, and you're taking that and your prostituting it.

Jennifer: Right

Pastor Doug: So you are, basically, violating the future relationship.

Jennifer: Um-hmm, right

Pastor Doug: So, yeah, I did a little study here and just typed in the word fornication in my computer and there are 36 references.

Jennifer: Oh my goodness!

Pastor Doug: And so, and they're all bad [chuckles]

Jennifer: [Laughs] And that's Parson's right? QuickVerse?

Pastor Doug: Yeah, I use Parson's QuickVerse.

Jennifer: Okay. That's what I heard you say. I have a--it's not a real quick question--I mean, it is a real quick question. Just basically, could you recommend any, like, material that I can use, like a commentary or concordance, anything that--I don't know, because your show has just really been blessing me. And I signed up on Bible Universe?

Pastor Doug: Yes, good!

Jennifer: I haven't started that yet but I'm going to, but um, is there anything else, any other books or tools that I can use?

Pastor Doug: Do you want books, computer, Internet, videos? We've got so many things to pick from. Have you been to our website?

Jennifer: I have several times.

Pastor Doug: Oh yeah, well. It's a candy store for Christians.

Jennifer: [Chuckles] It is, definitely.

Pastor Doug: If you're wanting audio tapes, video tapes, you can get live streaming and watch it on the Internet.

Jennifer: Okay

Pastor Doug: As you said, you can listen to the archives of this program. There are books you can read on the Internet, and a lot of it is free; and then there are videos you can order.

Jennifer: Okay

Pastor Doug: So you're on the right track. Do those lessons. People who study their way in seem to get the roots down better.

Pastor Dick: Amen

Jennifer: Right

Pastor Doug: I'd say read it. Something about reading.

Jennifer: Okay, alright, thanks so much.

Pastor Doug: Good question Jennifer, thanks.

Jennifer: Thanks, bye

Pastor Dick: A plethora!

Pastor Doug: A plethora, yeah, I like that, candy store, a Christian candy store.

Pastor Dick: [Chuckles] That's good, yeah. Let's talk with Derek in Minneapolis, Minnesota who's listening on the Internet. Derek, welcome.

Derek: Hi, I'm a big fan. I like your show a lot. It has really been helpful. My question is in Romans 11:8, and it talks about how Israel has, like, a spirit of stupor.

Pastor Doug: Yeah

Derek: And I'm kind of confused because it sounds like it's talking about, like, literal Israel, and I don't want to sound like a mean person, but what--is this spirit ever going to be unlisted? Or is it always going to be there, do you believe?

Pastor Doug: Well, keep in mind, when Paul wrote this, the nation of Israel was still an independent nation, well somewhat under Rome, but I mean they were still existing with a little autonomy. And as a nation, they had rejected Jesus.

Now, the bulk of the Christian church were all Jews in the first century. It was only the latter half of the first century it started to go to Christians. But as a nation, the official leaders rejected Christianity as a sect, a cult. That's when Paul is talking about Israel being partly blinded.

Derek: Do you think it's prophetic though? Do you think that in the end times that--it says later in Romans 11 that, you know, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, in like 11:25. I don't understand that. Then it says, "all Israel will be saved." It's really confusing me.

Pastor Doug: Well, Israel always has been a spiritual group.

Derek: Okay

Pastor Doug: In other words, was Noah part of God's spiritual Israel? Well yes, even though he wasn't circumcised; neither was Adam, for that matter, or Enoch. And even when you get to the Old Testament stories of Israel, God said not everybody saved out of Egypt necessarily made it to the Promised Land.

Derek: Okay

Pastor Doug: So there are two kinds of Jew. There are the ones who are spiritual Jews, who are really embracing the faith; and then you've got people who are genetically Jewish. I am genetically Jewish, but I hope I'm also spiritually Jewish.

Derek: I've listened to some messianic, kind of, Jewish programs just to see what they think. And they say, like, when they approach other Jewish friends with prophetic things that show that Christ is the Messiah, they just don't really compute a lot of it, or they just reject it.

Pastor Doug: Yeah, well you know, my typical Jewish friends and relatives are nauseated by Christians, sometimes, who do not use a lot of diplomacy, who kind of take them by the neck and shake them and say, "Don't you know Jesus is the Messiah?"

Derek: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: And so, typically, Jewish people have been offended because you look over history, a lot of those Nazis that worked in the concentration camps were practicing Lutherans, and they called the Jews "Christ killers." So a lot of the persecutions that Jews have experienced over the centuries have been from the Catholic church and others who claimed to be Christians.

So there's a lot of uh, they're very jaded. There's a lot of historical hurt there.

Derek: There's not anything supernatural though you don't think, either, like with the spirit of stupor?

Pastor Doug: No. The Bible tells us, "Whosoever will." God is no respecter of persons. And anybody who has an ear can hear. If people are searching, God says, "I will be found by him who searches, I am not far." He is not going to deliberately blind someone because of their genetics, or their national identity.

Derek: Okay. That's what I've been really confused with.

Pastor Doug: Alright. Hope that helped.

Derek: Okay, yeah.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call Derek. To Aurora, Nebraska. Carol is listening on KIVE. Welcome Carol.

Carol: Thank you. Thank you for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Yes

Carol: I have a two-fold question.

Pastor Doug: Okay

Carol: I was wondering what the difficult principles are for establishing priorities in your life, such as where does family come in, and outside the home activities, and church work, and all this? And also with that, I know that God needs to be first in our lives; but I'm not sure that I really understand what Matthew 6:33 means when it says, "Seek first God's kingdom." Does that mean your personal relationship, or does it mean church work, or does it mean both, or is it something else entirely different, or - -

Pastor Doug: Let me tell you what I think of when I read that verse. I think that Jesus was quoting Solomon. When Solomon had the LORD appear to him in a dream and God said, "What shall I do for you?" You can always tell what a person's priority is by what they ask a genie, you know what I'm saying?

Carol: Okay [chuckles], yeah, right

Pastor Doug: "What do you want?" and "Make a wish," and you're going to find out what their priorities are pretty fast. Solomon said, "Lord, give me wisdom, give me a good heart that I can understand between right and wrong and judge your people, your kingdom." Solomon's priority was seeking first God's kingdom and His righteousness.

He specifically asked for righteousness and God's people. If our priorities in life revolve around purity of heart, the pure in heart will see God, - -

Pastor Dick: Amen

Pastor Doug: - - that we might have the righteousness of Christ covering our sins and guiding us, and His kingdom, seeking to spread the news of the Gospel by our work, by our example. That's the place to start; and, of course, it would be in the family, where you work, in your neighborhood and expanding circle.

One more word on priorities. When Jesus gave the Great Commission, we all know He said, "Go and teach all nations."

Carol: Right

Pastor Doug: But before, in Acts chapter 1, He words it this way. He said, "You will receive the Holy Spirit and you will be My witnesses, beginning in Jerusalem, that's your home." That's where they lived. That was their local church. Judea, that was their people, their neighborhood. Samaria, that might be the people that they worked with.

They had to interact with the Samaritans but they didn't necessarily like them, or they weren't philosophically in the same boat, and then the uttermost parts of the earth. So Jesus said, "You will preach Jerusalem; Judea; Samaria; uttermost parts of the earth." It's an expanding circle.

That's how our priorities ought to be. First, seeking the righteousness of Christ that we might be like Him. Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Then our work; I mean, it doesn't

matter what your work is. If you're an accountant, then you're doing that as a witness for Christ. You know what I'm saying?

Carol: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: Whatever your work is, whether you're in full-time ministry, or whatever.

Carol: Okay

Pastor Doug: I don't know if that helps, but that gives me answers I live with.

Carol: Yeah. Well it helps a little bit. I sometimes struggle with knowing, um, I have grown children and have grandchildren; and, until recently, I had parents also. And it was a little difficult knowing, you know, if there were conflicts between demands on my time, you know.

Pastor Doug: There always will be.

Carol: Okay

Pastor Doug: This is one of my big struggles, is knowing how to juggle time with family, work, personal time or quiet time, and having that right balance. So, you're going to need wisdom and spiritual guidance all the time to manage those priorities; and it may never be clear, but you do the best you can.

Carol: Okay

Pastor Doug: Alright?

Carol: Okay. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Alright, God bless.

Pastor Dick: Thanks for the call. Let's go to Bryans Road, Maryland. Willie is listening on the Internet. Welcome Willie.

Willie: Hi Pastor Doug

Pastor Doug: Yes sir?

Willie: Yes, I've got a quick question here. I got a friend who said that membership in the church is actually a requirement for salvation. He's a member of this church that teaches that you have to be a member of his church to uh, - -

Pastor Doug: To be saved

Willie: - - to be saved. And he cites chapter 20, in Acts chapter 20, verse 28, I think - -

Pastor Doug: Okay

Willie: - - where it says, "Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, amongst...." And then it says, "which he purchased with his own blood."

Pastor Doug: Right

Willie: They believe that it wasn't the whole world that He died for, it was the church. What can you say about that?

Pastor Doug: Well, Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. God so loved the world He gave His Son. So anyone who says He didn't die for the world doesn't know their Bible. That's a basic teaching. Jesus provided salvation for the whole world. It's only the church that takes advantage of, or the church that makes use of the blood of Christ.

It says in Revelation it's the church that have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Christ poured His blood for the whole world, but not everyone takes advantage of it.

Willie: Uh-huh

Pastor Doug: But do you need to be a member of a church to be saved?

Willie: Yeah

Pastor Doug: Well as soon as you become a Christian you're part of the body of Christ, and that is the church. Do you need to have your name on the rolls of a particular church? Well I would wonder why a Christian wouldn't want to join a church, if there is a Bible-teaching church nearby, because how else are you going to be able to have fellowship and to be involved in continual learning and study and organized ministry? You need to be connected to a body.

You know, if you get a nose or a finger laying on the ground by itself, it doesn't last long. It has to be connected to a body. We're all different members of a body.

Willie: So he's, in a way, right, he's correct?

Pastor Doug: Well he's right that we should all be part of the body of Christ, but whether we have to join his church, that's the question.

Willie: No, I mean, let's say it's the true church. I mean, uh - -

Pastor Doug: Well, if their church is teaching the teachings of Christ, and my question would be if someone believes that, why wouldn't they want to be part?

Willie: They also keep on saying that if you are not a member of her church, you will not be saved.

Pastor Doug: Well there will be people in heaven who were not members of any organized church. I mean, the church of Noah would have been his family, you know what I'm saying?

Willie: Um-hm

Pastor Doug: So, can I recommend something? I've got a book called How to Survive in Church. The first couple of chapters talk about why join a church, what is church membership all about and does it matter. I think the last chapter also talks about when to leave the church.

Willie: When to leave the church?

Pastor Doug: Well it's all in the one book called How to Survive in Church. Now, it's not a book we give away normally, but if you look at the Amazing Facts' website, you'll find some more information on that. Oh Willie, I am sorry; and, others, if we did not get to your call, we apologize. Perhaps you can give us another chance next week; and we'll do our best.

For our listening friends, you can tell the music is chasing us out of this hour, but hopefully, it won't be out of your lives. We hope that you will capitalize on the many resources that Amazing Facts has. Of course, it's If you go to Google, Pastor Dick, and you type in Amazing Facts, or Yahoo!, it's the first thing that comes up.

So that means there's a lot of people out there that are using this website. It's one of the more popular websites in Christianity. Take advantage of the resources that are free, the things you can listen to, the videos you can watch; and then there are things you can order to keep for your very own.

Most of all, remember Jesus loves you!


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