Christ's Death Pardons

Date: 08/05/2012 
On August 19th 2009, a burglar brandishing a knife had the shock of his life when he broke into an old couple’s home and he attacked the 72-year old man. The thief discovered his victim was a retired boxing champion.
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Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? On August 19th 2009, a burglar brandishing a knife had the shock of his life when he broke into an old couple’s home and he attacked the 72-year old man. The thief discovered his victim was a retired boxing champion. Senior citizen, Frank Corti, is still a bit handy with his fists.

When he spotted the 23-year old intruder, Gregory McCalium, in his hallway, Frank sprang into action and delivered two right hooks and a few other sundry slugs. The blows were so powerful that McCalium, who had just lunged for Mr. Corti with a knife, was looking like he had been in a car accident. The old man then restrained the dazed criminal until police arrived.

At his trial McCalium claimed that he couldn’t remember the incident, might be he had amnesia. He was found guilty of aggravated burglary and sentenced to four and a half years. After the judge told him that he got what he deserved, Frank Corti said, “I’m not a violent guy, but if you’re the type of guy who'd go after a 72-year old, unarmed man with a knife, you pretty much have it coming.”

You know, the Bible says there's a big judgment day coming and everyone will be rewarded according to their works. Stay with us friends. We’re going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you this edition of Bible Answers Live.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: We do have lines open and we are live. If you have a Bible question, that’s why we're here. Give us a phone call to get your Bible question in for tonight’s program. The number, free phone call, 1-800-463-7297. That’s 1-800-GOD-SAYS, and welcome to Bible Answers Live. My name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Good evening listening friends. Pastor Doug, let’s begin the program with prayer. Father, once again we ask for Your blessing upon this program. We recognize that the Bible is Your Book, and in order to correctly understand it, we need the leading of the Holy Spirit. So we ask Your special blessing on us here in the studio, and be with those who are listening wherever they might be. For we ask this in Jesus' name, amen.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Amen.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Pastor Doug, you opened the program by, well, telling a rather interesting story about a 72-year old man who gave the thief what was coming for him. You wouldn’t usually expect that from a senior citizen, but he did. He overcame the thief.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: He had been a champion boxer in his youth and I guess his instincts took over and he still remembered what to do.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: But it was quite a surprise for the 23-year old intruder. We hear that story and we all kind of smile when we think about a senior citizen kind of working over a whipper snapper like that because, you know, he deserved it. And the Bible is pretty clear, there's a big judgment day coming where people are going to get what they deserve, with one exception.

First, here are the verses, 2nd Corinthians 5:10. Paul says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone might receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad." That ought to make everybody out there tremble a little bit, to think that we will all receive a reward for what we’ve done; because we’ve all done things we’re ashamed of.

Then there’s Revelation 20:12, “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened." Everything we’ve done is written in a book. "And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things that are written in the books, according to their works.”

Jesus said, “Indeed, every idle word that we speak we will give an account thereof in the day of judgment,” and that’s in Matthew chapter 12. So we think, well, it makes us smile and we think about this young man getting what he deserves for attacking an old man, but have we ever done things that we regret? When you remember that the penalty for sin is death, and we’ve all sinned, we don’t want what we deserve.

The only way for us to be pardoned in this great judgment day that is coming, is to have our sins both repented of, confessed and under the blood of the Lamb, covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. That only happens by our cashing the check of pardon that Christ has offered us. We must accept the receive the forgiveness that He provides by His death.

We can’t just say, “Well He died for the whole world." You have to actually reach out through prayer, accept it, and ask Him to take your life and heart; otherwise, we will all pay for what we’ve done in that big judgment day. The Bible has so much to say about judgment. You very rarely hear pastors preach about it anymore; but Amazing Facts has a study guide to help you understand this subject, very important subject. Everybody is going to be dealing with this subject one way or another so you owe it to yourself to ask for this free, illustrated study guide we’re going to offer right now.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The study guide is entitled, Case Closed; and you know Pastor Doug, it gives hope because there is a judgment, but there is also an Advocate. We have Somebody who would step in on our behalf and defend us and that, of course, is Jesus. Learn more about this important Bible subject. Call our resource line. The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, Case Closed.

The number again is 1-800-835-6747 and the study guide again is, Case Closed. We’ll be happy to send that out. Well we’re going to go to the phone lines. Our first caller this evening is Jim. He is listening from Ohio. Jim, welcome to the program.

Jim: Hey, thank you guys very much. First of all, I love you guys and I really appreciate your ministry.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, thank you.

Jim: Pastor Doug, we got to get you to come to Ohio.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well you tell them send me an invitation. I’ll try and get there.

Jim: I definitely will. We would love to get you to come out. We've got a nice little sports building where we could have a good seminar. But anyways, my question is, I heard mentioned something about the church age is dead, and I’m kind of confused. I heard one pastor mentioned that; and then a friend of mine, he’s a pastor and I don’t understand where that’s coming from, and basically what that means.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, we try and be as discreet as we can on the program, but I think most people know that Harold Camping with Family Radio, the gentlemen who predicted the end of the world last May, he’s also the author of this idea. And the reason I have to identify him that way is because it really is a private interpretation. I don’t know of any other denomination or scholar that is saying the church age is dead, and you shouldn’t go to church anymore, and you should get all your church on his particular radio program.

The Bible does say there is a time when Babylon has fallen, and it speaks about apostate Christians; but the idea that you no longer need a church, you know, the church is the body of Christ. So the idea that we aren't to gather together and to worship Him and to be part of His body, is really hard to defend from the Bible. So I wouldn’t put too much stock in it. It’s unfortunate that--I don’t know if he’s still sharing that. I understand that Mr Camping got back on the radio and he apologized for setting dates and said he was wrong. I didn’t know if he was still teaching the church age is over and nobody should go to church anymore.

Jim: Is there anything you could send me or anything I could get to kind of help me to understand where they're coming from and to refute that?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well I don’t know. It’s hard to explain a bizarre doctrine and where they’re coming from. We can tell you what the truth is.

Jim: True.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: It’s hard to write a book on every counterfeit out there, so we just try to focus on the truth. We have a lesson called, The Bride of Christ, that talks about the church and what the true church is, and how to identify it, and the importance of being part of God’s body, His church. Pastor Ross will tell you about that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah, to get that study guide entitled, The Bride of Christ, the number to call again is 1-800-835-6747. That is the resource line, and it is, The Bride of Christ. Just ask for that study guide and we’ll send that out to anybody who is listening. Pastor Doug, we’re also streaming this program live via the internet again this evening. If you’d like to join us online if you're close to your computer, go to You can join us right here in the studio. Going to our next caller, Noberto is calling from New Jersey. Noberto, welcome to the program.

Noberto: Good evening gentlemen, good evening.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Good evening.

Noberto: I just have a question. In Matthew chapter 12, when Jesus makes mention on the three days and three nights where He makes mention of Jonah being a sign of judgment for the Ninevites; at that time He told the three days and the three nights, the significance. I know that there has been a lot of confusion of the three days and three nights from other denominations and their interpretation, how they teach it. But I just would like to know a little bit more clarification on the three days and three nights with emphasis. Thank you, and I’ll take your answer off the air. Thank you so much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright Noberto, thank you very much for your call. We have this question periodically. By the way, first thing we want to tell you, hopefully you're still listening, is that we have a book that explains this with some detail because it has confused people. The book is called, The Sign of Jonah. We’ll send you a free copy. In fact, anybody out there, if you’d like to understand this study, we’ve got a free sermon book written by yours truly called, The Sign of Jonah; but very quickly, let me read you the verse.

Jesus said in Matthew chapter 12, and this is verse 39, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and no sign will be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish; so the Son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

And people say, “Alright, well Jesus died Friday," what we call Good Friday, "and He rested in the tomb on the Sabbath," or what we call Saturday, "and He rose Sunday morning." So it’s part of three days, part of Friday and all day Saturday, part of Sunday; but it says distinctly here “three days and three nights.” So folks have tried to understand that.

You know, one of the big misunderstandings is, He says, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth." People are assuming "heart of the earth" is the tomb, and it’s not. There’s nowhere in the Bible, no other place in the Bible that "tomb" is called the "heart of the earth."

The "heart of the earth" just means "in the middle of the world," and Jesus was in the clutches of the devil, or the middle of the world, suffering for the sins of the world for three days and three nights, and that began Thursday night. When He was arrested in the garden, He said, “Now it is the hour.” The mob came in and took Him. They began to beat Him.

For the first time in Christ's life, the Father had withdrawn His protection because He was bearing our sins, and He suffered as a sinner would suffer for three days, three nights. Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, Jesus was suffering for the sins of the world. The "heart of the earth" doesn’t mean the tomb.

It’s an easy misunderstanding; but when we pray, “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,” we don’t mean "n the tomb." So it’s just a leap of judgment that people make and it causes problems. By the way, when this same statement is made in Luke, Luke never even mentions the three days and three nights. He just says, “For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the son of man will be to this generation."

Very quickly, Jonah preached for 40 days that Ninevah would be destroyed if they didn’t repent, they did repent. Jesus said that in 40 years, a generation, Israel would be destroyed if they didn’t repent. They did not repent and they were destroyed in 70 A.D. He made that prophecy in 30 A.D. There’s a lot of similarities there between the message of warning that Christ gave, and the message of warning that Jonah gave. It had nothing to do with the tomb. Alright, read the book, The Sign of Jonah. We’ll send you a free copy.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747. That is the resource line, and ask for the book, The Sign of Jonah, 1-800-835-6747. If you have a Bible question, if you’d like to call in to the program this evening, the number is 1-800-463-7297, that’s 1-800-463-7297. Our next caller is Fay and she’s listening from Michigan. Fay, welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hello Fay, are you there?

Fay: Hello

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi, good evening.

Fay: How are you? Yes I’m here.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You’re on the air.

Fay: Yes, and how are you today?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing great, and your question tonight?

Fay: That's good. I have a question that’s really been puzzling me. You now, basically, people live and then, you know, after they have lived their life they usually die, if they don’t die from something unusual or something like that. But my question is, I know there are two people in the Bible that I've read about that didn't experience that, and that was Enoch and Elijah. So my question is, for Enoch and Elijah, if they have not experienced death, where are they? Are they in heaven? Where are these people?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well yes, I believe that both…

Fay: But where are Enoch and Elijah?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Fay: Because what I'm saying is, Enoch, the Bible says Enoch walked with God and he was not. He had a close relationship with God and God took him, not to death, but he just went up to heaven with God, where God was; and then Elijah went up in a whirlwind.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes

Fay: But he didn’t die, so those are the only two people that I know in the Bible that have never experienced death. So my question is are they in heaven, or where are they? If they're not dead, they have to be somewhere?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, well let me do my best to give you an answer to that question. Your wanting to know where is Enoch and Elijah. It’s true, both of them did not experience death. We believe that Enoch is with the Lord and he is saved. He is not in this world. He is in heaven, or Paradise, probably free to roam through the universe if he wants to.

And likewise Elijah; it says "he was caught up to heaven.” We know that Elijah appeared to Jesus in Mark chapter 9 on what they call the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses. So Moses was resurrected. You read about that in the book of Jude, verse 9. So the fact that Elijah came back down and talked to Christ, I’m sure he’s got a glorified body now and he is enjoying eternity.

We do have a study, a booklet that we’ll send you a free copy of Fay. It’s called, The Two Witnesses, and it does talk about Enoch and Elijah and Moses, this whole experience on the mount of transfiguration. They are in heaven now. Appreciate your question and thanks for calling in.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The book again is entitled, The Two Witnesses. To receive that for free, call our resource line. The number is 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book, The Two Witnesses. Our next caller is E. Frank and he is listening from New York. E. Frank, welcome to the program.

E. Frank: Yes, thank you for taking my phone call. I enjoy listening to your program. I find it very interesting and I listen to your program almost every week on WMCA, New York.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well thank you.

E. Frank: My question for you gentlemen especially. I just would like to ask Doug Batchelor, Pastor Batchelor, I was baptized in a major universal world religion. When I was baptized as a small infant, they actually stated specific, canonical words, which are irrelevant in Scripture, and then by ritual of prism, and holy water was placed upon my, my forehead. Now, I’ve been going to fellowship lessons and biblical Bible lessons where I live in Manhattan; and I’ve been getting together with individuals who are Bible based. They’re God fearing, only Sola Scriptura, only Scripture only, and they’ve indicated to me if I wish to receive the Holy Spirit in their denomination. I’ve said to them, “I’m actually baptized.” I was told by a screener not to mention the denomination, but I was baptized in a major universal world religion, faith based.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well we try to be sensitive of other people’s religions, but I think you’re telling me you were baptized Catholic. Is that right?

E. Frank: Yes sir.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay, well that’s fine. I think there are a lot of people out there were. So are you wondering about being re-baptized?

E. Frank: Yeah, because in this new denominational church they explained to me that in the book of John, chapter 3, verse 15, I can actually receive the true power of Christ and receive true salvation by accepting Christ through Scripture only, and not believing in ritualistic beliefs that I’ve been accustomed to believe in my life. I was just wondering.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well first of all, let’s talk about baptism for just a second. There's no example in the Bible of a baby being baptized. Jesus was dedicated as a baby, but He got baptized when He was 30. So your parents, they may have wanted to consecrate you to God and they brought you to church and they call it baptism. But see, to be baptized the Bible says you need to be taught; you need to repent of your sins; you need to believe. Babies can’t do that.

Babies aren’t really baptized, even though they call it that. Baptism is a choice you make when you’re old enough to be taught the fundamentals of Christianity, to believe them, to receive Christ; and that’s something that you need to do as an adult. And what your parents did, it could probably be called a dedication. So, that’s the first thing.

It's true, Christ said in John chapter 3, E. Frank, “Unless you are born of the water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Now, we have a lesson on baptism and what it means to be born again and receive the Spirit. Would you like us to send that to you?

E. Frank: Oh I would truly appreciate that Pastor Doug.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Let me give you the number, E. Frank, to call; just ask for the resource. We’ll give you the name in just a moment but the number is 1-800-835-6747, that’s 1-800-835-6747. This is an important subject and so we have an Amazing Facts' study guide; but we also have a book that we’ll send out to you. The book is entitled, "Baptism: Is It Really Necessary?” You can ask for the book on baptism...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Both free.

Pastor Jëan Ross: “Baptism: Is It Really Necessary?” Then the study guide dealing with baptism is, Purity ad Power, so ask for the study guide on baptism, Purity and Power, and we’ll be happy to send that out to you, or anybody who wants to learn more about this important subject. Our next caller is Kathleen, and she is listening from Reedley, California. Kathleen, welcome to the program.

Kathleen: Thank you.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi

Kathleen: Doctor Doug, Doctor Batchelor, Pastor Batchelor, I need some help. I need for you to help me with--I work with an atheist lady. She is very blunt in her thinking and in her talking. She knows I’m a Christian. She knows that I love God and that I’m saved. I've tried to explain to her about God and how that He loves her and stuff, but it seems like she’s always trying to belittle God in front of me and say things that hurt me; because I can’t really--I can't take it when she demeans God, you know, and talks bad about Him. I just really need some help, to understand what to do.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well Kathleen, the first thing is, realize that she probably feels threatened by your faith because she knows that, if there is a God, that she’s in big trouble; because the purpose of life is, of course, preparing for etenity. And if she’s neglecting that and she’s going to face God both in the Judgment and perhaps lose eternal life, that it’s intimidating having you there.

So one reason she may be making fun of you, or mocking, or jeering, or whatever she’s doing to ridicule your faith or belittle your faith, it could be partly because of her own conscience is bothering her and that’s a way for her to justify her belief. It’s going to be hard to argue with her if she has that attitude and debate with her. The best thing you can do is pray and be a good example.

Don’t become irritated and don’t become offended if she makes fun of your faith. If you ever do say something to her, pray God will give you wisdom; and you can give her, if she’s at all open, you can maybe give her a CD or a book or something to listen to. There's some good material out there that just talks about is there a God from a scientific point of view.

Both our ministry and other ministries carry some good DVDs that just address the apologetics of how do you know there’s a God? I think there are some very powerful arguments, just based on the intelligent design that we see in the world, in the universe. So, that’s the best thing to do, and try not to be offended. Are you there?

Kathleen: Yes. The one thing that she did that really hurt me--I almost cried--is there would happened to be a Bible sitting on the table and she threw it across the room. And that just--I don’t know how to tell you how that made me feel.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, well, she may be struggling with a little bit of a demonic harassment. The devil is really threatened by the Word. And that’s just evidence that she really needs prayer and she needs help; and there are millions of people like her out there that are struggling with the existence of God. So we’ll pray that God can help you be a good witness Kathleen. That first study guide that talks about, “Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” you might ask for a copy of that and leave it laying around, and it could be a help for your friend.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The study guide again is entitled, "Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” If you’d call, Kathleen, or anyone, our resource line, that’s 1-800-835-6747, and ask for the study guide, “Is There Anything Left You Can Trust?” talking about the Word of God and evidence for believing in Him. Our next caller is John and he is listening in Louisiana. John, welcome to the program. John in Louisiana?

John: Yes sir. Hey Pastor Doug, I had a, yes sir...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You’re on.

John: Can you hear me?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup.

John: Can you hear me?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I can hear you, loud and clear.

John: Hey Pastor Doug, I had a question, okay. I had a question about the meats to eat, and it’s 1st Timothy chapter 4:1-5. Could you explain that to me?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: I’ll do my best. We've got about two and a half minutes before the break so I’m going to make I quick. 1st Timothy 4, it says in verse 1, “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, saying that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving head to deceiving spirits and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; and having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.”

Now here’s a clue, what group he's taking about, “Forbidding to marry," so this group, perhaps they forbid their priesthood to marry. "Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving. They say there are certain foods that you can’t eat maybe on certain days of the week, even though there’s nothing inherently wrong biblically with eating those foods. These are foods that are created to be received by those who believe and know the truth."

And then he goes on and says, “For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused, if it’s received with thanks giving." Now again, Paul, when he says, “Every creature of God is good,” he’s categorizing what those creatures are with the previous verse: the one’s created to be received with thanks giving.

God is not saying that every creature is something you should eat because by definition, humans are creatures, and He’s not endorsing cannibalism. God is not saying, “You can eat buzzards and cockroaches and skunks now. Just say a prayer and everything will be okay.” If anyone takes it that way, they’re twisting the Scripture from what Paul is saying here.

Paul was also dealing with an age where they were sacrificing animals to pagan idols in the market place before they were sold. And that could be clean food; I mean, someone could have a trout and it could be sacrificed; or sheep; or goat, and they’d offer it to Apollo or one of the gods before they butchered it. So a Jew or a Christian going through the market place, they might say, “Oh, am I allowed to eat that? Its been offered to a god.” Paul said, “Look, every creature is good.”

Pastor Jëan Ross: Verse 5, Pastor Doug, says, “For it is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer”. So there are certain foods that are sanctified, meaning set apart by the Word of God; and you can read about that in Leviticus, where it talks about clean and unclean meats.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: That’s right, and so he’s addressing those things. He’s not basically giving a blanket statement here that--and I’ve heard it used this way--“People can pray over anything and eat it." Now, we have a lesson that we can offer on that subject. We’ll be happy to send you a free copy of, God’s Free Health Plan. Just call for that John, and the number again is 1-800-835-6747. Ask for, God’s Free Health Plan. You're listening to Bible Answers Live.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know Pastor Doug, at this time in the program just before our break, we like to talk about some of the websites that Amazing Facts has that will aid individuals in their study of God’s Word. One of our favorite websites to mention on the program is Bible Prophecy Truth, just filled with tremendous resources. I’m looking at the topic list here on this website, subjects like, heaven, Israel and prophecy, 666, the seven last plagues, Armageddon, and much more. It’s

Pastor Doug Batchelor: There is hardly a hot topic in the Bible that you can think of that is not mentioned at this website. As Pastor Ross was saying, it’ll talk about the millennium; it’ll talk about angels; it talks about hell; it talks about heaven; just about anything you’re going to find in Revelation; or even many of the prophecies of Daniel; the beast power. Just check it out if you’ve never been there, There are videos you can watch and lessons you can study and much more. We’re going to get a drink of water, take a deep breath and we’ll be back with more Bible questions in just a moment.


Pastor Doug Batchelor: We are back, and you are listening to Bible Answers Live. If you have a Bible question, give us a call. We have lines open. That number one more time, it’s a free phone call, 1-800-463-7297. One more time, are you ready? 1-800-463-7297 will bring you into the studio with your Bible question. We are streaming on the internet such as it is. If you want to just join us in the studio visually, many people listen online we know, that is Just keep in mind that when we dress for this program, we remember that radio is not a visual media.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And so my name is Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan Ross: My name is Jëan Ross. Pastor Doug, we’re ready to go to the phone lines. That number one more time if you’d like to get your question in on the air, 1-800-463-7297. We have Shaun who is listening in Tennessee. Shaun, welcome to the program.

Shaun: Yes, Good evening. I have a question. Basically, it’s really to the point. I was apparently introduced recently to something that was defined as a false doctrine when I described it to someone, and it has to deal with the idea that prophecies all been passed fulfilled. I think they referred to--recently somebody else called it "preterism."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes.

Shaun: If you’re familiar with this concept, can you please elaborate about it?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, there are three principle views regarding how to interpret Bible prophecy, especially Revelation.

Shaun: Okay.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: One view is preterism, and the key is the word "pre." Most people that believe in preterism, believe that all of Revelation was fulfilled in the first hundred years after Christ. They think that Nero was the antichrist and that pagan Rome was the beast; and all of it really was fulfilled by that first century or first 130 years. Then you’ve got the opposite of preterism, which is the other extreme, and it’s called “futurism.” Futurism takes just about everything you find in Revelation after chapter 4 when John says, "I was caught up"...

Shaun: Right. Now I was accused to that. I think I’m familiar with futurism.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright.

Shaun: Matter of fact, the one that was teaching this doctrine of preterism, he accused me of being a futurist.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Alright, and just for our listeners let me explain what that is. Futurism typically believes that, what happens in Revelation after chapter 4 is all still in the future. Then you’ve got the “historist view.” That’s probably were Pastor Ross and I would fall, just so you know.

The historist view believes that Revelation is really covering a panorama of history from the first coming to the second coming; and that some of it is fulfilled, a lot of things are fulfilled. A lot still remains to be fulfilled regarding the last days, but it covers a little more of an even panorama of history. Matter a fact, that website that we just mentioned,, its got a number of charts, and studies, and lessons and view presentations that explain those things.

Shaun: Right. Do you mind spelling "preterism" because I’ve never really--do you know exactly how that’s spelled?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: (Laughing) you know, pardon me for laughing. You just ask, if it wasn’t for spell check Pastor Ross and I would probably be doing something else.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: But we are of two of the worst spellers. I think he’s typing it in now hoping that Google will correct it for us.

Shaun: That’s new to me.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Preterism.

Shaun: I mean, when you mentioned futurist, now I’ve heard that term used. Matter of fact, like I just said, the guy that somewhat called me a futurist, yeah, I’m familiar with that. But I just learned about this new term "preterism" just a few days ago.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Pastor Ross is...

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah, well it's...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: ...he’s got an answer.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah, thanks to Google, P R E T E R I S M, preterism.

Shaun: Oh preterism. It sounds like "preyterism."

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yup.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yeah, pronounced preterism. Now here is something interesting...

Shaun: It has something to do with past fulfilment.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Those are the things that believe most of Revelation is in the past.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Something interesting about these different...

Shaun: But that's what I'm saying. There's a local guy here that teaches this stuff.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes

Shaun: Yeah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And I think I know who that is.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Something interesting about this is if you look at the history of preterism as well as futurism, they came up in response to the Protestant Reformation. Based upon the historist interpretation of Revelation in prophecy, certain conclusions were reached that was not very popular with the established church at the time; and as a result of the influence of the Reformers, futurism and preterism came up to try and provide an alternate interpretation for Bible prophecy.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, so it was really counter-measures. You might even call it a conspiracy. People were actually hired to come up with a different interpretation because so many people were flocking out of the church of Rome, based on the historist view or the Protestant view of prophecy. That’s what Luther, and Zwingli, and Calvin, and Spurgeon; and not only just many of the Reformers, many of the great preachers of the evangelistic era, the revival time, all believed the historic view of interpretation. Futurism, really, has just been popularized in the last 50 years or so.

It became very popular with Hal Lindsey’s book, The Late, Great Planet Earth, where basically Protestants began to embrace futurism. Preterism is a little older. Anyway hey, hope that helps a little bit Shaun. I invite you to take a look at We've got some lessons there describing the history of futurism and preterism and historism, and I think you’ll appreciate that.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Next caller is Sarah and she is listening in Washington. Sarah, welcome to the program.

Sarah: Hello doctor, I mean, Doug Batchelor?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, good evening.

Sarah: Thank you for taking my call, thank you for taking my call, I have a ques... [echo]

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You’re going to have to turn your radio down Sarah. It’ll confuse us all.

Sarah: Yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And your question?

Sarah: My question is if Adam and Eve hadn’t disobeyed God and had not eaten of the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, would they still be living in the nude today?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yes, Adam and Eve would be eating from the tree of life and they would never had grown old and died. God designed them to live in that paradise forever. Death is as a result of sin. If they had never sinned, there would be no death. And I don’t know what that would mean for what you and I would be like today, but all of the future of mankind would be different.

Sarah: We wouldn’t have been born?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Adam and Eve were designed to have children. God told them before they sinned to be fruitful and multiply. Whether they would have any kids named Doug or Sarah I don’t know, but they would have had children.

Sarah: But if they were innocent, they didn’t know anything about sex.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, I think they did. It’s just sex wasn’t dirty. God told them to be fruitful and multiply. After God made all the animals and Adam named them all, he realized he had no helpmate. All the animals had a mate except him. God wanted to just prepare him for the great surprise that He was going to create a wife. He just didn’t know it was coming from his rib. It cost him more than an arm and a leg. It cost him a rib!

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: But in any event, I hope that helps a little bit Sarah. Yeah, they would have had children and populated a beautiful earth; and my question is, after the world was populated would they have slowed down on reproduction, or would we be swarming through the universe looking for new real estate?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Start another planet, yeah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Our next caller is August and he is listening from Los Banos California. August, welcome to the program.

August: Hi guys, I just happened to come across your program. I was traveling on the road and had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine from a different religion. And kind of brought up the letter of Paul to the Corinthians. It's 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verse 29 where they referred to “baptism of the dead" or "for the dead.” I really want to get a grasp on what he’s referring to because nowhere else in the Bible does it talk about baptism of the dead. So if you guys can help me out with that, it would really help me.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Let me read the verse for our friends who are listening. We know a lot of people are driving down the road as they listen. 1st Corinthians 15:29, and this is a difficult verse. Most of the problem comes because of punctuation, “Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?"

Now, people think, “What? Are we supposed to get baptized for the dead? That goes against everything the Bible says about, 'We are appointed once to die; after that, the Judgment;' and that, 'a person’s eternal destiny is sealed at the time of death' and they take their record with them. They're either saved or lost."

So if a person can be saved after they’ve died by another person being baptized in their behalf, it makes it sound like we can save others after they're dead.

Someone could be a serial killer, but we’ll say, “Oh, I’ll get baptized for him later.” It just really creates all kinds of problems with apologetics and theology and salvation. The problems is with punctuation when you go from Greek to English.

Let me read this--and I hope I don’t mess up--but let me read this as well as I can, August, the way that I think it should be punctuated. This is 1st Corinthians 15:29. “Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized, (comma) for the dead if the dead don’t rise at all? Then why are they baptized, for the dead?” So in other words, Paul is saying, "If the dead don’t rise, then why is a person getting baptized? Are they getting baptized for the dead?” He’s actually asking it as a question; he’s not telling them that they should do that, so where you put the punctuation changes it completely.

Pastor Jëan Ross: You know, the theme of the whole chapter there is talking about the second coming of Christ when death is finally destroyed. You can read that in verse 26. The point that Paul is making is if there isn’t a second coming, if there isn’t a resurrection, then what’s the point of being baptized? What’s the point of surrendering your life to Christ if this is all you have? If a person dies and that’s the end, where is the Christian hope? What’s the purpose of being baptized and committing yourself to Christ?

August: No, because you could basically live a ridiculous life and somebody else can take the baptism for you, and that’s it. You don’t have to do anything. So it makes...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, everybody could kind of pass it on, like you live a wicked life, pass it on, tell the next person, get baptized on their behalf.

August: Yeah.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’re not saved by the ritual of baptism. Baptism is like the marriage ceremony where we show our love for God. Marriage doesn’t make somebody love somebody and the ceremony of baptism isn’t going to save people who are dead; otherwise, you could probably make a lot of money saying, “Tell you what, I’ll get baptized for you when you’re gone if you pay me now.”

August: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You ought to go online and start a new industry.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We could make an app; put an app for the iPad. I’m sorry. I shouldn’t tease with something like that. But yeah, it’s a misunderstood verse. Basically, Paul is asking the Corinthians, "If you don’t believe in the resurrection then why are you getting baptized? Are you doing it for the dead?" So he’s not endorsing it. He’s just using that as an argument.

August: Right.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hey, I appreciate your question.

August: Thank you very much.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We’ll send you our lesson on baptism if you'd like. It’s called, “Baptism: Is It Really Necessary?”

Pastor Jëan Ross: That’s the book, yes, “Baptism: Is It Really Necessary?” We also have a study guide entitled, Purity and Power. Pastor Doug, I believe that specific verse is addressed in that study guide, Purity and Power. If you call our resource line, August, or anyone wanting more information on this, it’s 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the study guide, Purity and Power. Also ask for the book, “Baptism: Is It Really Necessary?” We’re going to go to Gus who is listening now in Missouri. Gus, welcome to the program.

Gus: Hello.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Hi Gus, you’re on the air.

Gus: Well, I am married to an unbeliever and she wants out of the marriage. I want to know in God’s eyes what He would think of that.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well you know, first of all, God said what He has joined together let not man put asunder. In the book of Malachi it says the Lord hates divorce. He wants us to do everything we can to redeem our marriages. I would say, Gus, first of all, do everything you can to make yourself attractive.

Now what I mean by that is not only the obvious. You always want to take care of your personal appearance, but being attractive is much more than that. It’s being attractive in the way that you treat your wife, in your consideration, in your love, in your words; and make it as a difficult as possible for her to choose to divorce.

Obviously in our culture, if a person says, “I’m out of here,” and they’ve got their mind made up, you can’t handcuff them to the house. That’s not going to make them love you anymore. You don’t have to willingly say, “Look, I’m supporting this divorce.” But I’d just do everything you could to redeem the marriage; see if they would agree to do any kind of wedding counselling or marriage counselling; and, you know, I know it’s heart-breaking to see that happen. Do you mind my asking, are there children in the relationship?

Gus: There are not, there are not. It was a short courtship, which was a mistake looking back. One of the problems she has is the fact that I am a Christian. She doesn’t quite know how to deal with that. I think she’s fearful.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Now did she know you were a Christian when she married you?

Gus: Oh yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Now, did you know she wasn’t?

Gus: Yes.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, you know what the Bible says. I don’t want to make it any worse than it already is but the Bible is pretty clear. You should not be yoked together with an unbeliever.

Gus: Isn’t there an exception, or isn’t there another part of that verse?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: No. No loop holes on that one. If you’re going to get married and you don’t have a spouse with all the options out there, why would you want to marry someone--now I’m not trying to make it worse; I’m just asking a question because there are other people in your situation. Why would you deliberately want to marry someone who doesn’t share your faith on eternity and God, if you love God with all your heart?

Gus: Well, it’s because we think we're filled with grace, enough grace to change this person, and we prayed for that. We prayed for that grace, just as the apostles went out and changed the world of unbelievers.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well you would hope that God would use that grace to change them before you get married, you know. So anyway, I think that the Bible Scripture is still true, that you want to be careful about marrying someone who doesn’t share your faith, because this problem often crops up.

Gus: Yeah.

Pastor Jëan Ross: But you know, as you mentioned, it has happened. So what do you do now? Paul does advise in 1st Corinthians chapter 7, when somebody is married to an unbeliever, the ideal is to try and keep the marriage going. You want to try and build it and, like Pastor Doug mentioned, do everything you can to be a positive witness to your spouse. But Paul also recognizes in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 in verse 15 that the unbeliever is free to depart. And he says, “If the unbeliever departs, let him depart.” In other words, you can't hold someone who is determined to go their separate way. Paul says in that case the brother or the sister is not under the bondage in such cases.

So, do everything you can to keep the marriage going and be the best witness that you could possibly be; but then you also need to recognize the independence that God has given each person, and if she does choose to go her separate way, you know, let it be.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, but according to the Bible, you need to be cognizant that if you married--I’m so glad Pastor Ross is here. He’s going to be the grace and I’m going to be the law tonight.

Pastor Jëan Ross: (Laughing)

Pastor Doug Batchelor: We try to balance grace and law. But if you knowingly, as a Christian, went into that relationship, that’s true that is she leaves, let her depart; but you are not free to re-marry as long as she is single because you went into it eyes open. There’s a book I just wrote on this and we’ll be happy to send you a free copy of that Gus. It’s called, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage, A Biblical Perspective. In fact, anyone out there, if you’re wondering about what does the Bible say on this subject, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage; and I think you’ll find it encouraging.

Pastor Jëan Ross: The number to call is 1-800-835-6747, and the book again is, Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage. That’s one of our more popular books Pastor Doug, and that’s a question that we frequently get on the program. So call that number, ask for the book on marriage and remarriage and divorce. Our next caller is Nick and he is listening from Pennsylvania. Nick, welcome to the program.

Nick: Hi Pastors, how are you?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well.

Nick: Jude 1:9, in regard to Michael the archangel.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay.

Nick: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.” When I went over to the Greek of "archangel," it came up as "a chief of angels;" and then I went back to Daniel, and then the Hebrew, "Michael, who is like unto the Lord." I’m trying to get some kind of closure here...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Trying to get a grip on who Michael is?

Nick: ...on how he could be Jesus Christ.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Yeah, you’re just trying to better understand who Michael is?

Nick: Yes, yes please.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Okay. Well for those who have not heard me answer this before, please put your seat belt on. We agree with the Bible scholar, Matthew Henry, who said that, “When you do the detective work, it’s hard to escape the evidence that Michael is an old testament name.” That’s what you call a Christophany where Jesus appears in the Old Testament.

He appeared as this chief messenger. Jesus is not an angel. The word "angel" means “messenger.” Michael means “the one like God.” Archangel means "the highest" or, "chief.” Christ was the greatest messenger who is as God. So when you look at the evidence--now very quickly--it tells us about this powerful being, this angel-like being that appeared to Joshua, sometimes called "the angel of the Lord.” Joshua took of his shoes and went to worship him because the angel said, "You are on holy ground."

Well, Gabriel told John not to worship angels in the New Testament, in Hebrews and in Revelation. It tells us that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel. The Lord will descend with the voice of the archangel, the Greatest Messenger. That’s when the Lord comes. It tells us that the Lord does the resurrecting.

You can read in Daniel 12 when Michael stands up, the time of trouble begins, and he is "the great prince that stands for your people," the one who intercedes, Michael is. So, you just start adding all these things up. It tells us that there’s a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fight with the dragon. "Dragon" is a symbolic word for the devil; it makes sense that "Michael" is a symbolic word for Christ.

We’re not saying that Jesus is an angel. Jesus is God Eternal. He is the Creator. He is the almighty Son. But the word "angel" is one of the many ways Christ is identified. We have a book on that subject. Do you have a thought Pastor Ross?

Pastor Jëan Ross: Yes, the word "archangel," sometimes that throws a person off, but the word "arch" means “above" or, "over" or, "in charge of." So Michael is the archangel. He's the one above, in charge, the commander of the angels. We’re not saying Michael, or Christ, is a created being. He’s not an angel, but He is the one in charge of the angels. He’s above the angels. He’s commanding the angels.

Matter of fact, Daniel 12 talks about Michael being the prince, who's the archangel; so He's ruling the angels but He’s not an angel. He’s a prince. The verse you mentioned Pastor Doug, Jude chapter 1, verse 9 refers to Michael as the archangel, and 1st Thessalonians chapter 4:16 says that, “Jesus has the voice of the archangel,"...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: And Revelation 12...

Pastor Jëan Ross: ...and that's His voice that raises the dead in Revelation 12 as well. If you’d like to receive that book the book is entitled, “Who is Michael the Archangel?”

Pastor Doug Batchelor: “Who is Michael the Archangel?”

Pastor Jëan Ross: “Who is Michael the Archangel?” We’ll send it to you for free. The number is 1-800-835-6747. You can ask for the book, “Who is Michael the Archangel?” I’m wondering, do we have time for one more caller?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Let’s try a quick one.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Alright, we've got Scott who is listening in California. Scott, welcome to the program.

Scott: Hi, how are you guys?

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Doing well, do we have a quick question?

Scott: Sure. I read Ivor Myers' new book on translation. It basically goes over everything. On page 120 it talks about translation and getting out of the world before the seven last plagues. And I’m just, I don’t know, I know Elijah and Enoch were translated but I’m not really sure, you know, if that’s biblical; or if that’s, you know, I don’t know where to even go with that. It confuses me, because I was with a friend today and he, basically, he didn’t think it was in the Bible. And you know, I have several things...

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Let me just jump in here, we’re not going to have a chance to finish. The one example you find where God’s people will be translated, that means to be caught up without dying. Instead of dying and then being resurrected and going through that process, you do it without passing go, you just immediately get your glorified body.

That’s in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 where it says, "The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God; the dead in Christ will rise and we who are alive and remain....” Here is the translation, “...we who are alive and remain will be caught up." So we don’t die. We immediately get our glorified bodies. In the twinkling of an eye we're caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

And that’s the translation that I think brother Myers was talking about in his book. There’s not another special group that’s translated while everyone else goes through the final events of prophecy. There’s just one group left and they're translated. As the Lord comes they're caught up. Isn’t that your understanding?

Pastor Jëan Ross: And yet, Moses and Elijah who were taken to heaven; that’s the only two that we know of that the Bible mentions that were taken to heaven without seeing death.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Well, Moses died.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Moses died.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: You mean Elijah and Enoch.

Pastor Jëan Ross: Sorry, Elijah and Enoch. That’s what I mean. Yeah, they were taken to heaven without seeing death, sort of a symbol of those who will be alive when Jesus comes and are translated to heaven.

Pastor Doug Batchelor: Right, some are dead and raised like Moses, and some are alive and caught up like Elijah. Hope that helps a little Scott. I think that we have used up most of our time for tonight’s program. We just wanted to thank you again for listening, friends. If we did not get to your call tonight, God willing, we’ll be back and give us another chance.

We want to also remind you that, as you probably know, this program is 100% supported by listeners like you. We know you’ve probably heard that speech before, but we really mean it friends. If you want to keep us on the air, let us know. We want to hear from you, and make a donation to God bless until next week.


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