The Witch of Wall Street

Date: 01/08/2006 
When young Ned Green broke his leg during the late 1800s, his mother Hedy did her best to treat it for herself thinking hospitals in New York City were far too expensive. But after a few days, Ned's leg grew worse. Hedy's shook her head, only a doctor can help you now. Knowing how much the private hospitals charge for patient care, Hedy loaded her fever-rack-son onto an old carriage and began searching from one end of Manhattan to the other looking for a free clinic where the poor could be treat
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Doug: Hello, friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact. When young Ned Green broke his leg during the late 1800s, his mother Hedy did her best to treat it for herself thinking hospitals in New York City were far too expensive.

But after a few days, Ned's leg grew worse. Hedy's shook her head, only a doctor can help you now. Knowing how much the private hospitals charge for patient care, Hedy loaded her fever-rack-son onto an old carriage and began searching from one end of Manhattan to the other looking for a free clinic where the poor could be treated for little or no money.

When Hedy finally found one, the doctor made a brief examination of the boy's swollen leg and shook his head, I'm sorry ma'am, the infection has spread so far that all I can do now is remove his leg, he said sadly, if only you had brought him in a little sooner.

Ned cried and pleaded, no, please, don't take off my leg. The doctor had no choice. The gangrenous leg had to be amputated. The frustrated physician must have thought, this poor boy will live out the rest of his life as an invalid because this poor woman couldn't afford basic medical attention. What the good doctor didn't know was that Hedy Henrietta Holland Greene was far from poor. At the time of her son's injury, she was the world's richest woman and probably the world's stingiest too. When she died a few years later, she was worth well over a 100 million dollars. That's more than 17 billion in today's money.

Also known as The Witch of Wall Street, Hedy Holland was legendary for her eccentric penny-pinching. Not only was she willing to let her son lose his leg rather than pay some small medical expense, she never turned on the heat or use hot water. Too expensive. She wore one old black dress and bought broken cookies in bulk because they were cheaper. One tale claims that she spent a whole night looking for a lost two cent postage stamp. She would travel thousands of miles to collect the debt of a few hundred dollars.

I should add in fairness, years later Hedy watched her son hobble about on crutches she finally bought him a cork leg but still it makes you wonder how somebody with so much money could neglect the basic needs of their only son. This is why Jesus said, for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Stay with us his friends, we're going to learn more as amazing facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.

Speaker 2: Welcome to amazing facts ministries Bible Answers Live with Pastor Doug Batchelor. Do you find it challenging to understand the Bible? Are there passages of Scripture that confuse you? Is it sometimes difficult to connect what you read in the Bible with what you've been taught? Then you've found the right program because the Word of God is a quick and powerful sword against evil.

Stay tuned to better understand the will of God for your life. This broadcast is pre-recorded. If you have a Bible question, lines we're open Sundays from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. Pacific time. Now, here's your host the president of Amazing Facts Ministries author and evangelist Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Doug: This is one of my favorite hours of the week when I have a chance to just open up the Word of God with people who are searching for Bible understanding. Welcome friends to another fresh edition of Bible Answers Live. If you have any Bible question, you're invited to call the toll-free number and bring your question into our studio. That phone number is 800 God says, that's 800-4637-297. Right now we have some lines are open. Give us a call, we'll do our best to give you an opportunity to put your question on tonight's show.

Also, I might ask or add that we invite you to pray for the program listen in and you can even do that by going to the Amazing Facts website. Tonight Pastor Deck David is out for the evening on vacation and I am here with Pastor John Ross who's been with us on the program before.

Good evening, John.

John: Good evening, Pastor Doug.

Doug: It's good to have you here and I'm sure you're going to be able to navigate the phones just fine but all the more reason, let's pray.

John: Let's have a word of prayer. Dear Father, which art in heaven again we are grateful for this time to gather together to open your word. We ask for your leading and guiding. We pray that you'd be with Pastor Doug as he answers the questions be with those who call in. We thank you for the technology that makes this possible. For this, we ask in Jesus name, Amen.

Doug: Amen.

John: The amazing fact that you did this evening is very interesting. Here is someone who has littles of money but is stingy and unwilling even to take care of the needs of a family her son in this case. We find that she's probably not alone in today's world of stinginess. You don't have to have millions of dollars to be stingy.

Doug: But money in itself is not evil but the Bible tells us in first Timothy 6:10, "The love of money is the root of all evil." One reason that people, of course, love money is because there's a power connected with money. This is what the devil offered Eve when he said, "You will be as God if you listen to me." People do all things for money because they think that money will give them security, it'll give them peace, it'll give them pleasure and happiness, it'll give them friends. Let's face it, some people marry for money. Some people hang around someone else for money. But this love of money people trust in money and it doesn't bring happiness.

John: It does and I think it brings more headaches and trials and things to worry about.

Doug: Probably not. I don't see it very often, it's probably been years since I alluded to it but when my father passed away, he was worth about half a billion dollars and our friends should know I didn't receive any of that. I just grew up knowing that money doesn't bring happiest because my dad drank himself to sleep every night. It's an illusion. Some people might wonder, "Well if you can't trust money, what do you trust?"

John: We have a free lesson that we'd like to make available to all of those who are listening, it's entitled In God We Trust. We can't trust in money but we can trust in God. We want to make this available free if you would call our resource number. The number is 1800-835-6747, that's 1800-835-6747. Just ask for the free offer In God We Trust. It's an amazing fact study guide and I think you'll find it very interesting on this topic of money.

Doug: A lot of bible information in there about how Christians can relate to money. Someone said, "The right attitude for Christian-" I think it was Wisely "-is to earn all you can, give all you can and save all you can." There's a balance there.

John: Jesus had a lot to say about money as well.

Doug: That's right. Someone said 10% of his teaching dealt with stewardship.

John: Yes, absolutely. Well, we have a question related to the subject of money. This is an Internet question we usually take two of them at the beginning of the program. This question is where in The New Testament do you find instructions regarding paying tithes?

Doug: Okay, that is a good question. Periodically, you'll hear somebody say, "Well there's plenty in the Old Testament about tithe but we don't know about anything in the New Testament. That must mean that in the New Testament tithes have been done away with."

Well, that's not true, there actually is quite a bit in the New Testament as well. Jesus, said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" By the way friends this is Matthew 23:23 that's easy to remember. First book in the New Testament 23:23 "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin." Those are herbs they grew in their garden in the Pharisees were so fastidious that they would pay tithe on these little herb gardens. Jesus said, "But you've omitted the weightier matters of the law judgment, mercy, and faith. These you ought to have done-" now listen, "and not leave the other undone"

He says, "Don't leave the tithe pain undone but don't forget the priority of judgment, mercy and faith." Both of Jesus and Paul and Hebrews and the number of other places in the Bible is very clear that tithe was never abolished.

One reason we know tithe is still intact the teaching is because there are some controversy over circumcision that because the New Testament Christians were leaving that behind there is a great dispute.That's why Paul is it circumcision is nothing uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God. There was never ever any dispute about tithes in the New Testament and it would have been a big issue if the New Testament church was saying it's been abolished right. But in reality, I think for the New Testament Christian tithe is not the end it's the beginning.

See the New Testament -- the word tithe means 10%. New Testament Christians were not only paying tithes, they were selling all their property. I mean really investing sometimes 80, 90, 100% into getting the word out because they were so on fire. No one even questioned tithe, it was an obvious simple fact.

John: The work of tithe is to further the poles of sharing the gospel with the world.

Doug: That's the great commission [crosstalk].

John: Second question that we have, the internet question here is, was Soul or Paul ever married? Some say that he was and some say that he wasn't. Do we have any scripture that could shed some light on that?

Doug: That's a good question cause the apostle Paul says more about marriage and the marriage relationship and marriage and divorce than any other New Testament writers and yet he never mentions his wife or being married. The fact is that the scriptures are silent on this so all we can do is speculate. It is possible that Paul never married. He does talk about having some health problem that he refers to as a thorn in the flesh but we don't know if that's connected.

It is possible that he married and his wife died. He was a widow-- a widower I should say before he began his ministry. It's also possible that at his conversion when he was basically shunned by the Jews for converting to Christianity when he used to be the greatest adversary, that his wife also treated him as a dead and forsaken. So the Bible's silent is all we can tell you but he seems like he knew an awful lot about marriage that makes one wonder.

Ross: He sure does. He wrote some beautiful passages dealing with the subject of marriage.

Doug: Marriage and love between a husband and wife and the details.

Ross: Absolutely. Well, we have some callers waiting and let's go to the phone lines if you're ready. Our first caller is Marvin. He's calling from Spokane, Washington. Marvin is on the line. He's with the internet. Marvin your question, please. Welcome to the program.

Marvin: Yes I got a confusion. [unintelligible 00:11:31] who can explain people said they was a [unintelligible 00:11:36]. It's not. How do you explain [unintelligible 00:11:40] such a place?

Doug: Alright You want to know what the bible says where heaven is. First thing Marvin is I want to tell you that there is a free offer of this book we'll send you for free that's dealing with heaven. Is for real? Because it sounds like that is your question. But there is a very real place. Now you'll hear in the Bible that talks about the third heaven. The reason that Paul refers to the third heaven is because the Jews understood the first heaven as simply the atmosphere around the Earth.

The second heaven was the place where the heavenly bodies hang. The sun, the moon, the stars. The third heaven was the dwelling place. Sometimes called paradise where God lives. That's what Paul says when he was caught up to the third heaven. He was in the presence of God there. Jesus when he went to prepare a place for us. He went to his Father's house. He went to heaven and there is obviously a dwelling place, some core of the universe where God has his headquarters.

Christian Astronomers think that maybe through the constellation Orion but there's no evidence for that. But of course, the Bible does mention Orion two or three times. But it is a real place and we'll be happy to send you that book Marvin. Heaven, Is It For Real? just call that resource number.

Ross: The resource number Marvin is 1-800-835-6747 and just ask for the offer Heaven, Is It For Real? Thank you for your call. Let's take our next caller. Karen is listening from Aurora, Nebraska on KVIE. Welcome to the program Karen, your question, please.

Karen: Yes thank you for taking my question. Last night, my son's best friend killed himself and I want to comfort the family and I went over there and I just drew a blank. I was just so sad. I was wondering if you could help me and give me some scriptures that I could share with them and you know this child, this boy was deeply troubled. I just can't see him being condemned for that. I mean I'm not the judge but could you help me?

Doug: Well that is a tragic thing and as pastors periodically we've had to conduct funerals in situations like that. One thing to emphasize for the family is no matter how much they're grieving, they must know that God loved their son even more than they do. So whatever his fate might be, they need to be assured that he grieves with them. In addition, I think it helps to also remember that man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. And whatever this young man's struggles were, he's-- the way he was tormented or whatever caused his depression, the Lord is aware of that because he can look on the inside and you know sometimes there's extenuating circumstances and that will have an effect on whatever his judgment might be.

So, encourage them with that. They're-- there's a verse and maybe this isn't the best verse to offer but King David lost a son. He was actually killed by his brother and he grieved over Amnon. But then it says in 2nd Samuel 13:39 that he was comforted concerning Amnon seeing he was dead. As you read both before and after that verse, it's almost as though it's saying David had other family that needed him. The kingdom needed him and there was still a work for him to do. He could not be absorbed in grieving. There is nothing he could do about it. So he had to commit it to God's hands.

This verse is to remind us that it is appropriate to grieve, to mourn, to experience a loss but then you just place it in God's hands and you move on. So I hope that will be of some help and you know I lost a son too. Died when he was 22 years old in a construction accident so I understand how keenly this family is grieving. But share those verses with them. Remind them that God loves them. God loves their son. That there is sin in the word and it causes a lot of heartache and that's why Jesus came to bring it to an end.

Karen: And do you know is there a book? Is there a book on suicide?

Doug: Well we don't have a book specifically on suicide. We have a book we could send you called When Days are Dark and if you call the resource number that Pastor Ross is going to give you in a minute. Tell them that you'd like to have a copy of the book we'd told you we would send to you called When Days Are Dark.

Karen: Thank you very much.

Ross: Karen, the number for the resource line is 1-800-835-6747 and the book again is When Days Are Dark. That's a book of encouragement and it's got some passages and scripture that will be a great help. Thank you again for your call. Our next caller is calling from Queens, New York and it's Gil. Gil welcome to the program.

Gil: Hey brothers this is brother Gil calling from Queens.

Ross: Hi.

Gil: And Doug how are you doing tonight?

Doug: Yes how can we help you? Happy New Year.

Gil: Oh thank you so much. I've spoken to you before many times.

Doug: Yes

Gil: I want to see if-- I know the bible says in Matthew 1:21, it says she will give birth to a son and you are to give him the name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins and we celebrate Christmas. What does the 12 days of Christmas have at all, if anything to do with the bible? The way people wrote that song like some people said it have to do with like-

Doug: On the first day of Christmas, that one? I wont to sing it for you. But I think I know what the question is. And it's actually, you heard of the Yule log?

Gil: No I haven't heard of it.

Doug: Well the Yule log or Yuletide it's a -- there was a Norwegian festival where they would take a great big log and put it in a fire and it was supposed to burn for 12 days. Those were the days that were bringing the old year to the end and the Sun was reborn. It actually has nothing to do with Christianity. But the 12 days sort of is a carry over from some of these Pagan celebrations. They go all the way back to Babylon. The song was based on the tradition that they would exchange gifts during these 12 days.

There was a Roman festival also Saturnalia and they would exchange gifts and it was a 12-day feast. That carried over into Christmas when it was sort of absorbed into the Roman Catholic church and that tradition was kept. But there's nothing in the bible. You could try to make something out of the 12 apostles or 12 tribes I supposed but that's not where it came from. Okay?

Gil: Thank you very much. I love you with all my heart.

Doug: Alright Gil, God bless and have a good new year.

Ross: Thanks, Gil. Our next caller is Josh and Josh is calling from Berry Creek, California listening on 3VM. Welcome to the program Josh, your question?

Josh: Thanks, Pastor, my name is Josh and I have a question about Melchisedec, king of Salem. It talks about Hebrews 7 and it talks about him in Genesis also. I just keep on studying all the [unintelligible 00:19:15]. Just curious if you have any answers to the-- who exactly he is or-- cause I've looked everywhere.

Doug: Yes, let me give you a quick overview. That's a good question. Melchisedec, king of Salem. The world Melquisedec means king of righteousness. That's what the name means, king of righteousness. He first appears in the bible, he comes out of nowhere from -- Abraham is on his way back from a victorious battle and he gives Melquisedec, who is not only king but his called a priest. That's in Genesis 14:18. He pays him tithe of the booty of the spoils of the war. It says that he is the king of Salem. That very region in the mountains of Hebron was later known as Jerusalem. Here you have got this king priest of Salem back in the days of Abraham. He is a type in the bible of Christ. Now Christ is the king of righteousness that’s what Melchizedek means. Christ is both our king and our priest to whom we pay tithe. Goes along with our study for tonight, in addition, it tells us here in Genesis 14 that when Abraham came, Melchizedek brought out bread and wine.

Well during the new covenant, Jesus gave out bread and wine to the church. There are a lot of parallels between Melchizedek and as he is a type of Jesus, our king, our Priest who makes a new covenant with us, the king of New Jerusalem.

Josh: I'm just wondering -- He may be the Holy Spirit-

Doug: Some people have suggested that, but evidently, he's a real person because Abraham would give tithes to a phantom.

Josh: He may be Holy Spirit in -- Spirit of God in a man.

Doug: Well, I'm sure he was a Spirit filled man but everything in the context, if we read the Bible as it speaks, it seems that he was a real man who served as a real priest in a real geographical location. He brought out real provision and he accepted real provisions. I have heard people wonder if he is Holy spirit before but if you honestly with the text that I think it stretches.

Josh: What about further down where it talks about how he has no father?

Doug: Without beginning or end?

Josh: Exactly.

Doug: Yes. You know why Paul says that, is because the genealogy of most bible characters is found somewhere. Where they came from, who their ancestors were. When the story of Melchizedek appears, he was a mystery for Jews because it doesn't say where he came from and it never mentions where he went and who is children were. When it says without beginning, it is another way he is a type of Christ but he was a real person. It's just saying that there is no genealogy of where he came from or where he went.

Josh: Okay, because I know in that chapter it's comparing the two priesthoods and-

Doug: And the Melchizedek priest.

Josh: Exactly. And it was saying how Christ is after the order of Melchizedek.

Doug: And because Christ is without a beginning or end. Melchizedek appears without beginning or end in the bible but he was a real person. It’s just as a person he has a type of Christ.

Josh: All right. One other thing real quick on it, I was reading something about the same, something about how the priest of Errand was more on ceremonial law. They [crosstalk]with the law.Ceremonial law and everything.

Doug: Yes. Sacrificing the lambs and sheep.

Josh: And where how Melchizedek was possibly the in dwelling, the love written within the heart-

Doug: Well, he is a symbol of that because he is a symbol of Christ and Jesus said, "I will be in you." So you are correct that he's a symbol of that but don't try to get away from the idea that he's a real person because he was.

Ross: Genesis 14:18 says that he was the king of Salem which was a place. He actually had to work.

Josh: King of Jerusalem. Okay, guys. Thanks a lot.

Dough: Thank you.

Ross: Thanks, Josh, we are going to the next caller who is Jeremiah and he is listening from a cell phone calling from New Haven, Connecticut. Welcome to the program, Jeremiah. Your question, please?

Jeremiah: Hello Pastors. My question is a lot of times when I speak to people, I get questions -- when I try to share with them my version of faith from the bible, they are always convicted of things that are different. But how could God condemn them and all the people who were raised in a different way when they have not had the knowledge from the bible? There is a scripture that comes to mind but I'm not sure where it is where Jesus says that “No one can come to me unless the Father has given him to me." You probably know where it is-

Doug: I think you are talking about no one comes unless the Father calls him. Is that what you mean?

Jeremiah: I think Jesus says, “No one comes to me unless the Father in heaven has given him to me."

Doug: Well, there are so many different versions out there. There may be a version that words it that way but I think that the wording you would get in King James is talking about, “All that the Father gives me"-

Jeremiah: I think I got this in King James.Is that talking about -- concern even when you talk about anyone who's already [unintelligible 00:24:48] has a certain amount of the Holy Spirit. Could that mean that people who become Christians or even claim that Jesus is the Lord that are like chosen or predestined?

Doug: Well, the question really is, how many has The Lord called? Is He only calling a few or does the bible say that many are called?

Jeremiah: What I say is that many are called but [unintelligible 00:25:11] has the truth -- The Lord's truth, has it been around -- has it been present in all civilizations throughout the history-

Doug: I see what you are saying. I believe in different degrees that God has spoken to all people. Paul says in Romans chapter one, that He even speaks through His creation, through some of the barbarians who have lived in different parts of the world that maybe never heard the gospel.

Jeremiah: All right. You get the Muslims. You get the Buddha’s and they were all raised to believe that[unintelligible 00:25:45] way to God and there has been similarities between Christianity and Muslims-

Doug: No question there are elements of truth in many different religions but there is one way according to the bible and only one name given among men whereby we must be saved.

Ross: We need to also remember that God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance.

Doug: I was going to say in the new testament when Christ began His ministry, He starts off in Nazareth by reminding them that God saved Naaman, the leper, who was a Syrian not a Jew and that he saved this Canaanite woman that lived with Elijah. And that God has His people in many parts of the world. It says He is made of one blood, all nations of man. God has spoken maybe through angels or providence or nature to different people in different parts of the world and hopefully, they live up to the light they have but the oracles of truth were only given to the Jews and then this passed through the Jews.

Jeremiah: I see and you said yourself in the previous call that there may be some extenuating circumstances and it's a case by cases thing when it comes to judgment. If the person doesn't follow the truth the way that God has explained in the bible to the letter. There may be-

Doug: Absolutely. Acts 17:30 says that the time of this ignorance God winked at. For instance, do you expect king David to be in heaven?

Jeremiah: Yes.

Doug: I do too but he had a whole oogle of wives. Now, if I go get more than one wife, I'm not going to make it because I know better. But he didn't and so God -- and some these people who have been in heaven. Abraham had slaves. I don't believe in slavery and I think that Jesus was against it but they lived in an age where God winked at their ignorance.

Jeremiah: Some people hear the truth at one time and then they just resist it [unintelligible 00:27:44] but if they hear it again, they may resist again-

Doug: Well, that's true. God looks at the heart and He judges people according to light that they have. Jeremiah, we are going to take a break. We didn't mean to cut off there but the clock does that, we don't have control over that.

Listening friends that's all this is, just a break. We are going to let you catch your breath. We are going to catch ours. Take a drink and pastor Dick is here with a pre-recorded announcement. But he has some important things to share with you and I want to remind you also check out everything that's available at the Amazing Facts Website. We have some new things there if got a pencil you might also write down,"". It's a great bible study resource website and has also some other links that will be a blessing to you. You can go online there and sign up for the Apostles and Prophecy Bible Study course and this--you got or Bible University, either one will get you there and sign up for that study. Also, in just a few minutes we are going to come back with more bible questions and stay tuned, we're not done.

Announcer: Stay tuned there is more bible answers live coming in just a moment. We would like to invite you to tune in as Pastor Batchelor teaches the word of God on the Amazing Facts Television programs. These studies are on each week on major networks like the ABC Family Channel, Black Entertainment Television, The National Network, The Inspirational Networks and 3ABN just to name a few.

Call us on for a free radio and TV guide for program times and stations in your area. Did you know, Amazing Facts also offers a free correspondence bible study course and a free catalog featuring hundreds of truth filled books and tapes? To order the material mentioned during a program or to sign up for a free correspondence bible study course, call our resource line at 800-835-6747. And friends, please remember, we are a faith based listener supported ministry. Fully dependent on God to sustain us through your prayers and financial gifts. Write us at post office box 909, Louisville, California, 95678. Or you can find us on the web the address is easy to remember it's Welcome back to Bible Answers Live with Doug Batchelor, because this is a pre-recorded broadcast of our Sunday night program, call from 7-8pm Pacific Time on Sunday's with your Bible's related questions, received clear, practical answers from the Bible of our prophecy doctor and biblical principles, call 800-GOD-SAYS, 800-463-7297. Now join us as we open our Bible's for more Bible Answers Live with author and evangelist Pastor Doug Batchelor.

Doug: Welcome back listening friends, for those who may have just tuned in, this is Bible Answers Live and as you can tell from our title, it is a live international interactive Bible study that you can participate with. We are on over 150 stations across North America, it's in Europe, in Canada, New Foundland and we get calls from all different parts of the world via the internet. If you have a Bible question in North America, it's a toll-free call 800-GOD-SAYS, we picked that acronym because the Bible is our source book, 800-463-7297 and as you heard my name is Doug Batchelor.

Jean Ross: And my name is Jean Ross and Pastor Doug we have three new radio stations that are broadcasting Bible Answers Live. As a first, we'd like to welcome them the first, W-L-M-M from Catania, Illinois, and the second one is KAVS 93.9 in Alvan Nevada and W-D-R-X in Portland, New York. We also have an internet radio station,, that is also air broadcasting the Bible answers. [crosstalk] Absolutely. So let's go back to the phone lines, our next caller is Diana, she is listening on the internet from Chattanooga, Tennessee welcome to the program.

Diana: Hi

Doug: Hi and your question?

Diana: Yes. We have been studying with some friends and we came across these verses when Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus. And my friends they don't believe--they believe that it was a vision and they don't believe that Moses and Elijah are in heaven. So we started studying several verses and I came across John 3:13 and I just had a question on that verse and if you can explain it to me.

Doug: Yes, John 3:13 says, "And no man has ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven. Even the son of man which is in heaven." Some are maybe taking this to mean that because Jesus said, "No man has ascended into heaven," that that would mean that Moses and Elijah could not possibly have been resurrected. Two things to remember Diana, when you're looking at this verse. First of all, there's a number of verses in the Bible where it speaks in generalities. In other words, there is a verse that says, "It is appointed unto man once to die." Well, that's generally speaking, the vast majority of the people on the world are going to die but there will be some who are alive when Jesus comes and would be transformed and caught up to meet Him in the air. Paul tells us that.

There is a small exception there, correct? Generally speaking, no man has ascended into heaven and come back down to earth to tell people what's going on. But there are some exceptions in that Moses was resurrected, you can read about that in the book of Jude and Elijah went to heaven in a fiery chariot and that's in II Kings 2. So when you consider the billions of people in the world, Jesus is speaking obviously in general terms there. But you might even take it one step further, there are different levels of heaven meaning it's one thing to go up into the City of God, the New Jerusalem.

But Christ is talking about someone who is in the presence of the Father and we don't know that even Moses and Elijah were dwelling in the presence of the Father. Only the Son came to declare the Father, which is in the next verse. I don't have a problem with this verse conflicting with the truth, that Elijah went to heaven in a chariot and that Moses was resurrected and they both appear to Jesus. Now when we read in Mark 9 when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mountain, it doesn't say a vision or an illusion or spirits or a dream, three people don't have the same dream at the same time.

There is no other place in the Bible where three people have the same vision. When three people witness something it's because Jesus said in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let something be established, it was a fact. He had them all there as witnesses, it was really Moses and Elijah. Does that help? By the way, maybe this is self-serving, I wrote a book about Moses and Elijah and this vision that you're talking about and it's called The Two Witnesses. And I'll send you that if you like, a free copy.

Diana: Great, yes that would be great.

Jean: All you need to do Diana is just call the resource line, it's 800-835-6747 and ask for the offer of The Two Witnesses by Pastor Doug and you will be able to get that sent to you.

Diana: Great, thank you.

Jean: All right, thank you again for your call. Our next caller is Melissa calling from Canada, Alberta. She is listening on the internet. Welcome to the program, Melissa.

Melissa: Hi, thank you. I was baptized yesterday and I was expecting, I guess some kind of a transformation and I want it. I didn't really feel like I'd receive the Holy Spirit or I don't know if I feel like I have yet still. I guess I'm just really upset because I feel like I keep -- I'm trying- I'm trying to do everything and then praying and-

Doug: Wait, wait. Do you mind if I interrupt? I already did because I've got a good news for you, Melissa. You can have the Holy Spirit right now. Do you have a Bible?

Melissa: Yes.

Doug: All right. Acts 2, what verses and passages John -- Jesus -- where Peter says repent and be baptized? 39?

Ross: Right at the beginning, yes, I think that could be. Let me check.

Doug: We're two evangelists here going from memory. Here it's verse 38. Peter says, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ." Now, you were baptized in Christ's name I expect. For the remission of sins and you might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Doesn't say that. You could receive, no, it doesn't say that. You may receive, no it doesn't say may. Let me tell you what it says, "You shall receive the gift." Now when you asked God to forgive you, Melissa, how do you know God forgives you? Do you feel forgiven or do you believe His word?

Melissa: I believe His word.

Doug: The word says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness", He said it. You believe it and then you feel better when you believe it. The feeling comes after the faith. Now, right now, Jesus is telling you, "Be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Did you get baptized?

Melissa: Yes.

Doug: Then He gave you His Holy Spirit. He doesn't promise it's going to feel like electricity. Sometimes, you know how the Spirit comes. How did the Spirit come on Jesus when he was baptized, did He come like a ton of bricks or like a dove?

Melissa: A dove.

Doug: He's gentle. And He doesn't land heavy, He lands soft. So you may notice big changes in the next few days. Also, remember after Christ was baptized, where did He go next? He was in the wilderness and the devil tempted Him. The devil is going to try to discourage you after your baptism, it's right on schedule and that's what he's doing. He's trying to make you think it wasn't real, don't believe it. It didn't really happen. Don't fall for that. Tell the devil get behind me, I did what Jesus said, I've repented of my sins, I've been baptized and I believe I have the gift of the Holy Spiritand then it will come.

Melissa: This morning -- I just was baptized by faith this morning, I lost my temper with my daughter. And I just-

Doug Batchelor: That doesn't mean it isn't real. When the children of Israel went through the Red Sea, Red Sea, Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10, it's like baptism. They went through the Red Sea, they are now free, they are no longer slaves but they got attacked from behind right after they crossed over. They got hungry, they murmured and complained, they made a lot of mistakes but the difference was, they're not in Egypt anymore, they are on their way to the Promised Land.

You have now crossover out of Egypt, you're in the wilderness, you're not in heaven yet and in the wilderness, there's going to be trials and tests, Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. Don't give up, that's exactly what the devil wants. Don't get discouraged. Pray, the Bible says if any man sins -- you lost your temper, get on your knees and say, "Lord, I believe that You've accepted me. I want my baptism to be real and lasting. Forgive me for losing my temper and give me your Spirit. Thank you for hearing my prayer. " And He will. If you believe His word, He will.

Melissa: How did in Act 8:14-17, how did they know that they were baptized when they said -- they had the Holy Spirit hadn't fallen on them until they sent-

Doug: Until the apostles came up to talk to them?

Melissa: Right.

Doug: Well, the evidence of the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, there was a power in the Spirit when the church was first born where people were being raised from the dead and healed. There was a lot more intensity of the Spirit then. I think we're going to see that. That's what they call in the Bible the former rain. In the last days, there's going to be the latter rain. Right now, we're between the former rain and the latter rains. You may not feel the same powerful impression. They hadn't experienced that but that doesn't mean that you haven't received the gift. How do you know that you've got the Holy Spirit? Galatians 5. Do you have a Bible?

Melissa: Yes, I do.

Doug: Galatians 5:22, it tells exactly how we can know. Some people think that you know you've got the Holy Spirit because of the gifts of the spirit, it never says that. They say, "Oh you've got the Holy Spirit because you speak in tongues and you can heal or prophecy." That's not proof. Here's how you find out. It's not the gift, it's the fruit. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Those things -- does fruit appear on a tree overnight? Or does it blossom and bloom and slowly grow? It grows, doesn't it?

Melissa: Yes.

Doug: All right. Well, you've been baptized, the fruits of the Spirit are going to grow in your life now. Don't be impatient, don't give up.

Melissa: [laughs] That's my problem is impatience.

Doug: Then, Lord, I want patience and I want it right now.

Melissa: Yes. [laughs] Okay.

Doug: Hey, you're going to be all right Melissa. Just trust the Lord. If you fall down, get back up again. He promises to keep His word and His Spirit is in your life, that's why you called us tonight.

Ross: Absolutely. Of course, when someone is baptized and gives their heart to God, the devil is going to try and discourage them.

Doug: Exactly, and that's why he's threatened by you and that's why he wanted to discourage you. There's a book we'll send you if you would like it. It's called Life in the Spirit. Would you like a free copy of that Melissa?

Melissa: Yes.

Doug: All right. You call the number. Pastor Jean is going to give you. Ask for Life in the Spirit. Tell him you were listening to Bible Answers Live and we'll send it to you.

Ross: Here is the number Melissa, it's 800-835-6747. Again, that Life in the Spirit, a book that's got some wonderful passages of scripture and explains what the work of the Holy Spirit is in the lives and hearts of individuals. Be sure to call and get that. Well, let's go to our next caller Kevin. Kevin is listening from Canada as well in Newfoundland in Saint John's. Welcome to the program, Kevin. Your question, please.

Kevin: Hi Pastor Doug. My question has to do with Cain. After he received his mark, what happened to him? Did somebody kill him or did he die of natural causes?

Doug: Well, the Bible doesn't tell how died. I don't think that he was murdered because when the Lord placed the mark on Cain, he basically placed it there as a warning against anybody hurting Cain in the future. Now, keep in mind, they lived hundreds of years back then. When God was talking about if any man -- Cain was worried, all that see me will kill me because I'm the first murderer.

They were talking about the posterity of Cain and the posterity of Seth that would populate the world, that someone would rise and that would someday say, "Hey I'm going to be the one who shoots Wild Bill Hickok in the back." God said, "That won't happen to you." We don't know exactly what the nature of that mark was but there is no evidence in the Bible or even Jewish tradition that Cain was murdered. We believe he lived out his life and died of old age, probably lost.

Kevin: Okay. Great.

Doug: All right. Thanks.

Ross: Thanks again Kevin for your call. Let's go to the next call. Phil is listening in San Diego, California. He's listening on KPRZ. Welcome to the program, Phil.

Phil: Hey. Hi. Pastor Doug, you gave an answer last week and I tuned in on the tail-end of your answer. I was just hoping you can repeat it and I'll take it over here.

Doug: Okay.

Phil: You were explaining the meaning of the wine from the Cana, from the wedding at Cana, then you [unintelligible 00:44:10] Jesus drinking wine on the cross. I was hoping you could repeat how you explained it. It was really good.

Doug: All right. Well, I'll do my best. First, and good question, thank you. The passage is in John 2. The first miracle of Jesus was he turned water into wine. Now, people are wondering often, is that wine? Was that fermented? You think, well, of course, it says wine. What else could it be? Keep in mind that nowhere in the typical King James Bible and most versions does it use the word grape juice? Grape juice is a modern term that came with [unintelligible 00:44:43] grape juice.

It is very unlikely that it was not what they called old wine or fermented, but it was new wine that Jesus created at the wedding. Because that wine is a symbol of his blood. The first miracle of Jesus was he gave fresh grape juice in the context of a wedding to men. The last thing that happens before Jesus dies on the cross is he tastes the sour wine and then he dies. Wine is a symbol of blood. Jesus said that at the Last Supper.

As a matter of fact, at the last supper, the grape juice that he gave the disciples there was unfermented because He said I'm not going to drink from the fruit of the vine again until I drink it with you again new in my father's kingdom. New is new wine. Christ said, speaking of the gospel, you don't put new wine in the scriptures. You don't put new wine and old wine skins. That means old fermented wine skins. The yeast will make the new wine grape juice expand and burst the skins. Clearly, that new covenant grape juice is a type of Christ blood and he made a blood transfusion with the human race. He gave us his fresh unpolluted, perfect blood and he took our sins in himself. I think that's what I said, probably new version of it.

Ross: Yes, what's amazing about that it's the very first miracle that Jesus does He gives a type of His ministry for why He's coming, the atonement, the sacrifice, it's all tied up in that first miracle performed [crosstalk]

Doug: The Revelation ends with the marriage suffer of the Lamb. I also remember I don't know if our caller is still listening but we have a book you can call and ask for. We have a sermon book I'll send you called Wine or Alcohol in the Christian. It's called Alcohol in the Christian but it deals with this subject and what I just shared with you.

Ross: The number for the resource line again is 800-835-6747. Our next caller is Steve, and he's listening on the cell phone from Atlanta, Georgia. Steve, welcome to the program. Your question, please?

Steve: Good evening. My question is about panhandling. We got a lot of panhandlers in the city here. I had a bad experience one time when I gave one of them who was holding the sign about hungry will work for food. I gave him 20 bucks and I saw him late that night at the arcade spending the money. I don't really give out anything anymore to panhandlers because now I know there's a lot of them do it just because they think it's easy money or the drug addicts or alcoholics. I want to know what the Bible says about my actions and my going to be- [crosstalk]

Doug: That's a good question. That's a good question. I'm glad you're asking that. First, let me tell you, Steve. Pastor Doug, me, I used to be a panhandler. I lived on the streets and slept in abandoned buildings and panhandled. I used to play the flute and panhandle most of the times but I felt like I was offering some public service. Sometimes, the money I got, I was so thankful, I use it to go buy food.

Sometimes, I bought beer and cigarettes. I was always thankful when people gave me money whether, no matter how I spent it. But in the Bible, there's two examples. One is, an angel appears to a devout Roman centurion. The angel says, "Your prayer and your alms are come up as a memorial for God." Alms are, the beggars used to beg and when you gave charity to the beggars, it was called alms. Well, he's commended for that.

Some of the people were genuinely poor and they really needed it for food or for their children. But then Peter and John go to the beautiful gate in Acts 3. They say, "We can't give you any alms because we don't have much. But we will give you what we do have." And they shared the gospel and healed this man. When people are asking you, you have to use discretion from one case to the next, Steve.

Sometimes, I'll meet somebody and I think they're genuine, they're asking for help and I try and help them. Sometimes, they say my car is out of gas, could I have a few dollars? I said no, but let's go to the gas station and I'll put it in your car for you if you follow me. Sometimes, they really just do need gas. You just have to pray for wisdom. Christians want to help. Jesus, he said give to him that asks of you. Every now and then you have to take a risk that someone will misapply your gift. If they do that and if you're giving with the best of intentions and they misapply your gift, that is not on your conscience and you don't lose your blessing, Steve. Because that's between them and God. You know what I'm saying?

Steve: Yes. Could I just give them food?

Doug: Yes, that's the best thing. If they say they're hungry, give them food. If they say, we'll work for food, give them work. I saw one honest individual out there on a rump and he held up a sign and that said need beer, why lie? He was just saying he can't find hidden money for beer.

Ross: I think that's all the same guy. [laughs]

Steve: I just feel terrible when I walk past them and based on my own experience with them.

Pastor Doug: You know what? Don't feel guilty if you don't give them anything because in most cases, you're right. They're often, their lives are out of control. They need drugs or alcohol. It's self-destructive. You don't want to give to contribute to their prodigal living. You become an accomplice in those cases.

Steve: That's what I think. I know that the government has shelters and programs for them to get their life in order.

Doug: Yes, but you also, as a Christian, we don't want to shunt everything off on the government. Sometimes, God will bring people into your reach and they need help. Sometimes, you might be entertaining angels, unaware.

Steve: Really?

Doug: Well, once the Bible says in Hebrews that that happens and Lot brought two strangers into his house. It turned out they were angels.

Steve: I was thinking about that because I know a lot of panhandlers that they're regulars but I've seen one not too long ago that I'd never seen before. I got a weird feeling when I [unintelligible 00:50:28] her.

Doug: Sometimes, there's sincere people, I've seen mothers out there that are desperate. They finally say, "Well, I don't know what else to do. I have no food for the kids. I'm going out on the street and holding up a sign." They really needed food for money or rent. Pray that God gives you discretion. You have to be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.

Steve: Amen. Thank you.

Doug: Great question. Thank you, Steve.

Jean: Thanks again, Steve, for calling. Now let's go to our next caller, Harley is in Harlington, Texas. Welcome to the program, Harley.

Harley: Thank you. Hi, Pastor Doug.

Doug: Hi.

Harley: Well, it's heavenly to talk with you guys. My question is regarding the purification after a woman has a baby.

Doug: Yes.

Harley: I know that in Leviticus 12, it gave us the instructions if it's a male or a female. I know that that's right after the instructions also about the food, about which food we should eat. Well, I do believe that we should keep, that we should practice that, I do believe in all of that. There are certain food that God prohibited us to eat. After that, in chapter 12, it's the-

Doug: Are you wondering if the law-

Harley: About the purification.

Doug: Yes. Are you wondering if the laws about the purification and the difference between men, women, children-

Harley: Yes.

Doug: Okay.

Harley: I know that in Luke, the mother of Jesus told, it says in Luke 2:22 where she kept her days of the purification and stuff and I'm just wondering on that.

Doug: Well, first of all, the reason Mary observed those laws is, of course, Christ had not died on the cross yet and they were still under the ceremonial law system back then. There in the book of Leviticus, you have a combination of not just the ceremonial laws, you got the health laws, you got the civil laws, you've got the social laws. There's a lot of different laws that are all bunched together and Moses just goes through them. He goes marching through them.

The laws regarding a woman, her period of separation, it was different between having a boy child and a girl child, one week for the boy, two weeks for the girl. This time of separation also was to separate them from coming to the temple. Now, here's a key, this has really helped me out. I hope it helps you, Harley. All of the laws that had something to do with the sacrificial system in the temple are ceremonial laws. The health laws existed before that.

You'll find that for instance, the health laws, God made a distinction between clean and unclean animals back in the days of Noah before there even was a temple or a Jew. Those are very basic things about what to and not to eat. The civil laws, if you're under a theocracy, we obey those laws. Then there's social laws. If your neighbor's donkey wanders away, bring it back. That's practical good sense. It varies, you just need to use a little context and common sense in deciphering was this a ceremonial law, a health law, a social law, a civil law? You know what I'm saying?

Harley: Okay.

Doug: All of these ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross.

Harley: All of the ceremonial laws were nailed, okay. Then, real quick, if I can. In Acts 21:26, when Paul was talking there in the temple is he talking about the expiration of the dates of purification. Is that the purification of what we're talking about and-

Doug: Yes, it is. Keep in mind, what Paul is doing you can also read what Paul said to the Jews, "I became as a Jew that I might reach the Jews." Paul observed some of the Jewish ceremonial laws even after they passed away so that he could reach the Jews. Paul said circumcision doesn't matter but then he went and circumcised Timothy because he said he didn't want it to be an obstacle to reaching the Jewish people. Sometimes, you just have to say, when in Rome. I don't know what other adage to use. Paul, in order to reach the Jews, he accommodated them but it doesn't mean those laws were in effect as far as God is concerned.

Harley: Okay.

Doug: Okay?

Harley: All right.

Doug: God bless, I hope that helps a little bit. Now, there's a book that we offer you might enjoy and it's called Feast Days and Sabbaths. It deals with some of the ceremonial laws and the feasts of the Jews.

Jean: Again, let me give you the resource number it's 800-835-6747. I'm looking at the time. Do we have time for one more question?

Doug: I think we should do one more.

Jean: Let's go to, Mack is listening in Texas. Welcome to the program, Mack.

Mack: Yes. There are some series of teachings that are circulating in the United States. It is saying that it was testified for blacks to go into slavery. I think that's a horrendous doctrine because whenever the Jews were enslaved or any other people, eventually it caused a corruption in the society and it caused problems for all involved. It says, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity, he that killeth with the sword or shall be killed with the sword."

Doug: What's your question? We're running out of time.

Mack: My question is, how could somebody be teaching that and they say that they're Christians?

Doug: Well, that is a good question. I think it's a terrible teaching as you say. There are many things that we see in the Bible that God winked at their ignorance but He certainly did not like, any more than God likes divorce or God liked polygamy. They have multiple wives in the Bible but that was never God's plan because it brought a lot of heartache into the families where that existed.

Slavery was never God's plan yet it's caused all kinds of mistreatment and horrible conditions throughout the Roman Empire. They had slaves. We've had it in our country. It's been in many parts of the world, still, exists in places. God dealt with a lot of these things for the protection of multiple wives and slaves but that doesn't mean He condoned those things.

I could spend more time on that, Pastor Jean, but we are out of time. Listening friend, I'd like to reserve a moment before you change the station. If you've been blessed and edified, keep in mind this is a faith ministry, 100%. We just are staying on the air because people like you say, "Hey, I'm blessed. I'm going to contact Amazing Facts, keep them in my prayers," and give it something to keep this on this station you're listening to.

You can even do that online. It's easy to remember. If you could remember the word amazing facts, just go to Take a look at all the free resources that we give out by faith. You can download our kaleidoscope in our library, make a donation online and keep us in your prayers. Most of all, we do it because we want you to know Jesus Christ. He is the truth that will set you free.

Voice-over: This has been a pre-recorded broadcast of Bible Answers Live, a production of Amazing Facts Ministries. To order the free materials mentioned during this broadcast, or to sign up for our for our free correspondence Bible study course, call our resource line at 800-835-6747. To learn more about Amazing Facts or receive a free catalog, visit our website at, or write us at Post Office Box 909 Roseville, California 95678.

We're always grateful for your notes of encouragement and don't forget, this ministry exists because friends like you have committed to be more than simply hearers of the word. Pray for us and remember your financial generosity helps us reach people around the world with the transforming power of God's word. Our mailing address is Amazing Facts Post Office Box 909 Roseville, California 95678. Join us again next week for Bible Answers Live with Pastor Doug Batchelor.

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