John Colter

Date: 03/18/2007 
In 1803, John Colter was hired by Lewis and Clark to join them on their epic expedition as a hunter. In fact, it can be argued that Colter kept the historic party from starving because of his amazing ability to hunt and chase down wild game.
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Pastor Doug Pastor Doug: [music] Hello friends, this is Doug Batchelor. How about an amazing fact? In 1803, John Colter was hired by Lewis and Clark to join them on their epic expedition as a hunter. In fact, it can be argued that Colter kept the historic party from starving because of his amazing ability to hunt and chase down wild game. After leaving Lewis and Clark while trapping in an area inhabited by the Blackfoot Indians, Colter and a partner were captured. The natives quickly killed his comrade but decided to do something more entertaining with John.

They stripped him and kept asking him if he could run. He told the natives that he was slower than a snail. Actually, he was known as one of the fastest runners in the entire Kentucky region. As the Blackfoot warriors stood armed and ready, they signaled him to run for his life. At first, he loped out real slow for about 200 yards and then he broke out into an all out sprint. After about two miles, he had outrun everybody except one brave that was still with him. Colter stopped suddenly so that the warrior almost tripped over him.

He quickly dispatched the warrior and evaded the other Blackfoot. Somewhere along the way, making his way back to the trading post, he discovered the Yellowstone region. When he described the geysers and the marvels he had seen to the other trappers, they teased him, calling the place, Colter's hell. In 1808, he returned to the rich trapping area around Yellowstone, but he was again captured by the Blackfoot. He prayed to God, if he would just let him escape, he'd never return. Incredibly, he did escape again and he settled down to farming, neighbor to Daniel Boone.

John married, but in 1812 when the United States declared war on Great Britain, Colter enlisted, fighting under Daniel Boone's son, Nathan. Sadly, a year later, he died from an illness while in service to his country. After his death, his remains were shipped back to Missouri and to his wife, Sally. However, she was too poor to provide a proper burial, so she simply left him laying, in state, in her cabin and she soon moved away to her brother's home.

Amazingly, the body of this forgotten hero continued to lie in the remote cabin for the next 114 years as the house slowly disintegrated around him. This champion of the Lewis and Clark expedition and pioneer of Yellowstone was nearly lost to history until 1926 when the ruins of the cabin were discovered with his bones, as well as a leather pouch portraying his name.

Afterwards, his remains were gathered and buried, with honors, on a bluff in New Haven that overlooks the Missouri river. Did you know the Bible talks about a hero that postponed his burial for over 200 years after his death. Stay with us friends, we're going to learn more as Amazing Facts brings you, this edition of Bible Answers Live. [music]


Pastor Doug: Somewhere up there, about 23,000 miles above the Earth are these geocentric satellites that are ricocheting this message that comes from Sacramento, California and it bounces down two stations, about 200 of them all around North America and via the internet all over the world. This is a live interactive program called Bible Answers Live, brought to you by Amazing Facts and if you've got a Bible question, we have some open phone lines. It's a free phone call. Call right now and you could have a pretty good chance of getting your question on the air. That's 800-GOD-SAYS. 800-463-7297, and as mentioned, my name is, Doug Batchelor.

Pastor Jëan: And my name is Jëan Ross. Good evening, listening friends. Let's begin with prayer. Dear Lord, again we thank you for this opportunity to study your word. We ask that you be with us. Jesus said, "We shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free." So, tonight, we pray that you would guide into an understanding of truth. Be with us, be with those listening and we ask that we will not only discover truth, but more importantly, we'll see Jesus and with this we ask in his name, Amen.

Pastor Doug: Amen.

Pastor Jëan: You mentioned in your fact that opened the program, about a burial that was postponed in the Bible for over 200 years. Now, I know who that is, but tell us a little more about that.

Pastor Doug: Well, I'll tell you what. You know what I might do is I'll read the last few words in the first book of the Bible, Genesis. Most people know the first few words. In the beginning, God. Let me read the last couple of verses, Genesis 50:24. "And Joseph said to his brethren, "I am dying, but God will surely visit you and bring you out of this land," meaning the land of Egypt, "to the land, which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob." And Joseph took an oath from the children of Israel saying, "God will surely visit you and shall carry and you shall carry my bones up from here."

So, Joseph died, being 110 years old, and they embalmed him and he was put in a coffin in Egypt. I always thought it was interesting. Book of Genesis begins in a garden. It ends in a coffin. That's what sin did to the world. And that tells us that the children of Israel, they embalmed Joseph. They carried his remains around with them from, well actually, they stored them in Egypt for the remainder of their captivity and slavery during the exodus.

They carried his bones, then will carry his bones for 40 years through the wilderness, carried his bones during the exploits of Joshua conquering the promise land. Not until you get to Joshua 24, it says, the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel had brought up out of Egypt. They finally buried at Shechem. Someone might wonder, "Well, that wasn't very nice of them to carry his bones around."

Another amazing fact. It's too short for a whole program so I'll just throw this in. Many of our friends have heard of the great, well he was a missionary, but even a greater explorer, David Livingstone. When he died, his two friends that were very loyal, they buried his heart under a tree in Africa and I forget the country where it was. Was it Zimbabwe? [crosstalk]

Pastor Jean: You know, I'm not sure.

Pastor Doug: Near Lake Victoria, but I forget where it was.

Pastor Jëan: Okay.

Pastor Doug: And, but they then carried his body, they mummified it. Basically hung it up to dry and then they wrapped it up, carried it 1,000 miles to the coast. It was shipped to England. They identified it and buried it in Westminster Abbey. But his friends carried it for months, because they promised they would bring his body back to his family in England. That didn't bother John Colter, that he was lying there in the cabin. It didn't bother Joseph and it didn't bother David Livingstone.

The Bible says, "The living know they'll die, but the dead don't know anything." Once they die, they're sleeping that dreamless sleep until the resurrection. A lot of people are confused about death and they're spooked by it. In the Bible, we find a lot of comfort regarding the truth about death and we would like to give you a resource and I believe it's the first time we've ever offered this. A free book, written by Joe Cruz. Tell us about it, Pastor Jëan.

Pastor Jëan: Yes, this is a great resource for those wondering what happens when a person dies, and it's entitled Absent from the Body. It comes from that verse and scripture that speaks about being absent from the body, but it does explain the truth of death.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Pastor Jean: What happens when a person dies? Do they go to heaven? Do they go to hell? And it's free. Just call the resource number, 1-800-835-6747 and ask for this booklet, written by Joe Cruz. It's entitled, Absent from the Body and that we'd be happy to send that after you.

Pastor Doug: Right. That verse is 2nd Corinthians 5:8, where he talks about absent from the body. A lot of people wonder what that means.

Pastor Jëan: Yes. What exactly does that mean? All right. You know, Pastor Doug, we'll be good. We're going to take a few internet questions, but why don't you briefly share with us about that verse that you just quoted, absent from the body. Perhaps, there's listeners wondering about what that is. [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: Present with the Lord. Some people wonder, if you sleep until the resurrection, then why does the Bible say, "Absent from the body, present with the lord." And if you go right to be with Jesus as soon as you die, then why do we need a resurrection? People go around and around chasing their tail with these various verses. It's simply this, friends. When a Christian dies, their next conscious thought is the resurrection because we don't live in a dimension of time once we die.

The next thing that happens is, where we have the second coming. Some further proof of that would be King David who died a thousand years before Christ and it says he slept with his fathers [crosstalk] a thousand years later. Yes. Acts 2, Peter says, "David is dead, buried, not ascended in heaven." Of course this is after the resurrection. But for David, even though it's been 3,000 years now, how long will it seem? Moment, twinkling of an eye, at the trumpet, He comes forth.

His next conscious thought, when he leaves this body, when this physical body dies, is a resurrection in the presence of the Lord. So, it is a very true verse. Paul was beheaded by Nero, and it's been 2,000 years. Not for him though. His next conscious thought is the resurrection. Well, has the resurrection happened yet? No. Not in the dimension of time in which we live. It's the future. Second coming is when it happens.

Pastor Ross: Good. If you have further questions about this, again, we want to encourage you to get that resource called, Absent From the Body. Just call the resource number, 1-800-835-6747. We have two questions tonight. The first deals with this topic somewhat. It says, is the last trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15:52, the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15?

Pastor Doug: The last trumpet you find in 1st Corinthians 15, is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4. When it says, "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God." That's a resurrection trumpet. There are a number of trumpets that you find in Revelation. The Seven Trumpets in Revelation, are very similar to the seven trumpets.

Matter of fact, the only times in the Bible you find the phrase seven trumpets, are in Joshua when they marched around Jericho, the Book of Joshua, and in Revelation. The seven trumpets were telling about the military conquest of the promise land. Trumpets were often used for military, 1st Corinthians 14, Paul says, "If the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who can prepare for the battle?" In Revelation, you got seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets.

The seven churches represent the religious history of the church from the first to the second coming of Jesus. The seven seals are more of a political history of the church from the first to the second coming. The seven trumpets outline a military history from the first to the second coming. The seventh trumpet, while it is at the end of time, is not the resurrection trumpet. It is something distinct.

Pastor Ross: It Braces that time period just before the second coming. You see some of the imagery associated with the second coming, but it does begin a short time before Jesus actually comes. Because it deals with judgement, and the opening of the arch someone in heaven. It's just before the second coming of Jesus, but it's connected with the event.

Pastor Doug: It's not a resurrection trumpet, or you would have six other resurrections in the seven trumpets.

Pastor Ross: That's right. It's different. All right the next question. There's been a lot of talk in the news this week on gay marriages. What does the Bible says about that?

Pastor Doug: Well, this is obviously not a politically correct question, but we would rather be Biblically correct, that marriage in the bible is consistently between a man and a woman. It's part of producing the families. The reason the government even gets involved in marriage is largely for the protection of families. Two people of the same sex cannot procreate.

I mean, they might try and find ways around it through adoption and things, but Biblically, it is considered a perversion of God's design for men to become sexually involved with other men, and women with other women. The Bible calls it an abomination. It's called confusion. And the very strongest terms in the Bible are used to denounce that.

It's sensitive, because I know there are a lot of pastors, I know there are a lot of people out there that just struggle with those tendencies. And I've got a theory that a lot of it has to do with some of the breakdown in the family of the absent strong male leaders and our culture also I think contributes to that. We have a book that give us more Biblical insight on this.

We get a lot of questions on this, and we want to be as delicate as we can, because God loves people who are struggling with these tendencies of homosexuality, just like he loves people who are struggling with inappropriate heterosexual temptation. They need the grace of God to get the victory. There's a book that gives some very clear guidance written by Gary Gibbs called, Return to Sodom.

It has a lot to say about the obvious push for people who are clamoring for recognition and acceptance from something the Bible clearly identifies as inappropriate. That's probably more initiative said, but that's what the Bible teaches. [crosstalk]

Pastor Jean: Now if someone wants more information on the book--

Pastor Doug: Romans 1, you can look in Leviticus. There's just a plethora of scriptures, request the book called, Return to Sodom we'll send you a free copy.

Pastor Ross: Okay. The number to call is 1-800-835-6747, and the book, Return to Sodom. All right, we'll go to the phone lines. Brenda is calling from San Diego, California. Listening on 12:10 AM. Brenda, welcome to the program.

Brenda: Thank you. I believe what you say about the resurrection, and that Jesus will raise the dead from their graves, but what about those of us like me, who plan to be cremated and scattered at sea?

Pastor Doug: Well, we get this question frequently Brenda, so don't feel at all embarrassed about it. People wonder, with the high cost of funerals today, folks sometimes challenge, is there a biblical problem? Keep in mind, the Lord told Adam, he says, "Dust you are, and to dust you'll return." That word dust there is interchangeable with the word ash in Genesis. Typically in the Bible when someone died, they were buried, but there are a couple of exceptions one being Jonathan. And when you think about it, and Jonathan is the son of Saul.

When you think about it, and Jonathan was cremated, and David actually commended the men of Jabesh, Gileadthat burnt Jonathan's bones. Because he thought that was more dignified than what had happened. When you think about it, when a person is buried, unless they're mummified or embalmed in some special way, the body returns to dust. God is not using the old body in the resurrection. He's not looking for the old parts like a Lego to reassemble us for the resurrection.

God is going to give us new bodies when he returns, but there are many martyrs who were burnt at the stake, and their ashes were scattered. There are Godly people by the hoards who probably died at sea, and who knows where they are now. They've been devoured by beasts and so forth. There's really no command in the Bible that says don't be cremated. The typical example is burial, but because we don't have a command to the contrary, I don't believe that we should teach that it's a sin. Did that help you at all?

Brenda: Yes. So much.

Pastor Doug: All right. Well, I'm very thankful to hear that. You may enjoy that study guide that we mentioned tonight, Absent From the Body. It's got some good scriptures on the subject of death.

Pastor Ross: All right, thank you Brenda. Mae is listening via satellite from Hanover, Pennsylvania. Mae, welcome to the program.

Mae: Hi, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Evening.

Mae: Yes, my question is on Isiah 28:10 about, "Precept must be upon precept. Precept upon precept. Line upon line, line upon line. Here a little, there a little."

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Brenda: What is exactly are they talking about? Are they mocking people mocking them, or what exactly does it mean?

Pastor Doug: Well, the previous verse helps us. It says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge, and whom shall he make to understand doctrine." And then it says, "Those who are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast." In other words, those who are not just living on the milk of the word, but they're learning to dig into the meat of the word, you must study precept, that means a Bible principle compared with principle. And he says, "Compare it with more than one."

Now, the Bible says, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, so Isaiah repeats this. "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept. Do what witness. Line upon line, line upon line. Here a little, there a little. Going through the Bible, comparing the precepts, comparing the scriptures," that's how we're to study and develop doctrine.

Mae: Okay.

Pastor Doug: It's not have someone like spin their Bible around, throw it in the air, open it up, and point their finger down with their eyes closed and say, "What does this mean?" Some people study like that. It's private interpretations. It must be comparing scripture with scripture.

Mae: Okay, so and verse 13 says, "That the word of the Lord was to them." The Lord was telling them that.

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, Isiah is saying that the people, it was to them, precept upon precept. There was a time when they read the word of God and they believed it, but it wasn't anymore by Isaiah's time. He's using the word past tense. The people are being reproved, because they no longer were treating the word that way.

Mae: Okay. So precept itself, does that mean law upon law?

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, precept is a principle or an ordinance of teaching. Biblical precepts.

Mae: And line upon line, means that you go-

Pastor Doug: Verse upon verse. Yes, even in the Hebrew writing, they had one line over another.

Mae: Okay. I thought that was right.

Pastor Doug: It sounds like you're on the right track.

Mae: Okay. Thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Thank you. That also makes me think of the verse in Daniel 12, where it says, "Running to and fro, and knowledge will increase." Going back and forth-

Pastor Ross: At the study. Walter, is listening on the internet from York, Pennsylvania. Walter, welcome to the program.

Caller: Hello.

Pastor Doug: Hi.

Walter: -My call. I have a basic question on, I had heard recently that the end of Mark 16, and there's also the story of Jesus saving the woman from being stoned, were not found in the earliest writings of the Bible, but has been found. I was curious to what you thought about that, and also, if you could follow up with any recommended readings.

Pastor Doug: Well, it's interesting, I just did a study with somebody yesterday on the history of the bible. Some of the manuscripts, I think the Textus Receptus does have the story in John 8, about the woman caught in adultery. But the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus I guess most of the other manuscripts did not have that. But they believed, many scholars believed the Textus Receptus was translated from earlier manuscripts than were available to the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts.

And that really the story was in there but over time whatever reason it ended up being deleted or lost. Sometimes things were scratched out, but I believe the story is in there and I think that woman was Mae Magdalene who was caught in adultery. Then the last verses in John 16, that's another disputed verse because there are some manuscripts where it doesn't appear.

Again I believe it's there and it's consistent with Matthew 28. Where it talks about the Gospel going into all the world. But in Matthew 16-- Mark 16 it also says, "You'll take up serpents and if you drink any deadly thing it will not hurt you." Well, that's consistent with what happened to Paul when he got bit by serpent and it didn't hurt him.

Walter: Okay.

Pastor Doug: I tend to believe that the King James Version that was using the Textus Receptus manuscripts I think is very accurate.

Walter: Okay. [crosstalk]

Pastor: You're well as far as recommended reading there's a book by his name is Wilkerson. You can get reprints, it's not currently being published but it's a good-- it was a college, from Emanuel Missionary College manuscript on the history of the bible. There's a number of good resources out there. Amazing Facts, here I am. [laughter] We got a book called the Silent Witness. The Silent Witness, we'll send you a free copy if you like?

Walter: That would be great.

Jean: Well here I am, dah. [laughs]

Pastor Jean: Call the resource number, Walter, and we'll get that to you at 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the book on the history of the bible and we'll be happy to send it to you.

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, it's our book called, The Secret Witness.

Jean: The Secret Witness and we'll send that out. Our next caller is, Annette, and she's listening on 3ABN from Castle Rock, Washington. Welcome to the program.

Annette: Thank you very much. I have a question for you about Jeroboam, in 1st Kings 12. And I just wondered, I was reading and it sounded like to me, he had a lot of similarities with the beast in Revelation in Daniel. In that, he set up idolatry. He set up false holy days, false priesthood and by offering himself, or sacrifices himself he united church and state. I wondered if that was a legitimate comparison?

Pastor Doug: Well, I don't know if you came up with this on your own but you're on track. Through history, many have made some parallels between the split of the kingdom of Israel. At one time they were united and strong and then they split and the Northern Kingdom kind of got into idolatry. The Southern Kingdom tried to stay strong and they compared it to Catholicism and Protestantism. Because there's a repeat of a lot of the same dynamics.

Annette: No. I just was reading it and it seemed similar to me.

Pastor Doug: Well, you know you're not the first one who spotted that. [crosstalk]

Annette: So I'm not original.

Pastor Doug: Well, yes, I know there's nothing new under the sun, but I have seen that before and I found out I wasn't the first one. There are very many similarities between Jezebel and the woman in Revelation 17. Again, Jezebel and her daughter, Athaliah and Revelation it's got a mother of harlots and you got Herodias and her daughter danced to persecute God's prophets, a lot of similarities.

Annette: Jesus talked about Jezebel to the second churches.

Pastor Doug: Yes. Another example.

Annette: Okay. Well, thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: You're on the right track. Keep going.

Annette: Okay. Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thanks.

Pastor Jean: John is listening on KPIZ from San Diego California. John, welcome to the program.

John: Hello, Jean, and how are you?

Doug: Hi. Very well.

John: Sir, I wanted to ask you this, I've been studying a book that gives Ussher's time chronology for the earth. For example, ESD, Adam created the 4004 BC and the flood 2048 BC and so forth.

Pastor Doug: Right.

John: And I'm just wondering and I've read other literature where they say there's gaps in the genealogies. What position do you take on that?

Pastor Doug: Well I think Ussher's chronology is probably as close as you're going to get unless someone makes some big discoveries. I'll tell you where one of the gaps is. You can add up all the ages in the bible and get to within a certain ballpark, but for whatever reason when it gets to Noah, it says and Noah lived whatever it was 600 years and he had three sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Now, it never tells how old he was when the oldest was born as with all of the other genealogies it just kind of leaves a blank and we don't believe that they were triplets.

I mean, it's the only other way they could all be born the same year. It doesn't call them that. You'd think there would be some comment if Noah's wife had triplets. It's hard to pin the date of Shem who we believe is the first born and so there's a little gap there and that means that date can float a few years one way or the other but not too many years. Bishop Ussher's chronology of about 4004 BC is frequently used just because it is a guideline. Now there are some very interesting landmarks, John. You've got about 2,000 years from creation to Abraham.

Abraham interestingly enough was born, 2004 BC. So you got 2,000 years from Adam to Abraham. You've got 2000 years from Abraham to Jesus who was actually born 4 BC. I know that confuses people but Christ was born earlier than I had first calculated. Then you got the last 2,000 years which is the history of the church so you got 2,000 years of the patriarchs. Abraham comes along 2,000 years of the Hebrews. Then Jesus comes along ,2000 years of the church and Revelation says, 1,000 years we'll live and reign with Christ total of seven. Very interesting study. Does that make sense?

John: Yes sir.

Pastor Doug: Okay. So Ussher's chronology is a good guide, but do think it's off probably a few years just because there's some blanks that we can't fill in.

John: What are the parameters? How far out-- I mean, you wouldn't go million years would you?

Pastor Doug: Oh, no. Well, you know the planet may have been here for eons. When God says that he created the heavens and the earth in the beginning of the Bible, that doesn't mean 6,000 years ago, He made the mass of rock here. It tells us when He began His first day of creation, this chaotic orb was already here. It was void and without form. The minerals and material of earth may have been here for a long time before he actually began separating the light from the dark and all of that.

John: Thank you.

Pastor Doug: All right.

John: Thank you.

Pastor Doug: Thank you.

Pastor Jean: All right. Eugene is listening on WMCA from Brooklyn, New York. Eugene, welcome to the program.

Eugene: Yes. Hello?

Pastor Doug: Hi, Eugene. We've got a couple minutes before our break, so how can we help you real quick?

Eugene: Yes. I would like to know can you watch TV on the Sabbath?

Pastor Doug: Can you watch TV on the Sabbath?

Eugene: Yes. mean Sabbath?

Pastor Doug: Well, that's actually a very good question. TV is really an instrument that can communicate information audio or video. You can watch bad things on the TV. You can watch good things. Amazing Facts has a lot of TV programs. It's good Christian programming. I suppose pure in nature programming and so things that are holy that you are watching would probably in keeping with the Sabbath. Last Sabbath our family watched a program on the Christian bible translator, Teendale. That was very inspiring. We thought that was appropriate Sabbath viewing.

There are some things that would be obviously things that are not holy, it's a holy day that's what you do. So hopefully it's what you're watching. Can you read on the Sabbath? A book is a communication tool what depends on what you're reading. Can you listen to something on the Sabbath? It depends on what you're listening to, so you wanted to be holy, that's all. Okay, listening friends you hear music that just means we're taking a break so don't change the dial, because we are coming back. We're going to have some important announcements.

In the meantime, if you are able to get a pencil and a drink of water, write down our website, it is proven to be a tree of life for many people. It's simply one of the more popular websites on the internet Christian websites You'll find Bible studies there. You'll find archives of this program. You'll find free literature for your home bible studies and much more. We'll be right back.


Pastor Doug: We're back and friends if you're just tuning in this is a, Bible Answers Live, it is a lot of fun. It's a live interactive Bible study program, where we are taking questions right off the air, we scarcely know what's coming next. And it's fun to just look at the Bible on computer, we have a force to search the Scriptures and various resources to find the truth about the truth. And Pastor Jean, you got a new station you want to welcome?

Pastor Jean: Yes. We'd like to welcome to KAY 1090 AM in Little Rock, Arkansas. Now at the beginning of the program you mentioned we're on more than 200 stations. Yes. I think it's around 250 if I remember, right.

Pastor Doug: I was being careful, but, yes it is probably closer to 250.

Pastor Jean: Okay. Plus one more. So if anyone's listening from Little Rock on KAY, we would like to hear from you.

Pastor Doug: I should probably add there are a lot of people out there that enjoy the program and they on their own sponsor the station in their community. And so, we've got a lot of friends who want to thank out there who are putting the station on and it's actually gone beyond what we even know. And overseas people they captured the signal on the internet, or they captured on satellite, and so it's on hundreds of stations overseas in some of these third world countries, where English is a second language.

Pastor Jean: That's right we had someone contact us from Korea and they said, they listen to Bible answers live every week on the internet so- [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: Yes. It's a thrill hear these reports.

Pastor Jean: -so greatly. You know, another important thing I want to mention has to do with the websites, Amazing Facts, the number of outstanding websites.

Pastor Doug: Yes. I always mention the flagship website, or dot org. But we have a lot of websites that have been helping people in their study. There is one website that we opened with a question about death. A lot of people, I mean we're all hidden that way, we might want to know what the Bible says. And it's called,

Others worry about the punishment of the wicked and they think that God is unkind or unjust and there is a study called-- a website simply called, A lot of questions on the Sabbath, You can find links for many of these good Bible study websites by going to the amazing facts home page and look under links and you'll find all good study material for your study groups.

Pastor Jean: All right. Thank you my next caller is Mae and she is calling from Bismarck, North Dakota. Probably little cooler there than it is here in Sacramento today. Mae, welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug: Mae, you’ve been patient, you still there?

Mae: Yes.

Pastor Doug: Good. We're on the air.

Mae: This is Bismarck.

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, are you in Bismarck?

Mae: Yes.

Pastor Doug: This Mae, yes, that's who we are talking to.

Mae: It's good to hear that.

Pastor Doug: I know there’s more than one Mae out there but you're the one, you're on the air and your question.

Mae: Well, I'm Mae. M-A-E.

Pastor Doug: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, you know what? Pastor Jean and I are aging and our eyes aren't very good and they got your name on a computer screen and so we're going to blame the Microsoft Company.

Pastor Jean: We inserted an R there it seem. [laughter]

Mae: Okay.

Pastor Doug: They spelled it right.

Mae: My question is, I was reading John 3, because I'm reading the Bible through.

Pastor Doug: Good for you.

Mae: And I'm on the 13th verse and it just jumped out to me, I don't understand it and I wondered if you could explain that?

Pastor Doug: Let me read it for our friends.

Mae: All right.

Pastor Doug: "No man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven." Now someone might be wondering, well how can it say, "No man ascended to heaven?" Didn’t Elijah go to heaven in a firy chariot.

Mae: That’s my question.

Pastor Doug: Didn’t Enoch go to heaven, wasn't he taken? Well, in the Bible when you say heaven there are many different ways the word is used sometimes heaven simply means the atmosphere around the Earth. Sometimes heavens means the Solar System. The third heaven Paul refers to is talking about the dwelling place of God or paradise. But the very presence of the Almighty, where the angels are there saying, "Holy, holy, holy."

We don't believe any man has been in that presence of God's glory except Jesus who came from the right hand of the father. He says, "I can tell you what God is really like because I am the only man that has dwelled in the blazing glory of the Almighty.” That’s different reference to heaven Christ was talking about the very presence of the father.

Mae: I see. So when it comes to Moses, Elijah and Enoch.

Pastor Doug: They're up in glory but I don't know that they have been in the presence of the father the way that Jesus was. And also Christ statement we need to take it in its broadest sense generally speaking no man has been in heaven in the presence of the Father.

Pastor Jean: You know, the whole discussion that Jesus is having with Nicodemus revolves around truth. And Nicodemus is almost challenging Jesus, "How do you know the truth?" Jesus says, "No one has ascended or has truth has come down from heaven except He's in heaven," speaking of himself and then of course He says that He has the truth. It's also a question of truth and authority, who has the authority to teach and share truth. And Jesus is referring to himself as the one who's come from heaven thus He has this understanding.

Pastor Doug: Right. Good point.

Mae: Well, if you don't have a background, I found it a little-- I felt a little uneasy to believe that.

Pastor Doug: Right. Well, sometimes you read these statements especially after they've gone through a translation on the surface and it can raise a question mark. That's why the Bible is precious you got to do a little bit and you find it upon- [crosstalk]

Pastor Jean: Line upon line, and precept upon precept.

Pastor Doug: There you go.

Mae: Yes.

Pastor Doug: I hope that helps Mae.

Mae: Well, thank you very much

Pastor Doug: Thank you. I appreciate your quick question and your waiting.

Pastor Jean: All right. Steve is listening and WMVE from Brighton, Minnesota. Welcome to the program.

Steve: All right. Thanks for taking my call.

Pastor Doug: Hi, Steve, and your question?

Steve: Pardon me?

Pastor Doug: Your question?

Steve: Yes. My question is sort of like the last one. I was wondering if there's any scripture in the Bible that could tell me that I was never in heaven in the form of an angel or anything like that before I was born.

Pastor Doug: Well, I think the burden of evidence would actually be on the other side, why would anyone think that we existed in heaven before we were born? There's no scripture that tells us that, so why would we be suddenly having to prove something that it's never been an issue?

Steve: Okay. There's nothing in the Bible that--

Pastor Doug: Nothing in the Bible tells us that we preexisted our birth on earth.

Steve: Okay.

Pastor Doug: Now there is one church out there ostensibly Christian as our Latter Day Saint friends, the Mormons, believe that the year when there were these disembodied spirits out there that before our birth on earth. But that's just like eastern reincarnation, it just isn't taught in the Bible.

Steve: Okay. So the Bible I know there are some verses that say we were in God’s mind before we were born.

Pastor Doug: Yes. And that's simply saying that God knows all things. God said to Jeremiah, He said, "I knew before you were even born that you were going to be a prophet." Well, that's the eternal knowledge of God. That doesn't mean Jeremiah was floundering around out there without a body waiting for one to be created.

Steve: All right.

Pastor Doug: Nothing in the Bible teaches that that's that comes from a Eastern mysticism combined with Christianity and there's no scripture that supports that.

Steve: Or the devil. [laughs]

Pastor Doug: Yes. Exactly. We're created beings and we have a beginning, only God is without beginning and that's the Jesus, the Alpha and Omega. We do have a beginning, we're created I don't carry.

Steve: Okay. Well thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Thank you, Steve. Good question.

Steve: Okay.

Pastor Doug: I appreciate that.

Pastor Jean: Mike is listening on WMCA from Rockland County, New York. Mike, welcome to the program.

Mike: How do you do?

Pastor Doug: Good. How are you?

Mike: Fine.

Pastor Doug: Your question.

Mike: I'm interested in knowing, how long it took Noah to build the ark?

Pastor Doug: Well most people believe it took 120 years and the reason for that is Genesis 6:3.

Mike: Genesis 6:3.

Pastor Doug: Yes. The Lord said, "My spirit will not always strive with man for he is also flesh and yet his days will be 120 years." In other words mankind had turned to great wickedness. And you can read where it says and in Genesis 6:7, the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created." Then it tells us but Noah found grace from the time that God called Noah, man had 120 years before the flood came, so it was approximately 120 years in building the ark.

Steve: Thank you. It's- [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: That shouldn't surprise us. I heard there are some churches in Europe that took 400 years to build.

Steve: Yes. So this is Genesis 3:6.

Pastor Doug: Yes. Well, it starts with Genesis 6:3.

Steve: Six verse three. I'm sorry, yes. Thanks a minute.

Pastor Doug: I appreciate it. And that will free up another phone lines. Friends, hey, we’ve got a couple of lines open, if you want to get a call tonight give us a call 800-GOD-SAYS, you get a good chance of getting your call on tonight 800-463-7297 and who's next pastor?

Pastor Jean: We have, Lee, listening on WITA from Knoxville, Tennessee. Lee, welcome to the program.

Lee: Hello. Hello Pastor Doug, it's a privilege to talk to you, finally. Yes. My question has to do with, I guess how-- why so many without mentioning denominations and everything, why so many mainstream churches preach in the eternal punishment? Either, you're going to live eternally, either you're going to be with the Lord, or you're going to be burning in hell. And every since I was a little boy, I just couldn't picture that God would do that to someone.

Pastor Doug: Well, you're on the right track. It is a teaching that is-- It's found its way into the church back in the dark ages when a lot of Christians sort of commingled their religion with Roman and Greek mythology. They took the stories about Pluto, the God of Hades and they superimposed the devil. And they've got the devil being in charge of hell, and you won't find a scripture in anywhere that says Satan is in charge of hell. Satan in Revelation is going to be cast into the lake of fire.

Before I forget, we have a lesson that's called, Is The Devil In Charge of Hell? That study guide gives you a lot of good scripture on this, Lee, but very quickly, you've asked, why there's so many believers? There are some difficult verses. If you look at-- let's suppose you look at 100% of the verses that talk about the Lake of Fire, you will find that 96% of them make it very clear that the wicked are destroyed in hell. But then there are 4% that leaves some confusion. Because it says things like that wicked are burned with eternal fire and someone says, "Well, what does that mean?"

Well, that simply means that the result of the fire is eternal. There's no second chance. Then in Revelation, it talks about them being burnt with unquenchable fire. What does that mean? Doesn't that mean the fire goes on and on? No. It tells us Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with unquenchable fire or eternal fire. The gates of Jerusalem were burnt with unquenchable fire. Well, they are not still burning today? If you take those four verses that leave a little doubt you can resolve them very easily.

The other 96 verses are very clear, that God says, "You have two choices. Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." It's either perish or life. The penalty for sin is death, the gift is eternal life. We don't get to live forever in Hell, or live forever in heaven. It's death or life. The wicked says are cast into the lake of fire.

If this is the second death, then God says there is no more pain neither sorrow nor crying. How can there be a torture chamber through eternity when God says there's no more pain. When he says all things are made new, how can all things be made new when they're still old sinners roasting? You see what I mean?

Lee: Pastors, teachers are-- explained this to a lot of my friends.

Pastor Doug: You need that study guide. It's got all the-- Not all, it's got a lot of good proof text in it.

Lee: They just-- they're were brought up that way and they believe that-

Pastor Doug: I know and they're led to believe it's some kind of denial of the faith not to believe in an ever burning hell. But when you really think about it, how horrific is that that a God of love would take these creatures that he's created, That are already naturally bent toward sin and because they don't get the victory to burn the majority of them. Because few there be that find it in a torture chamber through billions of years burning and writhing. I mean it's a terrible doctrine such churches use this to manipulate people with fear, but your Bible doesn't teach it.

Lee: Right. Well, I myself see that. I'm a Bible student myself and I've been studying a long with you. I love you your program. I love amazing facts. It's just I would like to be able to get that across to-- as people who think that you're going to burn forever, they have friends there or--

Pastor Doug: I know. It's I know some people think that their loved ones are down there burning right now and it's tragic. Some people have been driven insane with the idea that a lost son or daughter is down burning and it just is an awful doctrine. That's what you call a doctrine of devils, but we'll send you that study guide, Lee, and it's simply called, Is The Devil In Charge of Hell. Call the number and we'll send it.

Pastor Jean: The number is 1-800-835-6747. Pastor Doug there's a good study guide that goes along with that one dealing with the subject of death entitled, Are the dead really dead?

Pastor Doug: That's right.

Pastor Jean: Those two go together. Is the devil in charge of hell? Are the dead really dead? Call the resource number 1-800-835-6747 and ask for that. We'll be happy to send that out to you. Our next caller is, Henry, and he's calling from Chattanooga, Tennessee listening on WFLI. Henry, welcome to the program.

Henry: Well, thank you. I appreciate you taking my call, Pastor Doug.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Henry: I was wondering who are the poor kings that will arrive to the earth in the end times that are described in Daniel 7:17?

Pastor Doug: All right. Let's go there real quick. Daniel 7:17, these great beast which are four, are four kings, which will arise out of the earth. Well, in Daniel 2, he has a dream of these four major minerals that represent the empires. Kings and empires were interchangeable. The first being Babylon, Mino Persia, Greece, Rome. Then the Roman Empire kind of gets split thing and goes through a change. It goes from iron to iron and clay. If you get to Daniel 7, it talks about the same four powers.

Which is the lion, the bear, the leopard, and then the strange composite beast with iron teeth, which once again is Rome. These are the four major empires that when occupy and influence God's people. The children of Israel were occupied by the Babylonians, by the Persians, by the Greeks and then by the Romans when Jesus was born. Then, of course, the Roman Kingdom, sort of, disintegrated and in its place was the Roman church all through the dark ages. But this is the the four powers that are being spoken of here. We've got a whole study guide on that.

Pastor Jean: Yes.

Pastor Doug: I'm trying to remember-- We've got the whole study on Daniel 7, that I think would be a real blessing for you. Matter of fact, if you go to-- it's the Who Is The Antichrist? In our lesson, it's a very explosive lesson called, Who is the Antichrist, it goes into Daniel 7.

Pastor Jean: Chapter seven, yes. And if you'd like more information on that call the resource number, it's 1-800-835-6747 and ask for the Amazing Facts, study guide, Who Is The Antichrist. Basically, it's a commentary on Daniel 7. It speaks about the four beasts.

Pastor Doug:Yes. Did that help you with your question, Henry?

Henry: Well, a little bit but not much. [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: What are we leaving out for you?

Henry: Well, in Daniel 2, Daniel says to king Nebuchadnezzar, "Thou art this head of gold." And when I looked up King Nebuchadnezzar dynasty, there's exactly four kings. There's a little fulfillment with King Nebuchadnezzar and his dynasty. I do follow how the four kings also represent four Kingdoms, but as I read Daniel 7, it looks like as it was in the initial fulfillment, four literal King that are four literally kingdoms. It looks like it goes back to four literal kings again in the end time. Sort of a mirror image of Daniel 2.

Pastor Doug: Well, the leopard that you find in the third kingdom with the four heads, is a parallel for when you get to Daniel 8. It talks about that goat that had the four horns and the Angel actually calls it, Greece there. As you delve into that, I think it really has a lot of support. That it's the same kingdoms Daniel's vision is-- It's like Revelation. It's looking at the same truth from different angles and using different images but it's the same four kingdoms that are prominently mentioned.

Pastor Jean: Of course, that's the focus of those nations that persecuted God's people throughout history.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Pastor Jean: It repeats in different phases. And each time Daniel 2, Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 and so on, there's more information that's given in each vision. Fills in some more of the details to give us a clear understanding and again these four kingdoms represent these nations.

Pastor Doug: I think most of the Protestants scholars recognize that the four kingdoms of Daniel.

Pastor Jean: Absolutely. All right. Our next caller is, Tony and he's listening on KFIA from Sacramento, California. Tony, welcome to the program.

Tony: Hi, first long time listener, first time calling. God bless you.

Pastor Doug: Thanks for calling, Tony, and your question.

Tony: My question is about the rapture. Is there rapture or in the second coming? What is the difference because I'm kind of confused, I'm in the middle. I don't know what to believe.

Pastor Doug: Well, the second coming, Well, first of all, when we say rapture it's talking about when we are called up to meet the Lord in the air and you don't really find the word rapture in the Bible, but the teaching in 1st Thessalonians does tell us that we're called up to meet him. The big question is, is it a secret when-- does it happen secretly does life go on for seven more years after the rapture? And many Christians don't believe the popular left behind scenario.

Matter of fact the Christian church for the last 1900 years did not believe that. They believe that when the second coming happens, that the world is destroyed and life does not go on except for the saved. And if you read and 2nd Peter 3, Tony, and you start about verse 10 it says, "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout-- No I'm sorry I am reading-- that's 1st Thessalonians.

2nd Peter chapter 3, "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements melt with fervent heat in the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up." So when the Lord comes as a thief, it's not a secret because it says the very heavens dissolve with the great noise. A noise heard throughout the heavens. The elements melt. The earth is burned up. There's nothing secret about it. See what I'm saying?

Tony: Yes.

Pastor Doug: So most Christians agree there's a tribulation. Where they disagree is thus the tribulation come after the Rapture? Or does the tribulation come before the Rapture? And the rapture or the second coming is the the final crescendo. We are in that group that believes that the tribulation comes before the second coming.

That's why it tells us in Daniel 12. "Michael stands up. There is a great time of trouble such as there never has been. And at that time that people are delivered." Jesus says in Matthew 24 and in Mark 13, "He that endures to the end will be saved." We've got a tribulation to endure and then we have the ultimate deliverance. And we've got that lesson Pastor Jean that talks about the second coming, we'll be happy to send.

Pastor Jean This one's called the ultimate deliverance. It deals with the second coming and the secret rapture and like, it's 1-800-835-6747. And ask for that resource, the Ultimate Deliverance, Dealing With The Second Coming of Jesus. Our next caller is Kerry, and he's listening on WDNX from Luka, Mississippi. Welcome to the program.

Pastor Doug: Hi Kerry. There you are. You're on.

Kerry: Yes. Real quick. I ask a question and hang up and listen on the radio. But I was curious. In Exodus 35:3. God gives direction to the Israelites that they are to kindle no fire in their dwelling place on the Sabbath. Can you explain it to me please.

Pastor Doug: Yes. That's a good question. First of all some people get confused and they are wondering, was the Lord saying? That they had to sit there and shiver in-- on a drizzly day in their dwelling places all through the Sabbath. That sort of would be miserable. The word Kindle there means to make. Keep in mind they had no matches back then there was quite a bit of work involved and rubbing sticks together to get a fire going. They could have a fire on the Sabbath, but they were kindle it before the Sabbath.

And especially when they moved up and they didn't need it as much in the desert regions of Sinai. But when they moved up into the land of Canaan, which has a climate-- they've got the four seasons and a little more like Northern California, it can get real cold, it snows in Jerusalem. And they were allowed to have a fire on the Sabbath day. But the Lord said, "Get all your wood in advance," just like they gathered their bread in advance. Build the fire before sundown. Keep it going throw a log on before you go to sleep, so you don't have to worry about building the fire and kindling it. So I think Frank took his answer off the air. So hopefully that helps a little bit.

Pastor Jean: Those that are thinking about that same verse. What was involved in the Jews in putting a fire together in the wilderness. That in the desert. Finding wood is going to be a challenge in and of itself. [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: Yes. That's right.

Pastor Jean: So they are going to have to go hunt for wood on the Sabbath. Gather all the wood and the fire. It's a lot of work.

Pastor Doug: Matter of fact, one man in particular was found out gathering wood on the Sabbath and he was stoned. They went to Moses and said, "What do we do?" And God said, "Put him to death," because he could have gathered it other days and they would rest that day.

Pastor Jean: The seriousness of-- or the importance of the Sabbath satisfied in that.

Pastor Doug: God obviously believes it's in-- Makes a difference.

Pastor Jean: All right. Terrence is listening on KFI from Fairfield, California. Terrence, welcome to the program.

Terrence Thank you very much. My question is for Doug. Doug I recently completed my first reading all the way through the Bible and I was thrilled with the experience, I can't wait to do it again.

Pastor Doug: Praise the Lord.

Terrence: And my question is kind of personal, it's not technical. What has it been like for you as your level, you have such a detailed understanding of all these things. What has it been like for you and what can I look forward to as I read it over and over again. What has is been like for you?

Pastor Doug: Well, I praise the Lord for what he has shown me. But the more I study the more I know I don't know. There's a time in your life I think during the teenage years you think, "Uh-huh, I understand everything now." But I think it's a sign of wisdom as you go along, you realize how little you do know. And I feel like I know woefully little about the Bible especially compared to some of the great minds that I study.

Some of the great patriarchs and the reformers, boy, they knew their Bibles inside and out. But it's been a thrill. I mean having the word of God in your heart. that's how we get Jesus in us. He said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life." And it just defines your purpose and philosophy for life. And that is I think the greatest value. It gives you a yardstick by which to measure everything of importance.

Terrence: And yet you still feel like you have far to go, yes?

Pastor Doug: Oh, yes. Digging in the Bible is like trying to scoop all the water out of the ocean. You'll never plum its depths.

Terrence: Very interesting. Thank you very much.

Pastor Doug: Thank you, Terence. What do you think pastor? We have time for one more?

Pastor Jean: Let's try. Let's go, Dennis, is listening from Michigan. Dennis, welcome to the program.

Dennis: Yes. How are you doing tonight?

Pastor Doug: Quick question, Dennis. How can we help?

Dennis: My question is, is there a purgatory?

Pastor Doug: That's an easy question. [crosstalk]

Dennis: A waiting place before you went the Kingdom of God.

Pastor Doug: Yes.

Dennis: The reason I'm asking this is, my wife passed away two years [unintelligible 00:56:08] and she was a strong born-again Christian. I had a dream about her, about a week ago, where she had come to me as just a vision. And while we just sat down and talked, she brought the very piece to my heart. And one of the questions I asked her is, "What's heaven like?" And she answered me by, "We are not allowed into the kingdom yet." And- [crosstalk]

Pastor Doug: Well, listen we have music and I don't want to drop you before I get to answer. I'm very sorry for your loss. I know that you're hurt from that but in a quick answer I would simply say, the teaching and the word purgatory appears nowhere in scripture. It is a manufactured doctrine. The Bible says that the dead sleep until the resurrection. Matter of fact of the book that we started the program with will be a real comfort to you, Dennis. Paul will send you a free copy and it's called, Absent From The Body.

And call, 800-835-6747, Dennis will send you absent from the body, or The Dead, Are They Dead. Listening friends, that wraps up our time for this week. We pray that you'll keep this program in your prayers. We love to hear from you. Go to Amazing Facts and drop us a line and take advantage of the website. We can only be here with you once a week, but we can be with you through the website all week long. Remember, Jesus is the truth that sets you free.

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